Conspiracy! The Show 371: A Bunch of Questions For the CIA

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I.
Hey everybody, welcome to

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Conspiracy the Show.
I’m your host, Adam Todd Brown

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joining me as Co host this week.
Oh, my favorite Co host of all.

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No Co host, but I do have a
couple of fantastic guests

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joining me this week, former CIA
agents, current hosts of the

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Mission Implausible podcast,
Jerry O’Shea and John Cipher.

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How’s it going?
Good, good.

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I want to start by correcting
you and arguing with you.

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Let’s get with this donnybrook
going.

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I’m into it.
We are CIA officers.

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Oh, OK, not agents, yes, that we
can explain that later.

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And of course you’ve got us
instead of interesting guests.

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But yes.
Yeah, FBI agents are the people

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who work at the FBI.
The people who work at the CIA

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are officers and then are the
spies that we might run

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overseas.
We call agents.

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Oh.
OK.

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Yeah.
That makes sense.

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So this will be a pretty light
hearted episode, just a sort of

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Q&A thing.
I have some questions.

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We put some questions out to our
rowdy audience and they came

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back with some stuff.
I guess I’ll just sort of trade

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off.
I’ll just direct one question to

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Jerry, then a question to John.
Then you don’t have to fight

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over who.
No, we like to fight over.

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We like to.
Fight.

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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Before we get started, John, you

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must hear this all the time, but
John Cipher is the perfect name

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for someone working in
intelligence.

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I suppose so.
I don’t like it.

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Doesn’t mean cipher means zero.
That’s sort of like AI don’t

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know.
But isn’t it also?

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Yeah, for something or whatever.
All right, Yeah.

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For breaking codes and enigmas,
your name might as well be Jimmy

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Secret.
The last math class I took was

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like in the 11th grade, so I
don’t know.

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They weren’t going to let him
into the agency and then

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somebody looked at his name and
said, how can we not?

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Right, exactly.
So with that all out of the way,

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let’s get into some questions.
The first one, this one is from

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me.
In the description of your show,

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it’s mentioned that you were
both part of creating conspiracy

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theories at the CIA.
Can you explain that a little

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bit?
OK, I’ll start.

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So again, I’m going to disagree
with you.

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It’s not so much we created
conspiracy theories, it’s that

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we dealt in small like small C
conspiracies, like basic things

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like I’m under, you know, you
can’t go to a North Korean and

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say hi, I’m in the CIA.
I want to talk to you.

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You have to say, oh, I’m a, you
know, I’m a businessman and

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would like to talk to you.
So cover would be a or, you

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know, covering.
So we don’t say that we’re CIA,

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so we’re not killed or
kidnapped.

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So these are small conspiracies.
And actually the show is to

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deconstruct or debunk big
conspiracy theories, which we

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know from doing.
Small conspiracies are really

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hard to do when by and large
don’t really work.

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So some conspiracies, but not
really conspiracy theories.

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Oh, OK, yeah.
Can you give me an example of

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anything or would you have to?
Would I have to be killed if you

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told me?
You in your audience?

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Yeah.
You won’t have to be killed.

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No, I mean, in fact, I’m trying
to think too like, for example,

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we sort of use it as a predicate
for the show, but it isn’t

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because I think a lot of the
public thinks that one of the

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things the CIA does is these big
sort of conspiracies to try to.

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But we do use small conspiracy
in the sense that Jerry said,

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for example, cover like.
So if we’re trying to, you know,

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get into an Al Qaeda is doing
and there’s no Americans in the

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tribal areas of Pakistan where
bin Laden was or where Al Qaeda

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is, we might have to send ACIA
off officer with, I don’t know,

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Pakistani background or Arab
background or something

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pretending to be a businessman
to or to be, you know, go out

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there to, you know, like you, if
you saw the movie Argo, right?

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So we sent people to Iran
pretending to be there to shoot

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a movie.
So that’s like, you know,

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creating a little mini
conspiracy to fool the people

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that we’re trying to operate
against.

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And so we, and like Jerry said,
most of these conspiracies that

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we would do be very small
because, you know, the more

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moving pieces you try to put
together, the more chance of

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failing earlier, the more chance
something will go wrong.

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And so, you know, we’ve learned
that if we’re going to try to

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trick someone, if you will, the
simpler the better.

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You know, if I’m going to use a
fake name, it’s better to use my

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real first name in a fake last
name so I can answer to John or

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something like that.
So little things like that.

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Now that makes sense.
Well, Speaking of conspiracy

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theories, I guess Jerry, first,
are there any of the really big

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conspiracy theories that you
believe?

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Do you have a pet conspiracy
theory that is your favorite

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that you think might be?
Real might be real.

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OK, so so yeah.
But these, I think, I don’t

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think it’s conspiracy theory.
If you believe it’s real, it’s

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not a conspiracy theory, right?
But just that it becomes just a

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conspiracy.
So yeah, I think there’s a lot

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of them.
So for example, and I’ll preface

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it by saying for years, decades,
big Tobacco, right, was

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investing in junk science to
tell you that, you know, it’s OK

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to smoke cigarettes, right?
And all the evidence that was

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coming up that cigarettes kill
you and cigarettes killed my

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father, right?
He died of emphysema.

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There was a conspiracy to
throttle that information, that

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health information.
And right now I think I would

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say that there is a conspiracy
amongst, I’d be at a loss to

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tell you exactly how it works
and so forth.

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But I think there’s a conspiracy
to throttle climate science,

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right?
I mean, 99% scientists are

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saying, look, man made climate
change is a real thing.

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And in fact, in this current
administration, they are both

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claiming that because of climate
change we have to have Greenland

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because the polar ice is melting
and ships are going through it.

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It’s more important.
But at the same time, they call

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it the climate hoax.
So they’re trying to have it

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both ways.
So it is clearly, clearly a

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conspiracy to avoid the science.
So, yeah, I think there’s a

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conspiracy by this
administration and a number of

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big tech Bros and others to stop
the reality of climate science

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and climate change.
So there we go.

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Yeah, that is a fantastic
answer.

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John, How about you?
I got the easy one.

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Yeah, I agree with Jerry on the
climate change thing.

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I think the destroying the EPA
and, you know, business leaders

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would tell you that, you know,
they see their business changing

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because of what’s happening and
with climate change, but the

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government wants to pretend like
it isn’t so they can invest more

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in things that hurt the climate.
But yeah, I guess a couple would

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be for me is is there life
outside of the world?

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Right.
So we talked about a little bit

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on our podcast and I would they
put that together with religion.

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So those two things to me are
things that I think are sort of

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conspiracy.
Most people talk about them in a

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conspiratorial way.
They pretend like they know that

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there are aliens that have come
to Earth or there’s UFOs.

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That can be explained.
Jerry and I talked to you about

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it.
Like, I don’t see any evidence

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really of that, but I do believe
that given just the massive

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nature of the cosmos, that there
is some form of life out there.

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But, you know, it would be wrong
to think that us on this little

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teeny dot are the only important
thing going on.

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And it’s the same with religion
to me in a sense that the notion

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that, you know, some people in
the past decided that they know

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exactly how humans were made and
how our minds work and how, you

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know, there’s a God and the one
God does this.

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And there the fact that there’s
so many religions.

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I think, you know, religion in
many ways for most are like a

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conspiracy theory and it’s
comforting and important to

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believe it.
And some of the things that

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religion say are really
important for humanity.

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But I think it’s arrogant to
suggest that I know the right

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answer to everything.
I know what God does and what he

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says, and I’m, you know, pushed
by him.

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So I think there is something
that animates us that we don’t

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understand.
And so I think, like I said,

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aliens and God are two things
that I think in some fashion

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exist.
But it’s wrong for us to pretend

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like we know.
And the people who pretend like

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we know are conspiracy theorists
in my view.

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And if John is struck by a
lightning bolt in the next few

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minutes, I will continue the
podcast so don’t have to worry

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about.
That oh the views we would get

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if that happened.
Not a video podcast but I might

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pivot if it.
I don’t think it would.

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I’d been hit by worse things.
He has, yeah.

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That’s another conspiracy.
It’s on the Russian stuff.

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Yeah, there we go.
So along the same lines as the

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last question, this is a
listener question.

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Norm from Cheers.
I doubt that’s his real name.

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I love Norm.
I thought he.

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Died he wants to know who really
killed JFKI love.

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A lot of these questions imply
that you 2 are going to know

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everything that has ever
happened with.

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The government, well luckily my
wife is not around too quickly,

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persuade the listeners.
I was.

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I was.
I was 3 when that happened, or

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4, actually.
Yeah, I was in on it, yeah.

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We’re on the grassy Knoll.
Do either of you have any

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suspicions that the JFK
assassination is anything other

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than what the official version
of events are though?

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I don’t that’s the problem, the
official version of events.

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And I think like any
investigation that’s in a

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politically charged atmosphere,
when a president is killed and

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the Cold War is going on, we’re
attacking the Soviets and Cuba.

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It’s created problems around
that make people worry that

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you’re not getting the whole
answer and that the

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investigation, there’s pieces of
it that are shut off and stuff

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like that.
So I tend to believe that, you

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know, sadly, you want to believe
a conspiracy here, that some

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little jerk shouldn’t be able to
kill the president of the United

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States.
But I think in this case, that’s

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what happened.
But I do think there was so much

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stuff moving around that that
it’s allowed us to create these

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stories, many of which are far
more interesting than probably

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the real story.
And that’s why it continues to

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this day, right?
The thing with conspiracy is

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having again, like John having
done small one is the more

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Byzantine it gets, right?
The more moving pieces, the more

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unlikely it’s going to be.
So the answer is, I assume it’s

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Lee Harvey Oswald.
The real question is who’s

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behind him and the grassy Knoll
and right.

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OK, so I mean, we did a great
episode with Phil Robinson,

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right, writer and producer to
feel the dreams and sneakers and

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all these things and and his
he’s like, look, if you’re going

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to create a conspiracy, it’s
like you’re going to get a

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nebbish like Oswald, right,
Who’s going to talk if they

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catch him.
And you know, the plan is to let

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the police hold him for three or
four days and then get some

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criminal to come in and shoot
him.

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And of course the shot will kill
him.

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And then and of course Ruby’s
never going to talk.

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And of course, you know, mafia
guys never talk amongst

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themselves.
They never brag.

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And then of course, there’s the
ludicrousness of let’s just, and

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I’m saying I don’t think it’s
true at all, but at least

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there’s no evidence, let’s put
it that way.

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If people in CIA were somehow
involved, which I don’t think

217
00:11:26,800 –> 00:11:29,520
they were, they wouldn’t frig
it, write it down, right?

218
00:11:29,520 –> 00:11:32,840
And put it in, let’s file that
away, that conversation, right?

219
00:11:32,840 –> 00:11:35,440
They wouldn’t do it.
So this thing about, whoa,

220
00:11:35,440 –> 00:11:39,360
there’s got to be one more file.
It’s like, you know, if you’re

221
00:11:39,360 –> 00:11:42,240
going to shoot the president of
the United States, I’m just

222
00:11:42,240 –> 00:11:46,320
thinking you don’t sit down and
say, let’s protocol this and

223
00:11:46,320 –> 00:11:49,040
stick it in the file with the
secretary to type it up, right?

224
00:11:49,080 –> 00:11:52,280
So I think it’s, you know, just
like, use your noggin, man.

225
00:11:53,280 –> 00:11:54,360
Well, I don’t know Jerry, I
disagree.

226
00:11:54,520 –> 00:11:57,320
If you are trying to do the
Byzantine like you’re saying, In

227
00:11:57,320 –> 00:11:59,120
fact, that’s a really
interesting episode of ours with

228
00:11:59,120 –> 00:12:02,360
Phil Robinson on JFK
assassination, I would suggest

229
00:12:02,360 –> 00:12:04,480
people listen to that our
mission Implausible podcast.

230
00:12:04,480 –> 00:12:07,200
But if you’re going to do all
these things that is all going

231
00:12:07,200 –> 00:12:09,200
to work together.
He’s going to, you know, that

232
00:12:09,200 –> 00:12:11,240
he’s going to be able to get
there into the building by

233
00:12:11,240 –> 00:12:13,800
himself and get a gun in there
and be able to buy a gun and be

234
00:12:13,800 –> 00:12:16,360
able to get away and be able to
take a bus and then, you know,

235
00:12:16,360 –> 00:12:17,440
someone’s.
Going to.

236
00:12:18,040 –> 00:12:20,480
All those things, I think you’d
have to write some of that down.

237
00:12:20,560 –> 00:12:22,840
You couldn’t have a meeting with
people and be able to for

238
00:12:22,840 –> 00:12:26,240
everybody to remember every part
minute to be able to do that.

239
00:12:26,480 –> 00:12:29,160
So if there is a conspiracy, I
do think it’s somewhere it was

240
00:12:29,160 –> 00:12:30,760
written.
Down or they burn.

241
00:12:31,000 –> 00:12:33,640
OK, All right, I’m going to
grant you that, but then I would

242
00:12:33,640 –> 00:12:34,960
burn it.
Well, that makes.

243
00:12:34,960 –> 00:12:36,560
Sense I wouldn’t stick it in the
file.

244
00:12:36,560 –> 00:12:38,880
But the old shredders weren’t as
good as the new shredders I.

245
00:12:39,200 –> 00:12:41,880
Think.
Yeah, they didn’t have those

246
00:12:41,880 –> 00:12:45,680
Watergate shredders.
In fact, if you remember, I

247
00:12:45,680 –> 00:12:46,720
brought up the movie Argo
before.

248
00:12:46,720 –> 00:12:50,480
But Argo, that was one of the
things that when the Iranians in

249
00:12:50,480 –> 00:12:53,560
1979 took over our embassy,
which was what led to, you know,

250
00:12:53,560 –> 00:12:56,640
the Argo team going in to try to
get out the hostages, what

251
00:12:56,640 –> 00:12:59,880
happened is the CIA station
there shredded many or most of

252
00:12:59,880 –> 00:13:03,360
their documents and then fled.
But then the Iranians went in,

253
00:13:03,360 –> 00:13:05,200
and those old shredders
essentially just made little

254
00:13:05,200 –> 00:13:07,720
strips of paper.
And they hired students to come

255
00:13:07,720 –> 00:13:10,920
in and spend hours and hours and
days and days to repay paste it

256
00:13:10,920 –> 00:13:14,200
all back together.
And they there’s a book of all

257
00:13:14,200 –> 00:13:17,680
the CIA cables that have been re
put together from shredded

258
00:13:17,680 –> 00:13:20,080
documents.
Get it on the Internet

259
00:13:20,080 –> 00:13:21,480
somewhere.
And I’ll run with this just a

260
00:13:21,480 –> 00:13:24,160
little bit further, and I’m
going to say, yeah, John is

261
00:13:24,160 –> 00:13:26,440
right.
When we do do a conspiracy, a

262
00:13:26,440 –> 00:13:29,520
small conspiracy, like how are
we going to approach this

263
00:13:29,520 –> 00:13:31,480
Iranian nuclear scientist,
right?

264
00:13:31,480 –> 00:13:34,160
Let’s say he’s in Europe and we
want to approach him in some

265
00:13:34,160 –> 00:13:37,760
way.
We would to a fare thee well,

266
00:13:37,760 –> 00:13:41,000
think through all the different
scenarios and then we would sit

267
00:13:41,000 –> 00:13:44,800
up and there would be dozens, at
least dozens of people involved

268
00:13:44,800 –> 00:13:47,360
and then people would have to
like OK, it right.

269
00:13:47,360 –> 00:13:49,640
So there’d be all this that
there would be probably be

270
00:13:49,640 –> 00:13:52,120
hundreds of people involved and
everything is James right.

271
00:13:52,240 –> 00:13:56,160
Everything would have to be
typed out because in CIA we and

272
00:13:56,160 –> 00:13:59,120
you have to have approvals like
some where’s the money coming

273
00:13:59,120 –> 00:14:02,560
from to fly everybody in and
it’s like, well, you know so

274
00:14:02,760 –> 00:14:06,160
well, OK, you get a BLI number.
And so, yeah, the uncool, the

275
00:14:06,160 –> 00:14:09,040
whole thing about cool
operations is nobody ever looks

276
00:14:09,040 –> 00:14:11,520
at the logistics of it like
Mission Impossible when they

277
00:14:11,600 –> 00:14:13,760
peel off those rubber masks,
right?

278
00:14:13,760 –> 00:14:16,720
You don’t ever have the guy who
like, makes the masks or, you

279
00:14:16,720 –> 00:14:18,960
know, who’s who’s going to pay
for them and going to get the

280
00:14:18,960 –> 00:14:20,880
upscale kind of the downscale
kind.

281
00:14:20,880 –> 00:14:24,000
You know, it’s like, you get 2,
you know, it’s like all these

282
00:14:24,000 –> 00:14:26,440
decisions are made and they all
got to be paid for.

283
00:14:26,680 –> 00:14:29,040
And you’ve got all these people
like, you know, but you never

284
00:14:29,040 –> 00:14:30,560
see that because you shouldn’t,
because it’s boring.

285
00:14:31,120 –> 00:14:34,320
Yeah, I’ll tell you my favorite
JFK theory.

286
00:14:34,520 –> 00:14:38,400
There’s a documentary out there
called JFK, The Smoking Gun, and

287
00:14:38,480 –> 00:14:41,280
there was this guy.
There’s a very famous CBS

288
00:14:41,280 –> 00:14:45,920
recreation where they tried to
see if anyone could pull off the

289
00:14:45,920 –> 00:14:48,560
number of shots Lee Harvey
Oswald pulled off.

290
00:14:48,640 –> 00:14:50,560
And there was one guy who was
able to do it.

291
00:14:50,720 –> 00:14:52,760
And people point to that as
well.

292
00:14:52,760 –> 00:14:56,160
Look, Lee Harvey Oswald could
have done it, but this guy was a

293
00:14:56,320 –> 00:14:58,840
Ballistics expert and a
marksman.

294
00:14:58,840 –> 00:15:01,760
I think he was military.
And he came away from that being

295
00:15:01,760 –> 00:15:04,280
like, no, no, no, only I could
have done that.

296
00:15:04,600 –> 00:15:06,920
There’s no way most people could
have done that.

297
00:15:06,960 –> 00:15:11,680
And he spent the next 30 years
of his life just examining the

298
00:15:11,680 –> 00:15:15,400
Ballistics evidence from the JFK
assassination.

299
00:15:15,520 –> 00:15:19,880
And what he is convinced
happened is Lee Harvey Oswald

300
00:15:19,880 –> 00:15:24,360
was there.
He was shooting, but that in one

301
00:15:24,360 –> 00:15:29,000
of the motorcade cars behind
JFKA Secret Service agent heard

302
00:15:29,000 –> 00:15:32,480
those shots and stood up to
start looking around to see

303
00:15:32,480 –> 00:15:35,640
where he was supposed to shoot.
And at that point, the car

304
00:15:35,680 –> 00:15:40,400
accelerated.
He falls and fires accidentally

305
00:15:40,480 –> 00:15:43,440
and, uh oh, hits JFK in the
head.

306
00:15:43,520 –> 00:15:47,720
And what I love about that
theory is everyone’s right.

307
00:15:47,800 –> 00:15:51,160
Lee Harvey Oswald was there.
He was the only shooter.

308
00:15:51,440 –> 00:15:54,360
He was acting alone.
But yes, the government in

309
00:15:54,360 –> 00:15:58,800
theory killed JFK and of course
they would have reason to cover

310
00:15:58,800 –> 00:16:01,800
it up.
It’s such a plausible idea to

311
00:16:01,800 –> 00:16:03,200
me.
I mean, sure, the like

312
00:16:03,200 –> 00:16:06,000
accidentally hitting JFK with
that bullet, that’s a one in a

313
00:16:06,000 –> 00:16:07,680
million thing.
But it makes more sense than

314
00:16:07,680 –> 00:16:11,160
like his driver shot him with a
shellfish toxin gun or

315
00:16:11,920 –> 00:16:15,280
something, which was I think one
of that was one of the like OG

316
00:16:15,360 –> 00:16:18,720
JFK theories was look, his
driver turns around and shoots

317
00:16:18,720 –> 00:16:20,800
him in the face.
Like he could have just done

318
00:16:20,800 –> 00:16:24,480
that anytime.
This may maybe what we saw in

319
00:16:24,480 –> 00:16:29,120
Minneapolis, right with Freddy,
you know, they 10 guys wrestled

320
00:16:29,120 –> 00:16:31,560
under the ground.
You know, they’re like Gun gun

321
00:16:31,560 –> 00:16:36,720
and the one ice thug guy, you
know, pulls the gun away and

322
00:16:36,720 –> 00:16:39,840
then the rest of them open up on
him and two guys shoot him 10

323
00:16:39,840 –> 00:16:41,480
times.
It was like, but you know, it,

324
00:16:41,560 –> 00:16:43,480
it could have.
I mean, I don’t know, but I

325
00:16:43,520 –> 00:16:46,480
watched the and there’s your
conspiracy that, you know, he’s

326
00:16:46,480 –> 00:16:48,760
a domestic terrorist.
He started it, You know, just

327
00:16:48,760 –> 00:16:53,440
like don’t believe your eyes.
Believe the conspiracy of what

328
00:16:53,560 –> 00:16:55,880
you know, people in DHS are
telling you, right.

329
00:16:55,880 –> 00:16:58,640
It was like, that’s a bad
conspiracy because like you can

330
00:16:58,640 –> 00:17:02,280
just you don’t need this.
There’s a brooder film from JFK.

331
00:17:02,280 –> 00:17:04,000
It’s just like, there it is,
man.

332
00:17:04,000 –> 00:17:06,640
You know, it’s like.
Nowadays, there would have been

333
00:17:06,880 –> 00:17:10,480
500 video cameras from people’s
phones on the Yeah.

334
00:17:11,079 –> 00:17:13,000
There were video cameras.
Yeah, that’s a good point.

335
00:17:13,520 –> 00:17:15,440
Lee Harvey Oswald would have
live streamed it.

336
00:17:15,440 –> 00:17:19,720
That wouldn’t help.
Helped a lot.

337
00:17:20,079 –> 00:17:22,560
Yeah, but his previous Twitter
would have let us know about his

338
00:17:22,560 –> 00:17:23,720
time in Cuba, right?
That’s right.

339
00:17:23,760 –> 00:17:24,680
That’s right.
That’s right.

340
00:17:26,000 –> 00:17:29,120
But if anybody had a reason,
really, I mean, Kennedy didn’t

341
00:17:29,120 –> 00:17:32,040
have a problem with CIA.
You know, his friends ran it.

342
00:17:32,040 –> 00:17:35,760
And that I think that, you know,
if there was anybody, if I had

343
00:17:35,760 –> 00:17:37,840
to, and I don’t think it’s true,
but if there’s anybody who

344
00:17:37,840 –> 00:17:40,720
really had reason to do it, it
would be Castro because, you

345
00:17:40,720 –> 00:17:42,520
know, Kennedy was trying to bump
him off.

346
00:17:42,720 –> 00:17:44,400
Right.
Or Moscow or Moscow.

347
00:17:44,400 –> 00:17:46,160
Or they looked into those things
too.

348
00:17:46,160 –> 00:17:47,040
But yeah, they have.
They have.

349
00:17:47,120 –> 00:17:49,680
Yeah, I’m not saying it’s true.
I’m just saying that you know a

350
00:17:49,720 –> 00:17:52,480
reason to do it.
So let’s switch gears a little

351
00:17:52,480 –> 00:17:54,920
bit and talk about the CIA
itself.

352
00:17:55,040 –> 00:17:58,920
This is a question from AB
Grenville that might be real

353
00:17:58,920 –> 00:18:03,760
name How much of what the CIA
does involves human data

354
00:18:03,760 –> 00:18:07,520
collection versus electronic
signal intelligence?

355
00:18:07,600 –> 00:18:08,320
Good.
Question.

356
00:18:08,360 –> 00:18:09,760
Go ahead, Jerry.
Go if you want.

357
00:18:09,840 –> 00:18:13,440
But we do.
Our focus is human collection,

358
00:18:13,440 –> 00:18:15,560
right?
And human sources, generally,

359
00:18:15,640 –> 00:18:18,880
they are the best because we’re
gathering not just information,

360
00:18:18,880 –> 00:18:21,640
but plans and intentions, right?
The most important.

361
00:18:21,640 –> 00:18:24,120
So you can steal a piece of
paper, you can listen into a

362
00:18:24,120 –> 00:18:26,760
telephone call, but you don’t
know if they’re lying to you.

363
00:18:26,760 –> 00:18:29,280
What you really want to do is,
you know, have somebody in the

364
00:18:29,280 –> 00:18:32,160
meeting that says, well, I wrote
that, but this is what we’re

365
00:18:32,160 –> 00:18:34,440
going to do.
So plans and tensions, human,

366
00:18:34,440 –> 00:18:37,520
although small, is really the
apex.

367
00:18:37,800 –> 00:18:41,520
And then there’s a codicil to
that, which is human enabled

368
00:18:41,520 –> 00:18:43,600
technical collection.
John, you want to cover that

369
00:18:43,600 –> 00:18:44,960
because that’s a really big one
too.

370
00:18:45,600 –> 00:18:48,160
Yeah.
So you know, our job in the CIA,

371
00:18:48,160 –> 00:18:51,360
like Jerry says, it’s the
espionage part of the agency.

372
00:18:51,360 –> 00:18:54,280
And espionage is human to human
running a spy.

373
00:18:54,360 –> 00:18:57,040
But there’s two pieces to that.
There’s one is you can use

374
00:18:57,040 –> 00:19:00,040
technical things to figure out
who might be the best person to

375
00:19:00,040 –> 00:19:01,640
go after.
Because to run a spy, you want

376
00:19:01,640 –> 00:19:04,760
someone who has access to
secrets that you need and you

377
00:19:04,760 –> 00:19:07,720
have to know something about
them so that you know what

378
00:19:07,720 –> 00:19:09,560
motivates them and how you might
be able to recruit them as a

379
00:19:09,560 –> 00:19:11,800
spy.
And so we might use technical

380
00:19:11,800 –> 00:19:14,840
collection and big data to try
to figure out who is it?

381
00:19:15,160 –> 00:19:16,960
What does he have access to?
What do we know about this

382
00:19:16,960 –> 00:19:18,920
person, what he was family?
What do you know, what its

383
00:19:18,920 –> 00:19:20,560
beliefs?
And you might use technical

384
00:19:20,640 –> 00:19:23,040
things there.
And separately, the one of the

385
00:19:23,040 –> 00:19:28,080
best ways to collect big data,
big electronics and cyber

386
00:19:28,080 –> 00:19:29,640
attacks and everything is a
human.

387
00:19:29,640 –> 00:19:34,240
So if Jerry can recruit a spy
who works inside the name your

388
00:19:34,240 –> 00:19:38,000
thing, the Iranian nuclear
program, that spy might be able

389
00:19:38,000 –> 00:19:41,720
to put something in his computer
system that then allows our much

390
00:19:41,720 –> 00:19:45,440
larger NSA, which in the United
States, that is the organization

391
00:19:45,440 –> 00:19:48,240
that does signals intelligence.
We do human intelligence, they

392
00:19:48,240 –> 00:19:51,120
do signals intelligence.
Their job is to focus on

393
00:19:51,120 –> 00:19:55,080
foreigners and use whatever they
can do to listen to phone calls,

394
00:19:55,080 –> 00:19:58,120
collect information from
computers, you know, massive big

395
00:19:58,120 –> 00:20:01,200
data, translate, you know,
things that they get coming on

396
00:20:01,200 –> 00:20:04,080
signals over the air.
And So what helps that is a

397
00:20:04,080 –> 00:20:08,120
human can help us get into it.
So if the computer system of the

398
00:20:08,120 –> 00:20:11,360
Iranian nuclear program is tight
and held together, and there’s

399
00:20:11,360 –> 00:20:14,440
no connection to the outside
Internet, maybe this spy that

400
00:20:14,440 –> 00:20:16,440
Jerry’s running can put
something in their computer that

401
00:20:16,440 –> 00:20:20,000
allows the NSA to then extract
that information.

402
00:20:20,440 –> 00:20:21,760
And get those things.
So, so these things work

403
00:20:21,760 –> 00:20:23,960
together.
So human intelligence and the

404
00:20:23,960 –> 00:20:26,080
spying, the CI, it’s actually a
very small organization.

405
00:20:26,080 –> 00:20:28,640
There’s only a couple thousand
people worldwide that do that

406
00:20:28,640 –> 00:20:30,800
type of thing.
Then there’s a much larger group

407
00:20:30,800 –> 00:20:34,000
of people who work on technical
things and cyber attacks and

408
00:20:34,000 –> 00:20:37,040
computer and big data analysis
and all that type of stuff.

409
00:20:37,040 –> 00:20:39,000
So when it’s works right, they
work together.

410
00:20:39,000 –> 00:20:42,160
The human spy might help the
technical spy to collect

411
00:20:42,160 –> 00:20:45,160
something.
Along sort of the same lines,

412
00:20:45,200 –> 00:20:48,640
this is a question for me.
How worried should the American

413
00:20:48,640 –> 00:20:54,240
public be that the CIA has a
venture capital wing that is

414
00:20:54,360 –> 00:20:58,640
investing in social media and
various technologies?

415
00:20:58,640 –> 00:21:03,480
I think Google Earth was a big
thing that CIA had a hand in at

416
00:21:03,480 –> 00:21:06,720
least funding, so I think people
should be concerned about.

417
00:21:06,760 –> 00:21:09,560
Or is you think it’s all on the
up and up?

418
00:21:09,640 –> 00:21:11,040
Not anymore.
I don’t think it’s actually

419
00:21:11,040 –> 00:21:13,600
doing all that well, right?
I don’t know.

420
00:21:13,600 –> 00:21:16,320
I’ve been out for a while, I’m
guessing, but I’ve heard that

421
00:21:16,400 –> 00:21:19,320
like it was a thing for a while.
We’re cutting edge, but the tech

422
00:21:19,320 –> 00:21:21,120
Bros, they don’t really need us
anymore.

423
00:21:21,120 –> 00:21:22,200
I don’t know.
What do you think, John?

424
00:21:22,920 –> 00:21:26,720
Director Tenet back in the late
90s I think started in Q Tel,

425
00:21:26,720 –> 00:21:29,920
which was a piece of the CIA.
They would look at technology.

426
00:21:29,920 –> 00:21:32,160
You said Google Earth, for
example, and they would look at

427
00:21:32,160 –> 00:21:34,680
startups and these type of thing
and they would see, you know,

428
00:21:34,680 –> 00:21:37,200
they had a little bit of money
that they could invest to sort

429
00:21:37,200 –> 00:21:38,600
of support the ones that might
be.

430
00:21:38,800 –> 00:21:42,440
So there might be a gaming
platform that might be useful to

431
00:21:42,600 –> 00:21:45,400
a part of the CIA that was going
to try to, you know, they’re

432
00:21:45,400 –> 00:21:48,040
collecting all this information.
Maybe we can use this gaming

433
00:21:48,040 –> 00:21:51,040
system to try to figure out if
we put it together, what options

434
00:21:51,040 –> 00:21:53,560
might be in the future that so
that we can tell our policy

435
00:21:53,560 –> 00:21:56,840
makers what’s happening.
Or, you know, let’s try to help

436
00:21:56,840 –> 00:21:59,480
some of these private sector
companies that are doing some of

437
00:21:59,480 –> 00:22:01,040
this research that we can then
use.

438
00:22:01,440 –> 00:22:03,360
I think Palantir might have been
one of those.

439
00:22:03,360 –> 00:22:05,800
I’m not 100% sure they gave
money to this.

440
00:22:06,080 –> 00:22:09,720
And that that technology proved
to be very useful to the CIA and

441
00:22:09,800 –> 00:22:12,400
FBI and others to help.
You know, when we were going

442
00:22:12,400 –> 00:22:15,040
after al Qaeda and terrorist
networks, it was able, we

443
00:22:15,040 –> 00:22:18,240
started to collect data from
terrorists that we caught and

444
00:22:18,240 –> 00:22:20,840
their computers and things.
It allowed us to put together,

445
00:22:21,040 –> 00:22:24,920
you know, very large data sets
that would connect and help tell

446
00:22:24,920 –> 00:22:27,280
us who are the most key players
and who to go after and where

447
00:22:27,280 –> 00:22:28,640
they were and all those type of
things.

448
00:22:29,080 –> 00:22:31,040
So that technology actually
really helped the CIA.

449
00:22:31,040 –> 00:22:33,960
But I think that was the point.
It was to find technologies the

450
00:22:33,960 –> 00:22:38,480
CIA could use inside, you know,
to make our systems work better

451
00:22:38,480 –> 00:22:41,400
or to be to help us, you know,
spy better.

452
00:22:41,400 –> 00:22:44,640
I don’t think it’s, you know,
the CIA is a foreign

453
00:22:44,640 –> 00:22:47,600
intelligence agency.
It doesn’t collect on American

454
00:22:47,600 –> 00:22:50,160
citizens and we’re quite careful
about that.

455
00:22:50,240 –> 00:22:52,400
That’s why I worry about this
new administration is, you know,

456
00:22:52,400 –> 00:22:55,960
they tend to want to weaponize
these very powerful intelligence

457
00:22:55,960 –> 00:22:59,520
agencies that are foreign facing
to maybe for their own purposes,

458
00:22:59,520 –> 00:23:02,400
go after American citizens.
So like Jerry, I don’t know if

459
00:23:02,400 –> 00:23:04,840
they’re still doing that,
supporting the technology.

460
00:23:04,840 –> 00:23:07,960
There’s a seems to me that
there’s enough money in the AI

461
00:23:07,960 –> 00:23:10,520
world and all these big people
in Silicon Valley that they

462
00:23:10,520 –> 00:23:12,840
don’t need, you know, small bits
of money from the CIA to help

463
00:23:12,840 –> 00:23:14,760
them.
I want to underline what John

464
00:23:14,760 –> 00:23:16,760
said because I think it’s really
important.

465
00:23:16,800 –> 00:23:20,360
It’s not, you know, there’s like
the CIA, you know, this or that.

466
00:23:20,600 –> 00:23:23,360
It’s really not the CIA.
It’s who runs it.

467
00:23:23,360 –> 00:23:26,440
It’s like the administration,
who’s in charge of it and what

468
00:23:26,440 –> 00:23:30,560
is it, you know, CIA, is it just
like Department of Defense or

469
00:23:30,560 –> 00:23:33,080
NSA?
These are just simply tools.

470
00:23:33,360 –> 00:23:38,120
So it’s really like, how are
these tools being used, right?

471
00:23:38,120 –> 00:23:41,240
They can be used for.
So like, you know, famously

472
00:23:41,240 –> 00:23:44,160
DARPA defense, I’m not going to
call IT department of War, but a

473
00:23:44,160 –> 00:23:47,960
Department of Defense element,
you know, got the Internet

474
00:23:47,960 –> 00:23:50,120
started, right?
I mean, it was, you know, so, so

475
00:23:50,120 –> 00:23:52,880
is the Internet good or big?
Well, it depends on how you use

476
00:23:52,880 –> 00:23:55,600
it, right?
And so things like, and I’ll

477
00:23:55,600 –> 00:23:58,880
start a conspiracy here because
I have no information, but I

478
00:23:58,880 –> 00:24:02,360
don’t like the look of it.
What is Tulsi Gabbard, DNI,

479
00:24:02,360 –> 00:24:06,280
right, head of, you know,
foreign, foreign intelligence,

480
00:24:06,280 –> 00:24:09,680
Nothing to do with the eggs.
What is she doing when the FBI

481
00:24:09,680 –> 00:24:13,240
is seizing voter records in
Georgia yesterday?

482
00:24:13,320 –> 00:24:15,880
What the fuck is that?
What the fuck is the foreign

483
00:24:16,120 –> 00:24:19,560
intelligence person skulking
around the building for

484
00:24:19,560 –> 00:24:22,200
something that is internal?
What explains that?

485
00:24:22,200 –> 00:24:25,640
Why is she there?
So it’s like, you know, she

486
00:24:25,880 –> 00:24:29,520
supposedly she’s not in charge,
but she has great influence over

487
00:24:29,520 –> 00:24:31,880
the CIA.
So what’s her role there?

488
00:24:31,960 –> 00:24:34,280
And why is she, like, sneaking
around in a telephone?

489
00:24:34,480 –> 00:24:37,960
So, you know, the D and I’s
office I think can be benign or

490
00:24:37,960 –> 00:24:40,360
good or, you know, it could be
bad.

491
00:24:40,840 –> 00:24:42,160
What the fuck is she doing
there?

492
00:24:43,120 –> 00:24:45,880
I think that’s a conspiracy that
I would like to run with, right?

493
00:24:45,960 –> 00:24:48,680
Like.
And then many of the people, you

494
00:24:48,680 –> 00:24:51,280
know, who believe the CIA is
sort of all powerful, and we

495
00:24:51,280 –> 00:24:53,560
were talking about the JFK
assassination and the potential

496
00:24:53,560 –> 00:24:56,000
CIA role a while ago, talk about
a lot of the things that

497
00:24:56,000 –> 00:24:59,560
happened in the early years of
the CIA when presidents, it was

498
00:24:59,560 –> 00:25:01,960
sort of their secret weapon.
There wasn’t oversight.

499
00:25:01,960 –> 00:25:03,480
There wasn’t congressional
oversight.

500
00:25:03,480 –> 00:25:05,720
There wasn’t legal means by
which the CIA works.

501
00:25:05,720 –> 00:25:07,680
So it’s sort of free to do what
it wanted to do.

502
00:25:07,680 –> 00:25:10,320
And so if President Eisenhower
would say, you know, I’m sort

503
00:25:10,320 –> 00:25:13,680
of, I’m frustrated with that guy
down in Guatemala.

504
00:25:13,720 –> 00:25:16,320
You know, I have a friend who
has a business down there and

505
00:25:16,320 –> 00:25:19,000
the president, Guatemala is, you
know, threatening to take over

506
00:25:19,000 –> 00:25:20,760
his business.
CIA, see what you can do.

507
00:25:20,760 –> 00:25:23,080
And we overthrow the government
of Guatemala or.

508
00:25:23,640 –> 00:25:27,360
And so in the early years, the
CIA was again, like Jerry said,

509
00:25:27,480 –> 00:25:29,960
you know, it would do what the
president told it to do.

510
00:25:29,960 –> 00:25:33,040
And then in the 1970s, there was
a series of reforms, you know,

511
00:25:33,120 –> 00:25:35,880
often based on things that CIA
had done or been threatened to

512
00:25:35,880 –> 00:25:38,800
do that didn’t seem even to me
who worked there, like bad, you

513
00:25:38,800 –> 00:25:41,520
know, trying to kill Castro or
overthrow, showing some of these

514
00:25:41,520 –> 00:25:44,880
governments and things.
There were reforms put in after

515
00:25:44,880 –> 00:25:48,320
the Church and Pike committees
in the Senate and the Congress.

516
00:25:48,760 –> 00:25:51,520
The Rockefeller Commission
looked at the CIA and said, you

517
00:25:51,520 –> 00:25:54,440
know, there needs to be rules
around what the CIA does.

518
00:25:54,680 –> 00:25:57,800
There needs to be congressional
oversight of the intelligence

519
00:25:57,800 –> 00:25:59,560
community.
There needs to be if the

520
00:25:59,560 –> 00:26:02,640
president is going to ask the
CIA to take action to overthrow

521
00:26:02,760 –> 00:26:06,080
government, for example, it
needs to be clearly in writing

522
00:26:06,080 –> 00:26:08,560
and sent to the Congress.
And so this is something is not.

523
00:26:08,560 –> 00:26:10,160
We’re not wigging it anymore.
And so.

524
00:26:10,360 –> 00:26:11,760
Yeah.
You know, a lot of times when

525
00:26:11,760 –> 00:26:14,480
people like you and others talk
to us about what the CIA’s power

526
00:26:14,480 –> 00:26:17,360
and what’s done, a lot of it is
that period of time before the

527
00:26:17,360 –> 00:26:21,200
reforms when presidents would
just use it as, you know, rather

528
00:26:21,200 –> 00:26:23,680
than going through the hard work
of trying to work with the

529
00:26:23,680 –> 00:26:26,520
American people and build a
policy that, you know, to try to

530
00:26:26,520 –> 00:26:30,000
decide whether we’re going to
invade Chile or something, he

531
00:26:30,000 –> 00:26:32,240
would just secretly send the CIA
to do it.

532
00:26:32,440 –> 00:26:36,320
And those days are largely over.
But this new administration, I’m

533
00:26:36,320 –> 00:26:38,560
worried that they don’t seem to
care about those legal

534
00:26:38,560 –> 00:26:41,160
restrictions in the things that
we built up to try how to make

535
00:26:41,160 –> 00:26:44,320
our intelligence services that
are very powerful focused

536
00:26:44,440 –> 00:26:47,200
overseas and following strict
regulations and rules and laws

537
00:26:47,200 –> 00:26:48,800
and.
There’s one more thing I just

538
00:26:48,800 –> 00:26:49,960
want to throw in for their
listeners.

539
00:26:49,960 –> 00:26:52,920
And thinking about conspiracy
theories and conspiracies is OK.

540
00:26:52,920 –> 00:26:56,400
So CIA roughly has three
functions, right?

541
00:26:56,520 –> 00:26:58,920
It collects foreign
intelligence, you know,

542
00:26:58,920 –> 00:27:01,640
generally through recruiting
agents and like John and I

543
00:27:01,640 –> 00:27:04,080
driving around in our Austin
Martins with machine guns on

544
00:27:04,080 –> 00:27:07,800
this on the sides.
But it’s like as we do, you

545
00:27:07,800 –> 00:27:10,760
know, exactly mine was for
everybody out there for the most

546
00:27:10,840 –> 00:27:14,840
part when I was like SCA.
So I drove a Toyota minivan with

547
00:27:14,840 –> 00:27:18,120
car seats in the back and with
like fruit Loops on the floor,

548
00:27:18,120 –> 00:27:20,160
right.
I mean, that’s that was the spy

549
00:27:20,160 –> 00:27:22,160
way.
But so we collect that we do

550
00:27:22,160 –> 00:27:24,520
covert action and sort of talk
about that sort of things that

551
00:27:24,520 –> 00:27:28,240
are deniable to use.
But the third thing, and in a

552
00:27:28,240 –> 00:27:31,560
lot of ways the most important
thing weirdly, is we’re the

553
00:27:31,560 –> 00:27:35,480
whipping boy.
When shit goes wrong, we get

554
00:27:35,480 –> 00:27:38,160
blamed.
So you know, the president, he

555
00:27:38,160 –> 00:27:40,080
says we are going to invade
Iraq.

556
00:27:40,280 –> 00:27:43,840
Tell the CIA to get me the, you
know the reason, right?

557
00:27:43,840 –> 00:27:46,240
I don’t give a shit what it is
because they were working on it

558
00:27:46,240 –> 00:27:49,000
as well.
So no one says, you know, I

559
00:27:49,000 –> 00:27:51,320
don’t want to get on this rabbit
hole, but with, you know, the

560
00:27:51,680 –> 00:27:54,160
torture tactics as people
sometimes call them, right?

561
00:27:54,400 –> 00:27:57,000
Oh, it’s the CIA.
Well, who the fuck put those

562
00:27:57,000 –> 00:27:59,480
together?
Who agreed to this?

563
00:27:59,480 –> 00:28:01,480
Who made it legal?
Who said this was OK?

564
00:28:01,720 –> 00:28:04,200
It was the president.
In fact, for like waterboarding

565
00:28:04,360 –> 00:28:06,400
the president, the United States
has to OK it.

566
00:28:06,600 –> 00:28:09,280
But it’s not like, oh, the
president did that, because

567
00:28:09,280 –> 00:28:13,520
everybody knows we’ll just blame
the CIAI don’t actually think we

568
00:28:13,520 –> 00:28:15,320
did engage in torture.
That’s another question.

569
00:28:15,320 –> 00:28:19,120
But our job is to basically if
things go bad, is to take the

570
00:28:19,120 –> 00:28:22,320
blame.
Yeah, I feel like CIA has kind

571
00:28:22,320 –> 00:28:25,520
of become a term like Kleenex a
little bit with aspirin.

572
00:28:27,480 –> 00:28:29,880
Aspirin.
It’s just a catch all for

573
00:28:29,880 –> 00:28:33,400
intelligence agencies.
My thought is always, well,

574
00:28:33,400 –> 00:28:35,600
yeah, the CIA just operates
overseas.

575
00:28:35,880 –> 00:28:37,640
We don’t need them to operate
here.

576
00:28:37,640 –> 00:28:41,160
We have 16 other intelligence.
That’s right.

577
00:28:41,440 –> 00:28:44,480
It’s illegal.
Yeah, what are they doing right?

578
00:28:44,680 –> 00:28:48,880
And CI is actually pretty small
compared to, you know, the 80%

579
00:28:48,880 –> 00:28:50,480
of the intelligence community
belongs to the Defense

580
00:28:50,480 –> 00:28:53,320
Department.
So, you know, NSA is a joint

581
00:28:53,320 –> 00:28:56,040
intelligence community, Defense
Department organization.

582
00:28:56,280 –> 00:28:59,440
And then the Army, Navy, Air
Force, Marines all have an

583
00:28:59,440 –> 00:29:02,560
intelligence and there’s the
Defense Intelligence Agency and

584
00:29:02,560 –> 00:29:04,800
there’s the NRO that does
satellites, which is largely run

585
00:29:04,920 –> 00:29:07,760
by military as well as
intelligence community people.

586
00:29:07,760 –> 00:29:11,520
So I mean, it’s a big community
that all sort of does pieces of

587
00:29:11,520 –> 00:29:13,560
this and works together.
And let me just add one thing

588
00:29:13,560 –> 00:29:16,200
that Jerry said with the CIA.
He does he one thing he didn’t

589
00:29:16,200 –> 00:29:19,240
say, which is I think also one
of those important things is it

590
00:29:19,240 –> 00:29:22,800
does all source analysis.
It’s where the big brains that

591
00:29:22,800 –> 00:29:25,640
are that collect when all of
this intelligence comes together

592
00:29:25,640 –> 00:29:28,800
from the satellites and from the
NSA and from the CIA and from

593
00:29:28,800 –> 00:29:32,440
our spies and from diplomats.
You know, there’s an analyst

594
00:29:32,440 –> 00:29:35,440
who’s an expert on whatever
that, you know, on Egypt or on

595
00:29:35,480 –> 00:29:38,680
South Africa or China or
whatever, who then puts it all

596
00:29:38,680 –> 00:29:42,440
together and either briefs or
sends it to Secretary of State,

597
00:29:42,440 –> 00:29:44,160
the president, people who need
that information.

598
00:29:44,280 –> 00:29:49,680
Yeah, that reminds me of a story
I bring up all the time.

599
00:29:49,800 –> 00:29:53,200
The only outlet that covered it
was Newsweek.

600
00:29:53,200 –> 00:29:56,520
To this day, I feel like that’s
the only place I’ve seen it

601
00:29:56,560 –> 00:29:59,160
covered.
But it was a story about how for

602
00:29:59,160 –> 00:30:02,720
the past ten years or so, the
Department of Defense has been

603
00:30:02,720 –> 00:30:09,040
building a network of American
intelligence agents whose whole

604
00:30:09,040 –> 00:30:12,080
role is to just go out into
like, I’m an LA comedian.

605
00:30:12,080 –> 00:30:15,720
I guarantee one of them is in
the LA comedy community.

606
00:30:15,800 –> 00:30:18,440
That’s what they do.
They just go out and sort of

607
00:30:18,560 –> 00:30:22,000
infiltrate communities and
movement like what we heard, you

608
00:30:22,000 –> 00:30:24,040
know, COINTELPRO was with the
FBI.

609
00:30:24,160 –> 00:30:28,320
And according to this report,
there’s something like 40 or

610
00:30:28,320 –> 00:30:30,640
50,000 of them.
And it said in this story,

611
00:30:30,640 –> 00:30:34,160
that’s more than there are
undercover CIA by agents.

612
00:30:34,400 –> 00:30:36,400
If that’s true, by a lot.
The Defense Department is

613
00:30:36,400 –> 00:30:39,520
massive and it’s got so many
different pieces, things going.

614
00:30:39,600 –> 00:30:41,600
I hope that that’s not true.
I hope that the Defense

615
00:30:41,600 –> 00:30:44,520
Department shouldn’t be go out
into American communities doing

616
00:30:44,520 –> 00:30:47,680
anything unless they’re trying
to work with companies to help

617
00:30:47,680 –> 00:30:49,120
them make better things for
government.

618
00:30:49,120 –> 00:30:51,600
And the FBI does have that role.
The FBI’s role is a law

619
00:30:51,600 –> 00:30:53,840
enforcement enter and
counterintelligence role and

620
00:30:53,840 –> 00:30:56,360
they’re the ones that can deal
with American citizens and look

621
00:30:56,360 –> 00:30:59,680
into American citizens if they
have a legal predicate that goes

622
00:30:59,680 –> 00:31:01,160
through a judge and all that
type of stuff.

623
00:31:01,160 –> 00:31:03,360
That’s why this thing that Jerry
brought up about going after

624
00:31:03,360 –> 00:31:07,000
voter rolls in Georgia is scary.
I don’t know how the FBI, maybe

625
00:31:07,000 –> 00:31:10,640
we’ll learn that that’s not as
awful sounding as it is, but if

626
00:31:10,640 –> 00:31:12,680
it is what we think it is,
that’s really we’re in a

627
00:31:12,800 –> 00:31:16,400
dangerous place and also.
I mean, I don’t know the answer

628
00:31:16,400 –> 00:31:19,440
to what you said, but I would
gently push back on that.

629
00:31:19,520 –> 00:31:24,240
Only in so far as Murphy.
You know, people, you know, John

630
00:31:24,240 –> 00:31:25,600
and I, we were in a people
business.

631
00:31:25,880 –> 00:31:29,400
People are fuck ups, like
including us sometimes, right?

632
00:31:29,520 –> 00:31:33,040
One of the biggest problems with
running an agent is they always

633
00:31:33,040 –> 00:31:35,520
got to tell somebody.
They got to tell their wife,

634
00:31:35,520 –> 00:31:37,840
they got to tell their best
friend, they drink, they tell

635
00:31:37,840 –> 00:31:40,200
somebody else.
Nobody can fucking keep a

636
00:31:40,200 –> 00:31:43,200
secret, right?
So if there’s 40,000 people

637
00:31:43,200 –> 00:31:48,680
spying on people in the United
States, I guarantee you 3/4 of

638
00:31:48,680 –> 00:31:51,920
them are sitting in a bar and
they’re going to be like, no

639
00:31:51,920 –> 00:31:53,920
shit, man.
You know, the benefits are

640
00:31:53,920 –> 00:31:56,880
great.
I get dental and I get to do

641
00:31:56,880 –> 00:31:59,320
this cool shit, you know?
And then there’s just like, how

642
00:31:59,320 –> 00:32:01,600
do you report that on your taxes
to the IRS?

643
00:32:01,600 –> 00:32:03,760
You know, like I’m a secret spy
and shit.

644
00:32:03,960 –> 00:32:06,920
So I’m not saying it’s not true,
but I’m saying like, you know,

645
00:32:07,000 –> 00:32:10,720
shit, shit like that is really,
really difficult to do, which is

646
00:32:10,720 –> 00:32:14,080
why big conspiracy theory CIA
just doesn’t do it right because

647
00:32:14,080 –> 00:32:16,280
we can’t.
Yeah, you mentioned the benefits

648
00:32:16,480 –> 00:32:19,400
at the.
CIA another That’s a good.

649
00:32:19,440 –> 00:32:21,400
Listener question.
This one’s probably coming a

650
00:32:21,480 –> 00:32:24,440
little out of left field.
What’s the catering at Langley

651
00:32:24,440 –> 00:32:25,560
like?
Oh, that’s oh.

652
00:32:25,720 –> 00:32:29,200
That’s a good question.
Dude, it’s over our time.

653
00:32:29,200 –> 00:32:31,800
It changed quite a bit.
When I first started to go in,

654
00:32:32,120 –> 00:32:35,320
they had a, you know, typical
government cafeteria which had

655
00:32:35,360 –> 00:32:38,040
kind of crappy food.
And when you went down to your

656
00:32:38,040 –> 00:32:40,200
training center, they same kind
of thing.

657
00:32:40,240 –> 00:32:44,120
By the time we left, there was a
Dunkin’ Donuts and a Starbucks.

658
00:32:44,600 –> 00:32:47,280
And then there was a food court
with a bunch of like pizza

659
00:32:47,280 –> 00:32:50,800
places and sub places and
Chinese and, you know, Middle

660
00:32:50,800 –> 00:32:54,040
Eastern kind of food as well as
a actually pretty nice central

661
00:32:54,040 –> 00:32:57,160
cafeteria that had, you know,
salad bars and all of this kind

662
00:32:57,160 –> 00:32:58,360
of thing.
So much better.

663
00:32:58,360 –> 00:33:00,880
Used to be there was sort of a
crappy cafeteria and in the

664
00:33:00,880 –> 00:33:03,240
basement there was a hot dog
machine that actually.

665
00:33:05,920 –> 00:33:07,640
Hot dog machine?
Yeah, it’s sort.

666
00:33:08,880 –> 00:33:11,400
Of like 7-11, you know, that hot
dog that rolls around in there

667
00:33:11,400 –> 00:33:14,360
and gets like, comes like
leather is like one of those

668
00:33:14,360 –> 00:33:16,040
kind of things.
And so, yeah, food is pretty

669
00:33:16,040 –> 00:33:18,600
good now, I think.
But the word catering is like

670
00:33:19,120 –> 00:33:21,840
all those places, the Middle
East place, the pizza place, you

671
00:33:21,840 –> 00:33:23,840
pay, right?
You get in line and they get,

672
00:33:23,880 –> 00:33:25,320
you know, they give you a slab
of pizza.

673
00:33:25,560 –> 00:33:27,960
And you know, the people who
work in there, I don’t know.

674
00:33:27,960 –> 00:33:31,240
It was like, you know, the, the
baristas are not CIA officers.

675
00:33:31,240 –> 00:33:33,080
They’re like just regular
baristas.

676
00:33:33,640 –> 00:33:35,800
They do have to get clear they
have some sort of time.

677
00:33:36,280 –> 00:33:38,120
They do the CIA.
Oh, wow.

678
00:33:38,240 –> 00:33:41,520
And then there’s also a separate
7th floor is what we call where

679
00:33:41,520 –> 00:33:44,040
the director and the top people
sit the same floor.

680
00:33:44,240 –> 00:33:47,520
There’s also a sort of a little
restaurant for the 7th floor

681
00:33:47,520 –> 00:33:50,720
people that like if some big
shot was coming over the

682
00:33:50,720 –> 00:33:52,920
president of Paraguay.
I was coming to talk to the

683
00:33:53,040 –> 00:33:54,640
director.
There’s a little restaurant

684
00:33:54,640 –> 00:33:57,000
there where they all can eat
with nice windows looking over

685
00:33:57,000 –> 00:33:59,360
the river.
And we also have little parties,

686
00:33:59,400 –> 00:34:01,560
like somebody’s leaving or a
birthday.

687
00:34:01,880 –> 00:34:05,720
And so you can almost graze.
You can walk into a place like

688
00:34:05,720 –> 00:34:09,040
at 1:00 into one of the big
rooms and there’ll still be

689
00:34:09,040 –> 00:34:11,560
leftover bagels and shit.
And you can like just walk in

690
00:34:11,560 –> 00:34:13,520
and like.
Dunkin’ Donuts, one of those

691
00:34:13,520 –> 00:34:17,159
little doughnut holes, those are
like an those doughnut

692
00:34:17,159 –> 00:34:19,719
munchkins.
And then every office there’s,

693
00:34:19,719 –> 00:34:22,480
you know, a coffee maker.
So you had just regular coffee?

694
00:34:23,320 –> 00:34:27,120
And not only is there coffee
maker, there is the guy who puts

695
00:34:27,120 –> 00:34:29,800
his fish in the microwave, right
in the kitchen, right?

696
00:34:31,239 –> 00:34:33,800
Got those two.
Most people, I think bring their

697
00:34:33,800 –> 00:34:36,400
lunches, right.
I mean, we’re not so in that,

698
00:34:36,480 –> 00:34:40,840
you know, the big money at CIA.
So I think the deal you get when

699
00:34:40,840 –> 00:34:45,520
you join is you take a massive
pay cut, right, compared to what

700
00:34:45,520 –> 00:34:47,639
you could probably make in the
outside world.

701
00:34:47,639 –> 00:34:51,760
So my brother Steve, he has the
exact same education as I do,

702
00:34:51,760 –> 00:34:53,600
right?
He went to the same grad school,

703
00:34:54,080 –> 00:34:55,719
international Business School
that I did.

704
00:34:56,000 –> 00:35:00,960
And he probably makes twice, if
not more than I do as a banker

705
00:35:00,960 –> 00:35:04,560
in agricultural banker.
But what you get in return is

706
00:35:04,560 –> 00:35:07,800
you get a, you know, you get a
four O 1K, you get some, you

707
00:35:07,800 –> 00:35:10,280
know, generally you’re not going
to get fired up until this

708
00:35:10,280 –> 00:35:14,200
administration unless you really
fuck up and you get to do cool

709
00:35:14,200 –> 00:35:16,280
shit.
So, you know, for people who

710
00:35:16,400 –> 00:35:21,680
demonize the CIA, by and large,
these people are taking a, a big

711
00:35:21,680 –> 00:35:24,080
pay cut to what they could be
getting on the outside because

712
00:35:24,080 –> 00:35:26,920
they want to serve and they want
to do interesting information.

713
00:35:26,920 –> 00:35:28,800
They want a mission.
They want to make a difference

714
00:35:28,800 –> 00:35:31,840
in the world, you know, but you
also get like, and if it’s like

715
00:35:32,000 –> 00:35:34,760
not being there for when your
kids are born, right?

716
00:35:34,760 –> 00:35:38,400
Or being sent away from your
family because like you do a

717
00:35:38,400 –> 00:35:41,480
year in Iraq, you do a year in
Afghanistan, you go to like

718
00:35:41,480 –> 00:35:44,520
really shitty places or you
bring your families to like

719
00:35:44,560 –> 00:35:47,880
Bangladesh where they can like
breathe unhealthy air and worry

720
00:35:47,880 –> 00:35:51,040
about cobras in the garden.
Right there was like, so, you

721
00:35:51,040 –> 00:35:55,240
know, I loved it, but it is not,
you know, we’re not like, you

722
00:35:55,240 –> 00:35:58,520
know, people are like, oh, these
the deep state guys, you know,

723
00:35:58,520 –> 00:36:01,080
they were like, what the fuck
are you talking about?

724
00:36:01,320 –> 00:36:04,320
We take real risks with
ourselves and our families, not

725
00:36:04,320 –> 00:36:07,600
for a huge amount of money, but
because we actually believe in

726
00:36:07,600 –> 00:36:10,520
the fucking Constitution, right?
And we’re willing to serve.

727
00:36:10,880 –> 00:36:12,920
And there’s my I’m get off my
fucking soapbox.

728
00:36:13,080 –> 00:36:17,520
I’m there now, John.
What do you think you I mean you

729
00:36:17,520 –> 00:36:19,120
got?
It’s the doughnut holes that I

730
00:36:19,120 –> 00:36:19,880
like.
Yeah.

731
00:36:20,760 –> 00:36:24,920
I like hearing you describe
Langley as it almost sounds like

732
00:36:24,920 –> 00:36:29,600
just any office environment.
And that way it reminds me, I

733
00:36:29,720 –> 00:36:33,760
about 10-12 years ago got a job
working for Playboy.

734
00:36:33,880 –> 00:36:37,480
And at one point they sold all
of their digital properties to

735
00:36:37,480 –> 00:36:40,160
this huge porn company called
Manwin.

736
00:36:40,760 –> 00:36:45,520
And they flew me out to man wind
to tour the offices and things.

737
00:36:45,640 –> 00:36:49,640
And at one point I’m walking
through all the cubicles and

738
00:36:49,640 –> 00:36:53,280
there’s a column in the middle
of this aisle and it’s just

739
00:36:53,280 –> 00:36:56,560
plastered with kids artwork from
school.

740
00:36:57,960 –> 00:37:02,920
And then in the left it’s just
people editing breasts and butt.

741
00:37:03,920 –> 00:37:08,000
And it’s like so normal.
I like like old women just

742
00:37:08,000 –> 00:37:10,520
editing.
That’s what CI is like.

743
00:37:10,720 –> 00:37:13,000
What’s interesting is yes, so if
you wanted to come there and

744
00:37:13,000 –> 00:37:17,200
show something this cool, there
really isn’t very much that

745
00:37:17,200 –> 00:37:20,960
that’s cool with about when they
created in 2004, after the all

746
00:37:20,960 –> 00:37:23,800
the stuff with 911, they created
the director of National

747
00:37:23,800 –> 00:37:26,200
Intelligence, right?
And the idea was to coordinate

748
00:37:26,200 –> 00:37:28,440
the budgets and everything of
all the intelligence community.

749
00:37:28,440 –> 00:37:31,280
So used to be the director of
CIA coordinated all the

750
00:37:31,320 –> 00:37:33,720
community.
And then after 2004 they rewrote

751
00:37:33,720 –> 00:37:36,200
the law and decided they were
going to create this new job

752
00:37:36,360 –> 00:37:37,480
director of National
Intelligence.

753
00:37:37,480 –> 00:37:39,960
So they built a new building
that’s not too far from where

754
00:37:39,960 –> 00:37:43,720
the CIA building is.
And they decided and maybe they

755
00:37:43,720 –> 00:37:45,280
needed to have one place.
It was cool.

756
00:37:45,280 –> 00:37:47,840
So where the counterterrorism,
their version of the

757
00:37:47,840 –> 00:37:50,480
counterterrorism center, NCTC
was created.

758
00:37:50,600 –> 00:37:54,120
They actually went to Disney and
said we want to create this

759
00:37:54,120 –> 00:37:56,840
space where there’s like big
TV’s and things.

760
00:37:56,840 –> 00:37:59,880
So like people can sit like a,
that you see a NASA and look at

761
00:37:59,880 –> 00:38:02,680
stuff and whatever, whatever.
So like if someone’s coming and

762
00:38:02,680 –> 00:38:04,360
they were trying to impress
them, they take them over to

763
00:38:04,360 –> 00:38:07,040
NCTC and they show them like
this big room with it looks like

764
00:38:07,040 –> 00:38:09,320
what it’s supposed to on TV.
But we go over to, yeah, it’s

765
00:38:09,320 –> 00:38:10,920
the same thing.
There’s kids pictures on the

766
00:38:10,920 –> 00:38:13,920
walls and, you know, coffee mugs
dirty.

767
00:38:14,200 –> 00:38:16,240
But it’s true.
We joke about AD and I that this

768
00:38:16,240 –> 00:38:20,080
big office, they created all
this kind of stuff, and a lot of

769
00:38:20,080 –> 00:38:22,400
us are very frustrated that
they’ve it’s just almost

770
00:38:22,400 –> 00:38:24,120
bureaucracy for bureaucracy’s
sake.

771
00:38:24,160 –> 00:38:26,560
They got this really cool
looking room, and all they do

772
00:38:26,560 –> 00:38:30,320
there, if you actually ask them,
is, well, the CIA is doing this

773
00:38:30,320 –> 00:38:33,120
or the FBI counterintelligence
is doing this, The NSA is doing

774
00:38:33,120 –> 00:38:34,320
this.
What do you do?

775
00:38:34,400 –> 00:38:36,880
We got a cool room where we talk
about what other people do,

776
00:38:36,920 –> 00:38:38,880
right?
Don’t do kids shit.

777
00:38:39,320 –> 00:38:40,800
I’m sorry.
I don’t think the DNI should

778
00:38:40,800 –> 00:38:42,920
even exist.
Or if it is, it should be like

779
00:38:43,040 –> 00:38:44,560
three dozen people.
But yeah.

780
00:38:45,160 –> 00:38:47,880
What?
Administration started the DNI.

781
00:38:48,240 –> 00:38:50,680
Well, like for a lot of things,
for political reasons.

782
00:38:50,680 –> 00:38:55,800
So after 911 and after the WMD
sort of fiasco, there was a lot

783
00:38:55,800 –> 00:39:00,040
of pressure on President Bush.
There was a big report and the

784
00:39:00,040 –> 00:39:02,480
WMD report came out and had
these recommendations from all

785
00:39:02,480 –> 00:39:04,320
these experts and politicians
and stuff.

786
00:39:04,400 –> 00:39:06,360
And it said, you know, you
should do a you should do all

787
00:39:06,360 –> 00:39:07,800
these things.
And one of them is create a

788
00:39:07,800 –> 00:39:11,240
larger group to make sure that,
you know, one of the ideas of

789
00:39:11,240 –> 00:39:13,880
911 was the FBI and CIA aren’t
talking enough together.

790
00:39:13,880 –> 00:39:16,800
Now, I worked with the FBI a lot
before 911, so I don’t

791
00:39:16,920 –> 00:39:18,960
necessarily buy that.
But that became sort of the

792
00:39:18,960 –> 00:39:21,240
talking point is like these
organizations are working, but

793
00:39:21,240 –> 00:39:22,200
they’re not talking to each
other.

794
00:39:22,200 –> 00:39:24,600
Let’s create an organization
that forces them to work

795
00:39:24,600 –> 00:39:27,360
together and talk to each other.
And then if you remember in the

796
00:39:27,360 –> 00:39:30,640
lead up the 2004 election, John
Kerry was running.

797
00:39:30,640 –> 00:39:33,600
And once that report came out,
literally the next day, like he

798
00:39:33,600 –> 00:39:36,120
couldn’t even have read it.
The next day he said, if I’m

799
00:39:36,120 –> 00:39:38,840
president, I’m going to make all
of these things happen, you

800
00:39:38,840 –> 00:39:40,640
know?
And so then Bush said, had to

801
00:39:40,640 –> 00:39:42,640
say for political reasons, I’m
in charge.

802
00:39:42,640 –> 00:39:44,280
I’m going to have all these
things happen.

803
00:39:44,280 –> 00:39:46,840
And so quickly they went over to
the Congress and said, write up

804
00:39:46,840 –> 00:39:48,640
a law saying we’re going to make
this new thing.

805
00:39:48,720 –> 00:39:51,320
And literally within weeks or
just a couple months, they put

806
00:39:51,320 –> 00:39:54,040
together a pretty slapdash law
to create this thing.

807
00:39:54,040 –> 00:39:56,800
So political reasons, they were
essentially saying I’ve now

808
00:39:56,800 –> 00:39:59,960
solved the problem of 911.
Now these places have to talk

809
00:39:59,960 –> 00:40:01,840
together because I’ve created
this new organization.

810
00:40:02,280 –> 00:40:04,600
Now of course they didn’t really
a new organization just would.

811
00:40:04,680 –> 00:40:07,480
They would take like the office
from the CIA and office from

812
00:40:07,480 –> 00:40:08,960
Defense Department.
They would stick them in this

813
00:40:08,960 –> 00:40:10,480
new building.
It was the same people.

814
00:40:10,600 –> 00:40:13,240
And then overtime they’ve added
new people and responsibilities

815
00:40:13,240 –> 00:40:14,760
and things, but for political
reasons.

816
00:40:14,960 –> 00:40:16,440
Yeah, they’re not talking to
each other because of

817
00:40:16,440 –> 00:40:18,360
bureaucratic reasons.
So let’s just create more

818
00:40:18,360 –> 00:40:19,640
bureaucracy.
Let’s hire another.

819
00:40:20,960 –> 00:40:25,320
Very government response.
Another listener question from

820
00:40:25,400 –> 00:40:32,880
Purso How much of what we see in
terms of the CIA in Hollywood is

821
00:40:32,960 –> 00:40:37,880
a natural development of
Hollywood wanting to glorify the

822
00:40:37,880 –> 00:40:43,040
profession and how much of it is
specifically pitched by vested

823
00:40:43,040 –> 00:40:47,800
interests like interesting CIA
cause the CIA has a Hollywood

824
00:40:47,800 –> 00:40:50,520
liaison, sort of.
Office right, That’s

825
00:40:50,520 –> 00:40:52,880
interesting.
So I’ll let I’ll go quick and

826
00:40:52,880 –> 00:40:54,880
then let Jerry go.
So so Jerry and I actually have

827
00:40:54,880 –> 00:40:57,520
a company that’s when we both
retired and we got together.

828
00:40:57,520 –> 00:40:59,720
We created a company called
Spycraft Entertainment and our

829
00:40:59,800 –> 00:41:02,560
idea was we were going to try to
take content stories, real

830
00:41:02,560 –> 00:41:05,080
stories that we knew and try to
work with Hollywood to make

831
00:41:05,080 –> 00:41:08,040
better TV shows and movies that
are more realistic, you know,

832
00:41:08,040 –> 00:41:10,200
more authentic.
And so we’ve been doing that now

833
00:41:10,200 –> 00:41:12,160
for almost what, 8-8 years or
more?

834
00:41:12,160 –> 00:41:14,280
That’s crazy.
It takes forever in Hollywood to

835
00:41:14,280 –> 00:41:16,240
make shows.
And of course, so we’re going to

836
00:41:16,240 –> 00:41:18,200
meet, and probably after this
meeting, we’re going to be

837
00:41:18,200 –> 00:41:21,120
meeting with producers and
writers and things in Hollywood

838
00:41:21,120 –> 00:41:23,760
talk about shows.
And people talk to us about, you

839
00:41:23,760 –> 00:41:25,440
know, which shows are realistic
and which aren’t.

840
00:41:25,680 –> 00:41:29,600
So the CIA does have a public
affairs section, and they’re

841
00:41:29,600 –> 00:41:32,080
supposed to sort of pay
attention to what’s out there

842
00:41:32,080 –> 00:41:33,520
publicly.
And if they think they should

843
00:41:33,520 –> 00:41:37,320
support a show or movie, I think
reported like Zero Dark 30, the

844
00:41:37,320 –> 00:41:40,720
CIA sort of helped them with it.
But it’s a pretty small group of

845
00:41:40,720 –> 00:41:44,880
people that aren’t incredibly
integrated into the work the CIA

846
00:41:44,920 –> 00:41:46,440
does.
We’ve done some work with them

847
00:41:46,440 –> 00:41:48,520
and they’re nice people, but
they’re not coming out and

848
00:41:48,520 –> 00:41:50,280
saying, hey, we want you to do
this, we want you to do that.

849
00:41:50,400 –> 00:41:52,440
I don’t think they would even
know how to do that.

850
00:41:52,440 –> 00:41:55,760
I think the Defense Department
has a bigger role in those kind

851
00:41:55,760 –> 00:41:57,480
of things.
You know, there’s a big office

852
00:41:57,480 –> 00:42:00,080
that like make sure there’s fly
overs of football games and all

853
00:42:00,080 –> 00:42:02,240
this type of stuff.
I think they, we know, work with

854
00:42:02,320 –> 00:42:05,440
Top Gun and make sure that, you
know, give them equipment so

855
00:42:05,440 –> 00:42:07,040
they can use them in the movies
and stuff like that.

856
00:42:07,040 –> 00:42:08,920
CA doesn’t have that kind of
role.

857
00:42:09,160 –> 00:42:12,560
But I think they would be mildly
supportive if a movie looked

858
00:42:12,560 –> 00:42:14,960
positive about the CIA, they
would try to find a way to

859
00:42:15,080 –> 00:42:17,840
mildly help.
And so, yeah, Hollywood, one of

860
00:42:17,840 –> 00:42:20,840
the hardest things that Jerry
and I do is we work.

861
00:42:20,840 –> 00:42:23,120
We we spend a lot of time
working with producers, working

862
00:42:23,120 –> 00:42:26,040
with writers about coming up
with ideas and concepts.

863
00:42:26,120 –> 00:42:28,280
And often times the writers,
they just fall back on what

864
00:42:28,280 –> 00:42:31,400
they’ve seen on TV before.
So like, sure, the view of

865
00:42:31,520 –> 00:42:34,080
Hollywood is, you know, that we,
yeah, we drove fast cars and we

866
00:42:34,080 –> 00:42:37,880
have guns and, you know, we go
rogue and we’re hiding from and

867
00:42:37,880 –> 00:42:40,040
there’s an evil bureaucrat and
there’s all that kind of stuff.

868
00:42:40,040 –> 00:42:42,880
And we keep saying, no, no, no,
no, no, let’s scale that back.

869
00:42:42,880 –> 00:42:45,400
That’s not how it works.
But Hollywood loves that stuff.

870
00:42:45,680 –> 00:42:48,800
Yeah, I think they just ignore
us and we sit with writers and

871
00:42:48,800 –> 00:42:50,960
it’s not exactly like this.
And most of them are really

872
00:42:50,960 –> 00:42:53,200
nice.
They’re selling a product,

873
00:42:53,200 –> 00:42:55,400
Hollywood, right?
So it’s like, well, what sells

874
00:42:55,400 –> 00:42:58,160
sex action?
So you sit down and this

875
00:42:58,160 –> 00:42:59,680
conversation never actually
happened.

876
00:42:59,680 –> 00:43:02,800
But it’s like, so John and I is
like, so tell us about all the

877
00:43:02,800 –> 00:43:05,160
times you’ve been chased, you
know, like been in the car

878
00:43:05,160 –> 00:43:08,320
chase.
Never tell us about the times

879
00:43:08,320 –> 00:43:12,320
you’ve karate chopped people.
Never, you know, tell us about,

880
00:43:12,360 –> 00:43:14,600
you know, your gun collection.
I don’t own 1.

881
00:43:14,840 –> 00:43:17,760
You know, it’s like, tell us,
you know, the, you know, it’s

882
00:43:17,760 –> 00:43:19,920
like the times you walk in your
bedroom and there’s some, you

883
00:43:19,920 –> 00:43:22,880
know, beautiful woman laying in
bed with a foreign accent, which

884
00:43:22,880 –> 00:43:25,760
is actually true in my case
because my wife is British,

885
00:43:25,800 –> 00:43:27,200
right?
You know, but I got 3 kids.

886
00:43:27,200 –> 00:43:28,400
I’ve been married for 40 years,
right?

887
00:43:28,400 –> 00:43:33,040
So it’s not, you know, it’s
like, well, fuck, this isn’t

888
00:43:33,200 –> 00:43:35,640
instead of taking the cool stuff
that we do, which is actually

889
00:43:35,640 –> 00:43:38,480
pretty cool, sometimes they’re
like, yeah, let’s just have a

890
00:43:38,480 –> 00:43:41,440
car chase scene with guns and
sex and explosions because they

891
00:43:41,440 –> 00:43:43,160
think that’s what the audience
wants.

892
00:43:43,160 –> 00:43:46,040
And maybe the audience kind of
does want that to a certain

893
00:43:46,040 –> 00:43:48,240
extent.
But I think they audiences would

894
00:43:48,240 –> 00:43:51,280
be really interested in the
human dimension of what we do,

895
00:43:51,280 –> 00:43:52,920
the drama.
But that’s pretty rare.

896
00:43:53,760 –> 00:43:56,480
Drunken Donut along those same
lines.

897
00:43:57,440 –> 00:44:00,240
I support that.
Says Can you enjoy watching any

898
00:44:00,240 –> 00:44:03,000
of the Bond films, or does your
personal experience?

899
00:44:03,000 –> 00:44:06,400
Make you criticize every.
Part of the story, I just flew

900
00:44:06,400 –> 00:44:07,600
back.
I was just with my family in

901
00:44:07,600 –> 00:44:10,640
Scotland and I make on the way
back I watch 2 Bond films.

902
00:44:10,640 –> 00:44:12,760
I watch Skyfall because it has a
Scotland scene and stuff.

903
00:44:12,840 –> 00:44:15,200
Yeah, I love the Bond films and
I love, I like the Bourne films

904
00:44:15,200 –> 00:44:17,320
and I like all those kind of
things, but not because they’re

905
00:44:17,760 –> 00:44:21,240
realistic or anything like the
British like them because people

906
00:44:21,240 –> 00:44:23,760
then think that the British
intelligence services, you know,

907
00:44:23,760 –> 00:44:26,720
SISMI sex, they’re sort of like
James Bond.

908
00:44:26,720 –> 00:44:27,880
And so they sort of live off
that.

909
00:44:27,880 –> 00:44:29,760
So when they’re out in the
field, they, you know, people

910
00:44:29,760 –> 00:44:31,320
are like, oh, the British, they
know spying.

911
00:44:31,320 –> 00:44:34,880
Let’s go talk to the British.
So yeah, we like those movies

912
00:44:34,880 –> 00:44:37,320
too.
Slow Horses is a good one about

913
00:44:37,440 –> 00:44:39,800
less successful British spies
and things like that.

914
00:44:39,800 –> 00:44:41,880
But yeah, so I like the Bond
films.

915
00:44:42,040 –> 00:44:44,880
Yeah, I mean, I like Star Trek
too, and superhero movies, but

916
00:44:44,880 –> 00:44:47,760
it doesn’t mean I you suspend
disbelief in watching them.

917
00:44:47,800 –> 00:44:50,000
So yeah, Bond is great,
everybody should watch it, but

918
00:44:50,040 –> 00:44:53,200
it’s not the way it is.
Spooks Weaver so well.

919
00:44:53,200 –> 00:44:57,200
You just mentioned MI 6 and them
wanting to look more suave by

920
00:44:57,200 –> 00:45:01,240
way of James Bond so this makes
for a good follow up question.

921
00:45:01,320 –> 00:45:04,840
Which other nation has the most
boring agents you’ve interacted

922
00:45:04,840 –> 00:45:05,920
with?
Boring.

923
00:45:05,920 –> 00:45:07,120
That’s a hard one.
Germans it.

924
00:45:07,360 –> 00:45:10,760
Feels like it would be hard to
be an intelligence agent and be

925
00:45:10,760 –> 00:45:12,720
boring.
Well, Jerry’s got a lot of

926
00:45:12,720 –> 00:45:14,240
experience in Germany, and so
that’s funny.

927
00:45:16,360 –> 00:45:19,040
I’m sorry the B&D love the
Germans, but yeah, they’re

928
00:45:19,040 –> 00:45:23,080
pretty dull.
Yeah, yeah, it’d be.

929
00:45:23,080 –> 00:45:25,440
Professional but dull.
There’s not a lot of

930
00:45:25,440 –> 00:45:28,200
organizations that have a
worldwide presence like we do.

931
00:45:28,200 –> 00:45:31,160
So essentially, you know, the
United States has interests

932
00:45:31,160 –> 00:45:33,680
around the world, and so we have
people in Africa and Asia and

933
00:45:33,680 –> 00:45:37,280
Europe and all over the place.
And the British do, but to a

934
00:45:37,280 –> 00:45:39,240
lesser extent.
The Russians and Chinese

935
00:45:39,240 –> 00:45:40,960
certainly do.
I mean, Russia’s actually, you

936
00:45:40,960 –> 00:45:43,520
know, an economy the size of
Portugal, but they have spies

937
00:45:43,520 –> 00:45:47,080
everywhere because they rely on
their intelligence security

938
00:45:47,080 –> 00:45:50,360
services for not just collecting
information like ours does, but

939
00:45:50,360 –> 00:45:54,120
also for creating havoc and
chaos and disinformation.

940
00:45:54,120 –> 00:45:56,680
All those things we’ve seen
against our country even, but

941
00:45:56,720 –> 00:45:58,440
other places have, you know,
regional interests like.

942
00:45:58,440 –> 00:46:02,720
So the Israelis are really good,
you know, at Iran and in their

943
00:46:03,040 –> 00:46:06,960
area, maybe less so on things
that are far away from Israel.

944
00:46:07,040 –> 00:46:09,440
But you know, the Egyptians have
intelligence service and the

945
00:46:09,440 –> 00:46:11,360
French have an intelligence
service in the towns.

946
00:46:11,360 –> 00:46:13,960
They all have, you know, and
Malaysians and everybody else

947
00:46:13,960 –> 00:46:16,960
have often times internal
services and external services

948
00:46:16,960 –> 00:46:20,000
maybe smaller than ours, all the
Australians we work with.

949
00:46:20,040 –> 00:46:24,120
But yeah, most of them are nice.
They’re trying to do, you know,

950
00:46:24,160 –> 00:46:26,400
their job to support their
policy makers.

951
00:46:26,680 –> 00:46:29,360
Except I would tip that question
on its head.

952
00:46:29,360 –> 00:46:32,760
There are intelligence services,
and these are basically like we

953
00:46:32,760 –> 00:46:36,800
think of the MI 6 or the BNDCIA.
Our job is to collect

954
00:46:36,800 –> 00:46:38,560
intelligence.
But then there are security

955
00:46:38,560 –> 00:46:40,360
services, which you can’t say
this.

956
00:46:40,440 –> 00:46:44,560
So like the North Koreans, the
Iranians, even the Russians, you

957
00:46:44,560 –> 00:46:48,080
know, they have a different job.
And their job is to, you know,

958
00:46:48,080 –> 00:46:50,320
is to support the state and they
deal.

959
00:46:50,320 –> 00:46:52,040
And, you know, they’re very
different.

960
00:46:52,200 –> 00:46:55,360
You know, the Gru, the Russian
military intelligence, I mean,

961
00:46:55,360 –> 00:46:57,240
these guys are like, yeah, we
kill people.

962
00:46:57,600 –> 00:47:00,280
We go after dissidents.
We don’t do that.

963
00:47:00,680 –> 00:47:02,840
And you can kind of tell which
is which by whether they’re

964
00:47:02,840 –> 00:47:05,480
afraid of their own governments.
If you ever get the chance to

965
00:47:05,480 –> 00:47:09,160
sit down with a North Korean
right intelligence officer, they

966
00:47:09,160 –> 00:47:12,480
are scared shitless.
They’re going to say the wrong

967
00:47:12,480 –> 00:47:16,280
thing because like, you get
called back or Russians, you

968
00:47:16,280 –> 00:47:18,280
know, they’re worried they’re
going to say something against

969
00:47:18,280 –> 00:47:19,680
Putin and they’re going to get
called back.

970
00:47:19,680 –> 00:47:22,000
And up until this
administration, you know, if you

971
00:47:22,000 –> 00:47:25,080
wanted to, you could, you know,
not as part of your official

972
00:47:25,080 –> 00:47:28,080
duties, you could say, you know,
fuck Obama or fuck Clinton, and

973
00:47:28,200 –> 00:47:30,800
nothing’s going to happen to you
because we have a democracy and

974
00:47:30,800 –> 00:47:33,680
you’re allowed to say things.
But people and security services

975
00:47:33,680 –> 00:47:35,440
aren’t allowed to do that.
By and large.

976
00:47:35,440 –> 00:47:38,360
They, you know, Chinese.
One instance of I know of a

977
00:47:38,360 –> 00:47:40,840
Chinese intelligence officer,
he’s like, fuck, I went to

978
00:47:40,840 –> 00:47:43,000
church.
If I get caught because I went

979
00:47:43,000 –> 00:47:46,520
into a church, they’re going to
pull me home and fire me.

980
00:47:46,520 –> 00:47:49,440
I could go to jail.
That’s a Security Service,

981
00:47:49,440 –> 00:47:51,400
right?
He’s there for the Chinese

982
00:47:51,400 –> 00:47:54,760
Communist Party, not to just
collect intelligence.

983
00:47:54,960 –> 00:47:58,440
The way I look at it is those
kind of countries, Western

984
00:47:58,440 –> 00:48:01,040
countries, their intelligence
services are about national

985
00:48:01,040 –> 00:48:03,680
security, right?
They’re about securing, keeping

986
00:48:03,680 –> 00:48:06,480
the American citizens safe.
Whereas countries like China,

987
00:48:06,480 –> 00:48:09,360
Russia, North Korea, those, it’s
about regime security, it’s

988
00:48:09,360 –> 00:48:11,480
about keeping the leadership in
power at all cost.

989
00:48:11,480 –> 00:48:13,560
So that’s why they have a big
domestic role.

990
00:48:13,560 –> 00:48:15,600
Like they don’t want any
political opposition.

991
00:48:15,640 –> 00:48:18,640
So Putin’s security services,
their main role is making sure

992
00:48:18,640 –> 00:48:22,560
no one, there’s no political
threat to Putin inside that, you

993
00:48:22,560 –> 00:48:23,880
know, they arrest the people
they need to.

994
00:48:23,880 –> 00:48:26,560
And then overseas, they’re sort
of the weapon of the state.

995
00:48:26,560 –> 00:48:28,960
So it’s regime security versus
national security.

996
00:48:30,000 –> 00:48:32,280
You just mentioned Russia.
We have AI.

997
00:48:32,600 –> 00:48:35,480
Think a good listener.
Question about Russia from a

998
00:48:35,680 –> 00:48:38,880
listener named Bar Lock.
Do you believe that Russia has

999
00:48:38,880 –> 00:48:41,720
compromising information on
Trump?

1000
00:48:42,320 –> 00:48:45,400
Oh, that’s a good one.
So yeah, I served in Moscow, I

1001
00:48:45,920 –> 00:48:49,520
speak Russian, and I worked on,
you know, at our headquarters on

1002
00:48:49,520 –> 00:48:53,120
worldwide Russia issues.
I write on Russia and those type

1003
00:48:53,120 –> 00:48:54,880
of things.
I’ve even written an article on

1004
00:48:54,880 –> 00:48:57,480
is Donald Trump a Russian spy?
If you want to read it.

1005
00:48:57,520 –> 00:49:00,720
I think it’s in just Security,
which is a platform that writes

1006
00:49:00,720 –> 00:49:03,920
about those kind of things.
So that’s a very complicated

1007
00:49:03,920 –> 00:49:06,400
thing we I could talk about for
a quite a long time.

1008
00:49:06,400 –> 00:49:09,680
So the Russians, yeah.
So Jerry and I, like we were

1009
00:49:09,720 –> 00:49:12,680
saying we would try to recruit a
source that can give us the

1010
00:49:12,680 –> 00:49:14,320
secrets that our policy makers
need.

1011
00:49:14,320 –> 00:49:18,160
So if our policy makers need to
know what the Iranian regime is

1012
00:49:18,160 –> 00:49:21,600
thinking, you know, we got
academics, we got satellites, we

1013
00:49:21,600 –> 00:49:23,840
got diplomats.
And if they’re not getting that

1014
00:49:23,840 –> 00:49:26,560
answer, then they want us to try
to find someone that can steal

1015
00:49:26,560 –> 00:49:29,360
that information, that can tell
us those thoughts and intentions

1016
00:49:29,360 –> 00:49:31,280
of the leadership.
But the Russian intelligence

1017
00:49:31,280 –> 00:49:34,160
services, you know, they’re
looking to collect information,

1018
00:49:34,160 –> 00:49:38,240
but they’re also looking to take
active measures to create chaos,

1019
00:49:38,240 –> 00:49:43,360
to support radical groups, to
spread disinformation, to spread

1020
00:49:43,360 –> 00:49:44,800
subversion, these type of
things.

1021
00:49:44,840 –> 00:49:48,640
And so, yeah, Donald Trump
travelled in the 70s and things

1022
00:49:48,920 –> 00:49:50,520
to Russia.
He’s always had sort of this

1023
00:49:50,520 –> 00:49:52,960
fascination and interest in
Russia, maybe for business

1024
00:49:52,960 –> 00:49:55,960
reasons or what have you.
The notion that they did not pay

1025
00:49:55,960 –> 00:49:58,640
attention to him with they paid
attention to someone senior like

1026
00:49:58,640 –> 00:50:01,440
that when they visited Russia.
I think they probably did.

1027
00:50:01,480 –> 00:50:05,000
It’s almost any American
official or businessman who

1028
00:50:05,000 –> 00:50:07,000
travels to Russia.
They’re going to maybe we have

1029
00:50:07,200 –> 00:50:10,480
cameras in your hotel, maybe
question everybody you talk to,

1030
00:50:10,560 –> 00:50:13,240
maybe try to, you know, put
someone in touch with you to try

1031
00:50:13,240 –> 00:50:16,560
to, you know, we’ve seen them
use what they call swallows

1032
00:50:16,560 –> 00:50:19,440
women to try to like have
relationships with foreigners so

1033
00:50:19,480 –> 00:50:21,600
that they can report on them and
these type of things.

1034
00:50:21,600 –> 00:50:24,480
So the Russians have always been
interested, I think in Donald

1035
00:50:24,480 –> 00:50:27,200
Trump.
Now, had they recruited him is a

1036
00:50:27,200 –> 00:50:30,400
spy in the sense that Jerry and
I are talking about developing a

1037
00:50:30,400 –> 00:50:33,760
relationship to someone, seeing
what their motivations are, you

1038
00:50:33,760 –> 00:50:37,600
know, getting them to agree to
spy secretly for the United

1039
00:50:37,600 –> 00:50:39,600
States government to give us
information and keep themselves

1040
00:50:39,600 –> 00:50:40,840
secret and follow our
directions.

1041
00:50:40,920 –> 00:50:42,600
I don’t think Donald Trump could
do that.

1042
00:50:42,600 –> 00:50:45,600
I don’t think he’s disciplined
enough to meet secretly with

1043
00:50:45,600 –> 00:50:48,720
anybody or to keep his mouth
shut or to, you know, we need to

1044
00:50:48,720 –> 00:50:51,880
meet you on the corner of
whatever, wherever.

1045
00:50:51,880 –> 00:50:54,680
It’s this time.
And I want you to debrief on

1046
00:50:54,720 –> 00:50:56,600
these specific topics that
you’ve had.

1047
00:50:56,640 –> 00:50:59,800
Like I he would be a complete
nightmare for intelligence

1048
00:50:59,800 –> 00:51:02,520
service to try to run.
But the Russians also understand

1049
00:51:02,520 –> 00:51:04,560
it.
And they might not run him as a

1050
00:51:04,560 –> 00:51:07,960
spy, like the way we’re thinking
of Jerry and I think about and

1051
00:51:07,960 –> 00:51:11,520
our work, but they might be able
to realize, hey, this guy is a

1052
00:51:11,520 –> 00:51:13,760
loose cannon.
He seems to like us.

1053
00:51:13,800 –> 00:51:17,280
He seems to spout his mouth off.
He seems to believe the last

1054
00:51:17,280 –> 00:51:19,680
thing that he’s heard.
So let’s find a way to put

1055
00:51:19,680 –> 00:51:22,360
information in front of him.
Let’s try to get information

1056
00:51:22,360 –> 00:51:25,600
that’s useful to us, to him.
Let’s put people, you know,

1057
00:51:25,600 –> 00:51:27,600
around him and did meet him from
time to time.

1058
00:51:27,600 –> 00:51:30,480
They’re going to sort of push
the pro Russian view or to give

1059
00:51:30,480 –> 00:51:33,920
bad information about, you know,
Americans that are causing us

1060
00:51:33,920 –> 00:51:37,080
problems or, you know, tell them
the CIA and the State Department

1061
00:51:37,080 –> 00:51:39,480
are evil things.
And so I think he is.

1062
00:51:39,880 –> 00:51:41,040
We did it depends on the word
here.

1063
00:51:41,040 –> 00:51:45,200
He’s an asset to the Russian
state, meaning he helps Russian

1064
00:51:45,200 –> 00:51:48,080
interest, Russian state, he
supports and says Russian

1065
00:51:48,080 –> 00:51:51,120
talking points.
He refuses to see the terrible

1066
00:51:51,120 –> 00:51:53,720
things the Russians are doing.
So he is of use to the Russians

1067
00:51:54,000 –> 00:51:57,480
and I think they manipulate him
in the way that they can.

1068
00:51:57,600 –> 00:52:00,440
Is he a spy for Russia?
I don’t believe that to be the

1069
00:52:00,440 –> 00:52:02,320
case.
And so I tried to lay that out

1070
00:52:02,320 –> 00:52:03,680
of in my article, and I’ll put
it.

1071
00:52:03,840 –> 00:52:06,120
I’ll send it to you here when.
Yeah, rolling to that, but the

1072
00:52:06,120 –> 00:52:09,600
specific question, let me give
you an instance and then you can

1073
00:52:09,600 –> 00:52:11,480
decide.
Your audience could decide.

1074
00:52:11,480 –> 00:52:17,840
So 2016, Donald Trump said very
specifically, I do not have any

1075
00:52:17,840 –> 00:52:19,720
business interests in Russia.
I don’t.

1076
00:52:19,800 –> 00:52:22,280
But he did, right.
I mean, he had the letter of

1077
00:52:22,280 –> 00:52:26,360
intent signed by Rudy Giuliani
has said this publicly that so

1078
00:52:26,360 –> 00:52:30,000
he was negotiating a Trump Tower
in Moscow which did not come to

1079
00:52:30,000 –> 00:52:33,440
pass.
So he had an active business

1080
00:52:33,720 –> 00:52:37,920
negotiation going on and the
Russians knew about it.

1081
00:52:37,960 –> 00:52:41,280
Now, Donald Trump knew about it.
The Russians knew about it.

1082
00:52:41,520 –> 00:52:43,920
So the Russians had something
over him.

1083
00:52:44,080 –> 00:52:47,280
The people who didn’t know that
he had an active business

1084
00:52:47,280 –> 00:52:49,720
negotiation, they had this
letter of intent to build was

1085
00:52:49,720 –> 00:52:51,960
the American people.
And the Russians kept their

1086
00:52:51,960 –> 00:52:55,400
mouths shut, didn’t they?
They didn’t say they had a piece

1087
00:52:55,400 –> 00:52:59,120
of paper they could hold up and
sink Donald Trump to show him to

1088
00:52:59,120 –> 00:53:02,680
be a liar in 2016.
They didn’t use it.

1089
00:53:02,840 –> 00:53:07,600
So they in this one particular
instance, yeah, I would say that

1090
00:53:07,600 –> 00:53:11,480
is proof that they had something
on Donald Trump that he was a

1091
00:53:11,640 –> 00:53:13,440
inveterate liar on this
particular point.

1092
00:53:13,560 –> 00:53:16,360
Now you can argue well, a letter
of intent that’s not negotiated

1093
00:53:16,560 –> 00:53:18,960
bullshit.
He said not I have no no

1094
00:53:18,960 –> 00:53:21,480
business, you know, no business
relationship with Rush.

1095
00:53:21,480 –> 00:53:26,440
All that was clearly false.
So do they have anything now?

1096
00:53:26,520 –> 00:53:30,760
And it’s the question is do they
or did they or what I believe

1097
00:53:30,760 –> 00:53:33,200
and what I can prove, I can’t
prove it except for that one

1098
00:53:33,200 –> 00:53:35,280
point, maybe some other smaller
ones.

1099
00:53:35,360 –> 00:53:38,640
But one last thing your
listeners should think is why

1100
00:53:38,640 –> 00:53:43,000
would Paul Manafort, why was
again 2016?

1101
00:53:43,240 –> 00:53:48,440
Why was his campaign manager
meeting secretly with a Russian

1102
00:53:48,440 –> 00:53:52,200
agent and handing him over
internal campaign documents

1103
00:53:52,200 –> 00:53:55,680
polling like being observed by
the FBII can’t think of any

1104
00:53:55,680 –> 00:53:57,560
reason.
And because that campaign

1105
00:53:57,560 –> 00:54:02,480
manager, he was deeply in debt
to a pro Putin oligarch.

1106
00:54:02,600 –> 00:54:05,800
So, you know, people can put two
and two together and get 6 so

1107
00:54:05,800 –> 00:54:08,640
they can get 4 what I believe or
what they believe.

1108
00:54:08,640 –> 00:54:11,160
But you know, I mean, and then
there’s a whole host of other

1109
00:54:11,160 –> 00:54:13,480
things.
So Russia, Russia, Russia hoax.

1110
00:54:13,480 –> 00:54:15,440
I don’t know.
You explain those things to me,

1111
00:54:15,440 –> 00:54:17,840
why they’re hoaxes, and I’ll,
you know that I’ll, you know

1112
00:54:18,000 –> 00:54:19,800
I’ll be fine with that.
But I can’t.

1113
00:54:20,360 –> 00:54:23,520
Yeah, that reminds me of a thing
that happened recently that I

1114
00:54:23,520 –> 00:54:26,320
feel like hasn’t gotten enough
attention.

1115
00:54:26,320 –> 00:54:29,720
There was that, I guess rumor
that went around.

1116
00:54:29,720 –> 00:54:34,520
I guess it came from the Epstein
files that there is an image of

1117
00:54:34,600 –> 00:54:40,240
Trump blowing Bubba and
immediately went to oh that’s

1118
00:54:40,240 –> 00:54:42,200
Bill Clinton.
That’s Bill Clintons nickname.

1119
00:54:42,360 –> 00:54:46,200
But the actual speculation is I
don’t remember the guys name but

1120
00:54:46,200 –> 00:54:49,400
he’s some billionaire who lives
in Texas.

1121
00:54:49,400 –> 00:54:51,600
The speculation is it’s actually
that guy.

1122
00:54:51,600 –> 00:54:56,080
His nickname is Bubba.
About a week before that

1123
00:54:56,320 –> 00:55:01,280
information was made public,
Cash Patel took a personal trip

1124
00:55:01,280 –> 00:55:05,280
to the ranch owned by the Bubba
in question.

1125
00:55:05,320 –> 00:55:09,640
And no one, I feel like is
asking, well, why did the

1126
00:55:09,640 –> 00:55:13,440
director of the FBI go to that
guy’s ranch right before this

1127
00:55:13,440 –> 00:55:15,440
information about Trump came
out?

1128
00:55:15,520 –> 00:55:17,520
Seems like a question worth
asking.

1129
00:55:17,600 –> 00:55:20,400
The Trump Russia stuff is really
scary stuff.

1130
00:55:20,400 –> 00:55:24,000
Like he has been consistently
supporting of Russia and

1131
00:55:24,000 –> 00:55:26,560
Ukraine.
Clearly the Russians, you know,

1132
00:55:26,560 –> 00:55:30,760
invaded Ukraine, murdering
Ukrainians, but he refuses to

1133
00:55:30,760 –> 00:55:34,320
see the reality of that.
And then he completely attacks

1134
00:55:34,320 –> 00:55:37,480
anybody who talks about Russia.
So there’s an incredible amount

1135
00:55:37,480 –> 00:55:40,560
of information like what Jerry
was talking about in the 2016

1136
00:55:40,560 –> 00:55:42,680
campaign and others that the
Russians were trying to actively

1137
00:55:42,680 –> 00:55:45,000
help his campaign and other
things, but he goes against it.

1138
00:55:45,320 –> 00:55:48,480
But one thing that he could
solve this, he screams about

1139
00:55:48,480 –> 00:55:51,080
Russia, Russia, Russia, but he
could solve the problem if it

1140
00:55:51,080 –> 00:55:53,640
would just explain why.
Why have you consistently been

1141
00:55:53,640 –> 00:55:56,080
pro Russian?
Why do you support Vlader Putin?

1142
00:55:56,280 –> 00:55:59,320
Why do you support continue to
say Russian talking points?

1143
00:55:59,440 –> 00:56:03,560
Why, when you’re running for
election in 2015 in places like

1144
00:56:03,600 –> 00:56:07,840
Iowa, does your campaign to be
in touch with like 140 Russians?

1145
00:56:07,840 –> 00:56:10,720
What is the benefit if you’re
running for election to have all

1146
00:56:10,720 –> 00:56:12,600
these Russians?
What’s happened is he’s attacked

1147
00:56:12,600 –> 00:56:15,920
and attacked and attacked, but
not once has he ever just tried

1148
00:56:15,920 –> 00:56:18,600
to say here’s why I here’s why
I’m in touch with all these

1149
00:56:18,600 –> 00:56:19,920
Russians.
Here’s why I want to do business

1150
00:56:19,920 –> 00:56:21,720
with Russia.
Here’s what why all my people in

1151
00:56:21,720 –> 00:56:23,400
touch with Russians, Here’s why
I support Russia.

1152
00:56:23,400 –> 00:56:25,640
Never.
If he could just explain that,

1153
00:56:25,920 –> 00:56:27,760
maybe he wouldn’t get attacked
so much.

1154
00:56:28,160 –> 00:56:29,920
Right.
It was a plank in the Republican

1155
00:56:29,920 –> 00:56:35,040
Party platform in 2015 that they
would strongly support Ukraine,

1156
00:56:35,040 –> 00:56:36,440
right?
Against Russian aggression.

1157
00:56:36,440 –> 00:56:41,240
Trump wins the nomination and
that plank is quietly dropped.

1158
00:56:41,360 –> 00:56:42,800
Why?
Who ordered that?

1159
00:56:42,800 –> 00:56:45,720
How did that happen?
The entire party, everybody in

1160
00:56:45,720 –> 00:56:47,760
the party was we are going to
support Ukraine.

1161
00:56:48,120 –> 00:56:50,000
He becomes in and then that’s
dropped.

1162
00:56:50,120 –> 00:56:51,640
Why?
Where’s the paperwork on there?

1163
00:56:51,640 –> 00:56:54,440
Where’s the meetings conspiracy?
I don’t know.

1164
00:56:54,440 –> 00:56:59,240
But as CIA officers, we don’t,
we deal in probabilities often,

1165
00:56:59,240 –> 00:57:00,600
right?
It’s more likely than not.

1166
00:57:00,680 –> 00:57:04,200
The FBI, when they bring a case
to court, they have to prove

1167
00:57:04,200 –> 00:57:06,680
something, you know, beyond a
shadow of a doubt.

1168
00:57:06,680 –> 00:57:09,560
They’ve got to convince jurors
and they have to have it exactly

1169
00:57:09,560 –> 00:57:12,120
right.
In CIA, we can say, you know

1170
00:57:12,120 –> 00:57:17,040
what, I’m 70% convinced to this.
The evidence that it’s true

1171
00:57:17,040 –> 00:57:19,840
strongly outweighs the evidence
that it isn’t true or this

1172
00:57:19,840 –> 00:57:23,320
doesn’t smell right.
So as case officers in the CIA,

1173
00:57:23,400 –> 00:57:26,320
you know, we’re not about
building.

1174
00:57:26,400 –> 00:57:29,520
It’s not our job to build.
Yeah, legal cases.

1175
00:57:29,840 –> 00:57:31,640
So.
So, you know, we can engage in

1176
00:57:31,640 –> 00:57:34,760
this kind of like speculation.
You create a hypothesis, you

1177
00:57:34,760 –> 00:57:38,080
gather information and you
change your hypothesis as the

1178
00:57:38,080 –> 00:57:41,240
information, you know, the
details flow in the facts, but

1179
00:57:41,240 –> 00:57:43,200
you know, these things are still
unexplained.

1180
00:57:43,200 –> 00:57:47,040
So I mean, that’s why, you know,
you asked in the very beginning

1181
00:57:47,040 –> 00:57:48,600
sort of come in full circle,
like what?

1182
00:57:48,640 –> 00:57:52,080
What conspiracies, conspiracy
theories do we believe in?

1183
00:57:52,240 –> 00:57:54,320
I don’t know if these are
conspiracies or conspiracy

1184
00:57:54,320 –> 00:57:59,200
theories, but these are really
counterintelligence red flags is

1185
00:57:59,200 –> 00:58:02,840
what we call them in the CIA
that are still unexplained and

1186
00:58:02,840 –> 00:58:05,320
make me very unease and should
make a lot of people.

1187
00:58:05,400 –> 00:58:08,800
You would never get hired for a
junior position like with Donald

1188
00:58:08,800 –> 00:58:10,760
Trump’s background and the
people around him.

1189
00:58:10,760 –> 00:58:12,320
They would not get security
clearances.

1190
00:58:12,320 –> 00:58:14,720
They wouldn’t get hired for the
most junior jobs in the

1191
00:58:14,720 –> 00:58:17,000
Intelligence Committee, and
they’re now in charge of the

1192
00:58:17,160 –> 00:58:19,600
world’s largest and most
mathless intelligence community.

1193
00:58:19,720 –> 00:58:23,560
Yeah, that’s terrifying.
There’s a conspiracy for it.

1194
00:58:23,560 –> 00:58:26,640
Yeah, Forget Kennedy, man.
What’s going on with this?

1195
00:58:27,000 –> 00:58:29,760
Yeah, OK.
We just have two more questions.

1196
00:58:29,760 –> 00:58:31,400
I appreciate you taking so much
time.

1197
00:58:31,920 –> 00:58:34,240
This last one is this is a me
question.

1198
00:58:34,280 –> 00:58:39,640
What do you think of the claims
or rumors that there are

1199
00:58:39,640 –> 00:58:44,480
intelligence connections to
Jeffrey Epstein and that he was

1200
00:58:44,720 –> 00:58:48,840
perhaps running some sort of
blackmail operation on behalf of

1201
00:58:48,840 –> 00:58:51,680
a government?
And even if you don’t think he

1202
00:58:51,680 –> 00:58:54,760
was, do you think that kind of
thing happens?

1203
00:58:55,200 –> 00:58:56,800
It’s interesting.
So we Jerry and I just did a

1204
00:58:56,800 –> 00:58:59,720
podcast with Tara Palmeri, who
does a lot of research on the

1205
00:58:59,760 –> 00:59:03,120
Epstein stuff and I actually did
at her podcast to talk about

1206
00:59:03,240 –> 00:59:04,880
exactly that.
What are the connections with

1207
00:59:04,880 –> 00:59:07,480
intelligence and stuff just the
way we do business.

1208
00:59:07,520 –> 00:59:11,280
I cannot imagine Jeffrey Epstein
being of any value or interest

1209
00:59:11,280 –> 00:59:13,640
to the US intelligence
community, at least a foreign

1210
00:59:13,760 –> 00:59:15,480
intelligence part of it ever
talking to him.

1211
00:59:15,480 –> 00:59:19,880
Now he does have through Galene
Maxwell’s family.

1212
00:59:19,960 –> 00:59:23,960
Her father is a huge influence
person in Britain and in Israel

1213
00:59:23,960 –> 00:59:26,320
and stuff like that.
There’s certainly a possibility

1214
00:59:26,360 –> 00:59:29,040
when you’re playing with those
big players at big money that

1215
00:59:29,040 –> 00:59:32,120
there’s some, there’s security
services, intelligence services

1216
00:59:32,120 –> 00:59:34,400
sort of following him and there
might have some connections at a

1217
00:59:34,400 –> 00:59:38,320
high level, probably more with
politicians than people who in

1218
00:59:38,320 –> 00:59:41,280
the intelligence communities.
But I can’t see any value why

1219
00:59:41,280 –> 00:59:43,800
the CIA would ever talk to him
or talk to his people.

1220
00:59:43,960 –> 00:59:46,960
He has no foreign intelligence
to pass on.

1221
00:59:46,960 –> 00:59:49,680
He might, because of connections
in Israel and stuff, want to

1222
00:59:49,720 –> 00:59:51,200
talk to some of our senior
politicians.

1223
00:59:51,200 –> 00:59:53,640
And one of them you might say,
oh, that’s very important,

1224
00:59:53,640 –> 00:59:56,200
Jeffrey, maybe you should tell
the FBI or tell the CIA or

1225
00:59:56,200 –> 00:59:57,440
something.
That’s certainly possible.

1226
00:59:57,440 –> 01:00:00,680
But the sense that he would be
like a source doesn’t make any

1227
01:00:00,680 –> 01:00:02,640
sense.
But, you know, like I said,

1228
01:00:02,760 –> 01:00:05,720
those big players and big money
people have connections around

1229
01:00:05,720 –> 01:00:09,040
the world and it’s kind of thing
that organizations at some level

1230
01:00:09,040 –> 01:00:11,680
might touch.
Yeah, I think or you know,

1231
01:00:12,000 –> 01:00:16,160
organizations like MI 6, Mossad,
CIA might be interested in what

1232
01:00:16,160 –> 01:00:18,760
he has to say from time to time.
I’m not sure we would go out

1233
01:00:18,800 –> 01:00:21,080
and, you know, we certainly
would not recruit.

1234
01:00:21,080 –> 01:00:23,760
How could we recruit him, right?
I mean, you know, he’s for money

1235
01:00:23,760 –> 01:00:25,920
for it, but he might want to
like pass things on.

1236
01:00:25,920 –> 01:00:28,760
I mean, just recently it came
out, for example, that he was

1237
01:00:28,760 –> 01:00:31,520
talking to Larry Summers,
Clinton’s former Treasury

1238
01:00:31,520 –> 01:00:35,000
Secretary, where he was talking
about, he was talking to Anatoly

1239
01:00:35,000 –> 01:00:38,400
Churkin, who was the Russian
ambassador to the United States

1240
01:00:38,400 –> 01:00:41,160
and an intelligence officer.
And he was saying, hey, I want

1241
01:00:41,160 –> 01:00:44,200
to talk to the Russians about
Donald Trump, right?

1242
01:00:44,200 –> 01:00:47,200
I want to pass to to the Russian
foreign minister.

1243
01:00:47,200 –> 01:00:49,880
I want to talk to him about
Donald Trump.

1244
01:00:50,080 –> 01:00:52,280
And so, you know, OK, that gets
him into.

1245
01:00:52,720 –> 01:00:55,480
I could see him then going to
CIA and said, oh, I, you know, I

1246
01:00:55,480 –> 01:00:57,160
talked to the Russian foreign
minister Ivanov.

1247
01:00:57,160 –> 01:00:58,320
Do you want to know what he had
to say?

1248
01:00:58,560 –> 01:01:01,800
And we would probably say, yeah,
but there’s a big difference

1249
01:01:01,800 –> 01:01:05,280
between, sure, we’ll send a, you
know, we’ll send an analyst to,

1250
01:01:05,280 –> 01:01:08,080
like, take notes where you tell
us about, you know, your meeting

1251
01:01:08,080 –> 01:01:09,680
with senior Russians or
whatever.

1252
01:01:09,680 –> 01:01:11,680
And the Israelis might do the
same or something like that.

1253
01:01:11,920 –> 01:01:14,440
But that’s not, you know, he’s
not part of the CIA.

1254
01:01:14,480 –> 01:01:16,720
He’s a guy with it, maybe with
some information.

1255
01:01:16,720 –> 01:01:17,800
I don’t even know if he did
that.

1256
01:01:17,800 –> 01:01:21,520
But I’m saying I wouldn’t be
surprised if he tried to, you

1257
01:01:21,520 –> 01:01:23,160
know, if he tried to get into
that world.

1258
01:01:23,240 –> 01:01:27,160
Now I’m running like the sex
operations, you know, the

1259
01:01:27,160 –> 01:01:30,360
Russians do that.
I mean, they do CIA doesn’t you

1260
01:01:30,360 –> 01:01:33,080
know, listeners in Hollywood are
going to be really sorry to hear

1261
01:01:33,080 –> 01:01:35,200
this.
We just don’t use sex, right.

1262
01:01:35,320 –> 01:01:38,400
It doesn’t work.
It’s a you know, you know, the

1263
01:01:38,400 –> 01:01:39,640
people who do this, you got
families.

1264
01:01:40,120 –> 01:01:43,680
You know, we have divide by US
laws and CIA.

1265
01:01:43,760 –> 01:01:46,440
You know, we’re normal people.
We’re not going to be doing this

1266
01:01:46,440 –> 01:01:49,480
to U.S. citizens.
And lastly, it just doesn’t

1267
01:01:49,480 –> 01:01:52,120
work.
Sex is not something, by and

1268
01:01:52,120 –> 01:01:54,960
large, that we’re looking for
agents who are going to be

1269
01:01:54,960 –> 01:01:57,640
around for the next 20 years who
want to work with us.

1270
01:01:58,000 –> 01:02:01,000
And if you’ve blackmailed a guy
because you’ve got pictures of

1271
01:02:01,000 –> 01:02:03,720
him with some hooker, he’s a
probably not going to be telling

1272
01:02:03,720 –> 01:02:05,320
you the truth.
B, he’s going to be looking to

1273
01:02:05,320 –> 01:02:08,160
betray you or he’s going to be
looking to stick a shed between

1274
01:02:08,160 –> 01:02:09,800
your ribs first chance he gets,
right.

1275
01:02:10,000 –> 01:02:13,000
Those are not the kind of agents
we want to be running genuine

1276
01:02:13,000 –> 01:02:14,880
that.
Makes sense.

1277
01:02:15,080 –> 01:02:17,600
OK, last question.
This is from a listener, Chris

1278
01:02:17,600 –> 01:02:19,120
Murphy.
What are the odds I’m on a

1279
01:02:19,120 –> 01:02:22,360
federal watch list for sharing
or posting things critical of

1280
01:02:22,360 –> 01:02:25,640
the US government?
Are most people being monitored

1281
01:02:26,000 –> 01:02:28,200
or is it just the people who
open call things like

1282
01:02:28,200 –> 01:02:30,560
assassination?
If Chris is on that list, Jerry

1283
01:02:30,560 –> 01:02:34,040
and I are on the list too
because I was on Twitter for a

1284
01:02:34,040 –> 01:02:35,360
long time.
I finally got off because I just

1285
01:02:35,360 –> 01:02:38,400
couldn’t can’t stand Elon Musk
and I had a lot of followers and

1286
01:02:38,400 –> 01:02:39,560
I was pretty critical.
The government.

1287
01:02:39,560 –> 01:02:41,920
Now I’m on blue sky and I’m
still very critical.

1288
01:02:41,920 –> 01:02:43,720
And, you know, we have First
Amendment rights where

1289
01:02:43,720 –> 01:02:45,920
Americans, we can say what the
hell we want and we should

1290
01:02:45,920 –> 01:02:47,680
criticize our government when
it’s doing the things that it’s

1291
01:02:47,680 –> 01:02:49,600
doing now.
And especially based on our

1292
01:02:49,600 –> 01:02:51,440
experience and what we learned
from working inside the

1293
01:02:51,440 –> 01:02:54,080
government, we, I see real
dangers, real, you know,

1294
01:02:54,280 –> 01:02:56,680
presidents really helping China
really hurt, helping our

1295
01:02:56,960 –> 01:03:00,040
adversaries and really hurting
our allies.

1296
01:03:00,040 –> 01:03:03,480
And our allies are incredibly
powerful and help us in so many

1297
01:03:03,480 –> 01:03:06,200
ways in wars and intelligence
and all these type of things.

1298
01:03:06,200 –> 01:03:10,480
So, yeah, watch list.
The Secret Service and the FBI,

1299
01:03:10,480 –> 01:03:12,840
their job is to make sure
they’re not threats to the

1300
01:03:12,840 –> 01:03:13,520
government.
So, yeah.

1301
01:03:13,520 –> 01:03:16,760
So if Chris gets on and says
that I want to kill Trump, there

1302
01:03:16,760 –> 01:03:19,160
may be someone who’s going to
watch that and reach out to him

1303
01:03:19,160 –> 01:03:22,080
and say, what’s that about?
Or put him on some sort of list,

1304
01:03:22,080 –> 01:03:24,360
I guess, is what you said.
We’ve seen this in Minneapolis

1305
01:03:24,360 –> 01:03:26,760
to talk about ICE guys.
Either way, I credit he was

1306
01:03:26,760 –> 01:03:28,400
shot.
He was on some list of there.

1307
01:03:28,400 –> 01:03:31,000
So law enforcement
organizations, not intelligence

1308
01:03:31,000 –> 01:03:32,920
organizations, but law
enforcement organizations are

1309
01:03:32,920 –> 01:03:36,520
probably people that they think
are some sort of physical threat

1310
01:03:36,520 –> 01:03:38,920
or threat.
Certainly may, you know, collect

1311
01:03:38,920 –> 01:03:41,240
on Americans and nowadays it’s
pretty easy because we’re all

1312
01:03:41,240 –> 01:03:44,800
online in terms of like if
you’re just critical of the

1313
01:03:44,800 –> 01:03:48,200
government, you know, at least
prior to this administration,

1314
01:03:48,200 –> 01:03:52,760
this time absolutely not.
But Trump, you know, sees, he

1315
01:03:52,760 –> 01:03:54,760
doesn’t see the Chinese and
Russians as enemies.

1316
01:03:54,760 –> 01:03:57,360
He sees Americans that don’t
support him as the enemies.

1317
01:03:57,360 –> 01:03:59,800
And therefore he wants, he’s
using his Department of Justice

1318
01:03:59,800 –> 01:04:03,280
and under that the FBI and
Department of Homeland Security

1319
01:04:03,640 –> 01:04:06,040
to do these things that are
pretty, pretty radical and

1320
01:04:06,040 –> 01:04:09,240
pretty scary.
Yeah, there’s talk and, you

1321
01:04:09,240 –> 01:04:11,200
know, in the next week or so, I
think we’ll see what this is.

1322
01:04:11,200 –> 01:04:14,160
But there’s, you know, Holman is
talking about the guy who took

1323
01:04:14,160 –> 01:04:17,600
$50,000 in cash and a friggin
bag, right?

1324
01:04:17,600 –> 01:04:20,360
And a plastic and a paper bag.
And he won’t tell you what he

1325
01:04:20,360 –> 01:04:22,120
did with it, what he paid taxes
on it.

1326
01:04:22,400 –> 01:04:23,760
This is the guy you’re going to
trust.

1327
01:04:23,760 –> 01:04:28,400
But he said we are collecting
Signal group chats where people

1328
01:04:28,400 –> 01:04:31,800
are organizing to protest ICE.
You know, that’s a First

1329
01:04:31,800 –> 01:04:34,280
Amendment right, not just to
express your opinion, but to

1330
01:04:34,280 –> 01:04:38,000
organize to do that, right?
So I don’t see, unless people

1331
01:04:38,000 –> 01:04:42,080
are organizing to, like, kill
people, organizing to, you know,

1332
01:04:42,280 –> 01:04:45,440
keeping lists of people who
organize to protest government

1333
01:04:45,440 –> 01:04:47,560
actions, that’s something pretty
scary.

1334
01:04:47,560 –> 01:04:50,120
So I think, you know, yeah, John
is exactly right.

1335
01:04:50,160 –> 01:04:51,760
Up until now, it’s never been a
problem.

1336
01:04:51,760 –> 01:04:53,480
But I think things are changing
man.

1337
01:04:53,600 –> 01:04:56,280
Like the FBI, if they wanted to,
if they say Adam, so for

1338
01:04:56,280 –> 01:04:59,160
example, if they wanted to, they
saw something about you they

1339
01:04:59,160 –> 01:05:01,160
thought was threatening.
The FBI can go to a judge and

1340
01:05:01,160 –> 01:05:03,960
get a warrant to like look at
your phone or look get your

1341
01:05:03,960 –> 01:05:06,600
computer stuff.
They have to in a long written,

1342
01:05:06,960 –> 01:05:08,800
you know, justify.
Here’s why.

1343
01:05:08,800 –> 01:05:10,320
Here’s what we think.
Here’s why I think he’s a

1344
01:05:10,320 –> 01:05:11,880
threat.
That judge has to look at that

1345
01:05:11,880 –> 01:05:14,520
and say we agree.
And then the judge oftentimes

1346
01:05:14,720 –> 01:05:18,200
will give them a specific,
they’ll say, OK, you have, you

1347
01:05:18,200 –> 01:05:21,200
know, one week to collect his
things to see if there’s

1348
01:05:21,520 –> 01:05:23,080
something there.
And then you have to turn off

1349
01:05:23,080 –> 01:05:25,520
that collection.
And if you wanted to continue,

1350
01:05:25,520 –> 01:05:28,000
you have to come back to me to
judge it and show that you’ve

1351
01:05:28,000 –> 01:05:30,120
collected information that shows
that Adam is a threat.

1352
01:05:30,120 –> 01:05:33,480
And so there’s very strong, you
know, regulations around what

1353
01:05:33,480 –> 01:05:34,520
you can do and how you can do
it.

1354
01:05:34,600 –> 01:05:36,640
You can’t just say, you know,
I’m in the FBI.

1355
01:05:36,640 –> 01:05:39,080
I think I’m just going to look
at what Adam is writing and what

1356
01:05:39,080 –> 01:05:41,320
he’s doing.
And now this is very structured,

1357
01:05:41,560 –> 01:05:45,960
has to be predicated written
legal fine warrant, you know,

1358
01:05:46,000 –> 01:05:49,120
and then they and then you turn
off that collection as soon as

1359
01:05:49,120 –> 01:05:51,120
you realize it’s there’s nothing
there.

1360
01:05:51,240 –> 01:05:53,880
But those are the.
Rules and the regulations and

1361
01:05:53,880 –> 01:05:57,600
the laws, but if the people
don’t enforce them or just push

1362
01:05:57,600 –> 01:05:59,880
them aside that it doesn’t
fucking matter anymore right

1363
01:05:59,880 –> 01:06:01,160
that’s.
True, that’s true.

1364
01:06:01,320 –> 01:06:03,960
What a great job that would be
if you were in the FBI.

1365
01:06:03,960 –> 01:06:06,480
You just got assigned to
listening to my podcasts.

1366
01:06:07,600 –> 01:06:09,560
I know exactly.
Good day of work.

1367
01:06:11,360 –> 01:06:14,240
So Don, Jerry, thank you both so
much for doing the pod.

1368
01:06:14,240 –> 01:06:15,800
I really appreciate it.
This was great.

1369
01:06:16,120 –> 01:06:19,480
Our pleasure.
Where can people listen to your

1370
01:06:19,480 –> 01:06:21,680
podcast and check out your other
work?

1371
01:06:21,960 –> 01:06:25,640
So our podcast on conspiracy
theories, not as good as yours,

1372
01:06:25,640 –> 01:06:27,440
but it’s called Mission
Implausible.

1373
01:06:27,760 –> 01:06:31,320
It’s with Jerry and I and Adam
Davidson, who is a writer for

1374
01:06:31,320 –> 01:06:34,400
The New Yorker and NPR and a
number of other places do that.

1375
01:06:34,720 –> 01:06:38,640
I put stuff on Blue Sky since I
left Twitter and I write

1376
01:06:38,640 –> 01:06:42,000
sometimes for different, you
know, New York Times and Bush

1377
01:06:42,000 –> 01:06:44,720
Post and places like that,
mostly on Russia things, but

1378
01:06:44,720 –> 01:06:47,000
that’s and then Jerry and I are
both working for this company

1379
01:06:47,000 –> 01:06:50,880
Spycraft in the effort to make
good espionage TV and movies.

1380
01:06:51,040 –> 01:06:52,800
Nice Jerry.
Anything you want to.

1381
01:06:53,040 –> 01:06:54,320
Add No, I think John said it
well.

1382
01:06:54,320 –> 01:06:55,920
Jared stays away from social
media.

1383
01:06:55,920 –> 01:06:58,320
He’s wise.
That’s very smart.

1384
01:06:59,440 –> 01:07:03,920
Well, again, thank you both.
I appreciate it and thank you to

1385
01:07:03,960 –> 01:07:05,720
everyone who listened to the
pod.

1386
01:07:05,760 –> 01:07:09,120
We appreciate you also and
goodbye everybody.

1387
01:07:09,240 –> 01:07:09,600
We.
Love it.

1388
01:07:09,960 –> 01:07:11,400
Yeah.
And Adam, we’re going to keep

1389
01:07:11,520 –> 01:07:12,960
your secret that you’re our
agent.

1390
01:07:12,960 –> 01:07:14,080
You know, we’re not going to let
the audience.

1391
01:07:14,240 –> 01:07:15,760
Hopefully the audience isn’t
picking this up.

1392
01:07:15,760 –> 01:07:17,520
But yeah, man, yeah.
We’re not recording anymore.

1393
01:07:17,520 –> 01:07:18,040
It’s fine.