Adam talks to author Joseph Cibelli about his new book that lays out a highly compelling case for his own father being the culprit behind one of history’s most infamous unsolved crimes.
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EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
Intro
[00:00:00] Hey everybody. Welcome to Conspiracy the Show. I’m your host, Adam Tod Brown, joining me as co-host this week. Ooh, my favorite co-host of all, no co-host, but in a few minutes I will be talking to a fantastic guest, Joseph Cibelli, author of the new book, The Tylenol Murders, A Father’s Confession to His Son.
If you’re unfamiliar, the Tylenol murders are a series of crimes that happened in the Chicago area in 1982. Seven people were killed after taking Tylenol that was laced with potassium cyanide. The deaths started on September 29th, 1982.
By early October, investigators had identified the over the counter pain reliever that all of the victims had taken as the culprit behind the poisonings. It’s one of the most notorious unsolved crimes in history, and people talk [00:01:00] about that part all the time. But what gets mentioned less is that it’s also one of the most remarkable comebacks from a PR disaster in the history of corporate America. After the deaths, a massive recall of Tylenol started. More than 31 million bottles of Tylenol were pulled off shelves nationwide. At home, people were dumping their bottles of Tylenol in the toilet. Exactly what you want to not do with something that might be tainted with potassium cyanide.
But I digress.
Before this happened, Tylenol held 35% of the over the counter pain reliever market and within weeks that fell to 8%.
But in response to that, [00:02:00] Tylenol did a very radical thing for corporate America. They actually took accountability for the failings in their product that allowed this crime to happen.
They ended up working closely with the FDA to implement a bunch of new safety precautions that went a long way to toward reestablishing public trust, and those safety precautions remain the industry standard today. Now more than 40 years later, not even the full weight and fury of the Make America Healthy Again, movement can take down Tylenol.[00:03:00]
As you’ll hear in today’s interview, the police had some really compelling leads in this case over the years, but none that ever panned out and the case remains unsolved as the title of the book implies. Our guest today, author Joseph Cibelli, believes his father, a man named Daniel Drozd, was in fact the Chicago Tylenol murderer and people I 100% believe him.
I think if you read his book, you will too. In the show notes we link to where you can buy it.
I was especially excited to do this episode. This is a story that holds a lot of memories for me. I grew up in Illinois and I was six years old when the Tylenol murders happened, so this is probably the first really big high profile crime I remember from childhood.
What I remember the most is the panic and the rush by my parents and literally every other adult [00:04:00] in my orbit to dispose of any Tylenol in the house immediately. Way later in life, I appeared on an episode of History’s Greatest Mysteries about the Chicago Tylenol murders. Me and Morpheus on the same show, who could have seen it happening.
What did not come up at all on that episode of television I filmed was anything that we’re gonna talk about today. Daniel Drozd is a brand new entry on the Chicago Tylenol murder suspect list, and again, I think our guest today makes a highly convincing case that this is the guy who did it. So without further ado, let’s get to our [00:05:00] [00:06:00] interview.
Interview
Adam Tod Brown: [00:00:00] Hey everyone. I am back as promised with Joseph Cibelli. Author of the Tylenol Murders, A Father’s Confession To His Son. Joseph, thank you so much for the pod
Joseph Cibelli: Thank you.
Adam Tod Brown: it. How’s it going?
Joseph Cibelli: Good. How about you?
Adam Tod Brown: I’m all right.
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah.
Adam Tod Brown: I, uh, was telling you right before we started recording, I just finished the book this morning. This is, this is a fascinating read. This book should be a film.
It would.
Joseph Cibelli: agreed.
Adam Tod Brown: I think it would legitimately be a really, really interesting movie because
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah, and it’s, it’s interesting because people who’ve read the book have said that, and I said, well, you know, I’ve already started to think about that. Um, I reached out to Satan himself to see if he would play my dad, and he turned it down. He said, no, he didn’t wanna be cast like that. So we’ll get into him and people will learn all about him.
Adam Tod Brown: yeah, your dad is, was a. [00:01:00] Character to
Joseph Cibelli: Oh yeah.
Adam Tod Brown: put it mildly. Holy shit. The Tylenol murders, which the book obviously centers around are, it’s one of the first big news stories I remember because I was six when it happened. So I just remember the dumping out of the Tylenol and kind of the panic around it, but I wasn’t really old enough to have processed it that much.
1982 though was a vastly different time in terms of how news worked, which comes up in the book. Take the listeners back to 1982 America for a bit. What was it like?
Joseph Cibelli: 1982 America. Yeah, it was definitely a different world. We did not have, um, a 24 7 news cycle. We did not have social media and we did not have a newsfeed constantly in our face. Um, I, I think I described it in the book as saying that news was a conscious choice. [00:02:00] News was something, you know, if you wanted to watch the news, you sat down at, you know, five or seven or nine or 11 and watched the news.
You might hear something coming in on the radio. But that, that was it. We did not have the news like we did now. And, you know, word traveled. Differently then it was more on the streets. So when this was happening, I mean, I had an idea what was going on because it was literally, if you were to look at a map where our house was at and where these bottles were placed, you can see, I mean, it was happening all around us, but we were strangely insulated from the news.
It was a choice back then.
Adam Tod Brown: yeah, yeah. One of the things, I actually just recently found out how recent of a development this is, and I bring it up ’cause it comes up in your book. 9 1 1 wasn’t even everywhere in the country by this point. I think it wasn’t until kind of deep into the eighties that more than 50% [00:03:00] of the country.
Had
Joseph Cibelli: I don’t even know in Lyons where we grew up when they got 9 1 1, but yeah, at the time of the book, when I had to call the police on him for other things, it was basically you had to, you had to know that number and, you know, punch the numbers in. And I think I said in the book, you know, God help you if you have an emergency on a rotary phone because it just, it wasn’t easy.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. So. The book opens in a really interesting place with your father Daniel Drost confessing to have committed the Tylenol murders. So not in those exact words, but.
Joseph Cibelli: No, my father and I had, I addressed this in the book as well. Like my father, he spoke in riddles, he spoke in rhymes, he spoke in code. So even on his deathbed he was, he brought this to the surface and more than once, and he used the term cyanide pills. I did it cyanide pills. Then he also referred to the three [00:04:00] Mary’s, and if anybody who’s researched this knows there were three of the victims were named Mary, and he says, you know, the three Mary’s should still be here.
One of them was so young and it was just, it’s profound actually because my mom’s name is Mary as well, but he was talking, you know, the three Mary should be here. One of them was so young and it was like, when, when he said this, I just, I, I went. Oh yeah, I knew he did this. I, I had an inkling about it in 1982, and I’ve carried that my whole life.
And then here, he just gave me this on his death bed. Basically. Just drop this in my lap.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. Reading the book even before you get into talking about kind of the, I guess, evidence that he would’ve been the one who did this. Just hearing you describe this man, I was like, yeah, he probably did it.
Joseph Cibelli: Oh yeah. And you know, in the book, so when I started this, I, I honestly, when he said this, I mean, it was immediate. The light went off in my [00:05:00] head. I remembered back to things that I remembered from 1982. And so I started filling in the blanks and I wasn’t even, I didn’t even think I was gonna write a book first.
I honestly thought I would find some exculpatory evidence that would state. Very clearly he did not do this. He was out of town or, you know, fill in the blank. There would be a reason why he didn’t do this. And every time when I, I would go down those paths, I found, you know, five more things that pointed to this crime.
And, you know, I, I really didn’t start out to write a book, but as I was. Figuring this out. I was like, this truth has to be told. So I need to put this, you know, I’m, I’m, I have a PhD in forensic psychology, and I’m also, um, going into my last year of law school. So I understand that things have to be in writing.
You know, I needed to put this in writing as opposed to coming out and being all, you know, crazy. Um, but yeah, I, I didn’t even intend for this to be a book. I.
Adam Tod Brown: You talk a little bit about the [00:06:00] motive here, because I think that with the Tylenol murders has probably always been a question everyone has had. What the hell could have been the motive here? And you present a pretty interesting one.
Joseph Cibelli: yeah. I presented a forensic analysis of him and um, when he was young, he was, I’ve never been able to nail down his exact age, but it falls somewhere between four and seven. He was at his grandmother’s house and he was, you know, mischievous child for sure, digging through some, a cabinet in the bathroom and he found some sort of a syrup and it had, um, sulfa in it, and he drank it.
It was cherry flavored, so he drank it and. His story to me was that he died that day. He actually spent time, two weeks or so in the hospital recovering from this, and he told me, he’s like, I died that day. I [00:07:00] crossed over and I came back and he had told me, he said he was never the same again after that.
So with the Tylenol, right before the murders happened, Tylenol was on a, or. McNeil Pharmaceuticals, Johnson and Johnson, they were on a big kick putting out a new Children’s co Tylenol, so it was flavored tablets, and at that time. None of the tops were sealed. There was no, you know, we didn’t have like the four seals to break through to get into anything.
It was literally just unscrew it and take it. And I, my brother had gotten into some actually liquid children’s Tylenol, and so I think my father just in his psychotic. We decided, you know what, I’m gonna do something about this myself. And you know, he got this going. And I think in his mind, I can honestly tell you that, you know, he thought, well, you know, seven people or so died.
But think of [00:08:00] how many people didn’t die. That is how his mind works and it’s. It’s horrible to say something like that, but you gotta, you have to get inside of those minds to understand what’s going on in there. And that was his mindset. And I think ultimately he felt doing this, he could get away with it, which he did.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. Yeah, and I could see that. In an unwell mind being a decent justification. Well, yeah. You know, six or seven people are gonna die, but think of all the people that’ll be saved because of all the changes
Joseph Cibelli: if they had these caps on when he was young, he wouldn’t have actually died. You know, he wouldn’t have passed on and then been brought back. He, he had a vengeance. My father was very vengeful and he had a vengeance, he had a vendetta and he took it out and, yeah.
Adam Tod Brown: He also, it seems crafted a few different personas, including one called Evil Dan, who was a real bastard.
Joseph Cibelli: Evil. Dan was a bastard. Yes. And my [00:09:00] father had referred to himself as evil Dan. He would, I mean, you know, he would do something like, say you were walking into the room and he would trip you. Because that was, he was like that, you know, I mean, but that, that’s, you know, people do that. But he would trip you and he’d be like, oh, that wasn’t me.
That was evil, Dan. And he would refer to himself, you know, in this other character. And through the book I developed some other Dan characters. There was Hyper Dan, there was Deacon Dan, there was a lot of them. But he actually himself referred to himself as evil Dan.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah, that is always a bad sign, and he lives up to the name in this book. I won’t. Get into all the, all the details on the pod, but it’s a pretty harrowing read.
Joseph Cibelli: when I was starting to talk before about how, I didn’t wanna write a, a book about this, but, um, yeah, he, I don’t know how to explain him. He, he was a [00:10:00] character. He definitely, he was, he was mean, and he was horrible. And the, the, the pictures that I painted in the book that are talking about the abuse that we suffered in our home, it was rampant.
And 1982 was the worst of all of the years. And I, I painted a picture in the book of the abuse that we suffered and I didn’t. Put that out there to be, um, per se, a litany of woes for me or for my family. But I had to put background in there so people could see the mindset of this man. And, you know, for every.
Act in that book that he perpetrated on us, the violence, there’s at least three or four more that are not covered in the book. I, I honestly, I know it’s overwhelming, I think when people read this because they, they just didn’t have any idea and they don’t understand it. But I tell people, I said, you know, for everything you’re reading there, there was so much more.
I tried to keep it on the, the lower end. ’cause I didn’t want the book to be about me and the abuse I [00:11:00] suffered. I wanted it to be about speaking this truth.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah, and it, I mean, it does a great job of painting him as someone who would absolutely commit a crime like this. I think one of just, of all the examples of evil Dan in this, I think the one that, it’s definitely not the most harrowing, but the thing that weirded me out the most was. The thing where he would take you to the woods to just sort of track strangers.
Joseph Cibelli: Oh yeah, that was, um, that, that time when I wrote about that in the book, I. He had taken me on excursions like that previously, but not to this extent. The extent in the book, I mean, he had packed up, you know, I call it the Army Green Cross body bag, and he had packed up this blanket in there that he named, and I don’t know why, but he named the blanket itchy brother.
Adam Tod Brown: That’s so creepy.
Joseph Cibelli: I know it’s bizarre. He took itchy brother in the blanket and then he had camouflaged [00:12:00] netting. He put over us and that was the first time. That’s why I referenced this particular time in the book because it seems like in that era, his mindset was completely changing. He had me out there and we watched, we stalked a couple going into the woods and we were kind of behind a tree that had fallen and he laid out itchy brother, and we were on the ground and we could just barely see up over this log.
And then he covered us with this camouflage netting. And I’m sitting there, I’m like. Why does he have camouflage netting? When did he even get this? Because like I said, this was not the first time we stalked people, but this was the first time. And mind you, I was 11 at the time. Um, this, this was the first time though with the camouflage netting.
So that was new. That was something new to his repertoire. It was the camouflage netting. And we sat there perfectly still. These people had had no idea that we were behind them. My father taught. Me, he taught my brother, he taught us all how to [00:13:00] walk through the woods and not make a sound. How to constantly be aware of what is in front of you, what’s to your left, what’s to your right, what is above you, what is behind you at all times, and we very stealthily.
Sat and waited behind this log. So long story short, the people come walking past and I’m looking at him and he’s watching them like a predator, and I’m like, they kind of walked past the log and he, he, he didn’t do anything. And I was like, well, you know what? If he’s gonna attack him, he missed his chance.
That second, my father jumped up so fast with that camouflage netting on him, jumped over the log in one jump. Was right up behind these people. They had no idea he was even there. And he made this noise like a boar, it sounded like a boar, like a wild boar with the netting on him, right behind these people.
And they turned around and I’m telling you like there was a blood curdling scream. It was a man and a woman, and they ran to the [00:14:00] parking lot and my father actually chased them to the, where the trail starts. He didn’t go into the parking lot. And I’m watching this from behind the log and I’m going. What is going on?
Like, what is this about? I don’t even understand what I’m seeing right now. They get in the car, I hear the wheels, you know, squealing and just calm, calm, calm, calm. My father comes walking back, picks the netting off, shakes out the blanket, folds it up, puts it back in the bag, and just extremely calm. He looks me right in the eye and he says, that is how you stalk your prey. I know I, I mean I got goosebumps just telling it now. ’cause my mind went to those people, like these poor people. And I had said in the book, I wish they were learning the lessons that I had was learning from him because maybe they wouldn’t have been in this predicament. And luckily nothing happened and they pulled out of there and I kept thinking like.
We’re gonna get in the car and leave here, and the police are gonna be there. But you know, the, the military’s gonna be there looking for him. Somebody’s gonna be there with, you know, [00:15:00] machine guns holding us at hot, you know, gunpoint. Nope, nope. He was so calm. Like nothing. Just like that is how you stalk your prey.
Adam Tod Brown: I bet those people told that story to every new
Joseph Cibelli: I would love to
Adam Tod Brown: of their lives.
Joseph Cibelli: like from, if they read this or if they’re hearing this, be like, you know what, that was me. Because they’re, they’re probably still out there somewhere.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah, and that’s actually one of the reasons I say this book should be a movie because. It seems like a lot of those things your dad handed down to you about, you know, watch everything be observant, is kind of what you use to figure out how much of a shithead he was.
Joseph Cibelli: Absolutely. I, I used the line at least a couple times in the book, like I do not think he was expecting me to use his. Training in psychopathy against him. You know, I, he was teaching, he was teaching us this for a reason, you know, and I don’t know why, but he was teaching us this for a reason. And I, I did an [00:16:00] interview before the book was out, and the journalist, he came to my house and he had asked me, he’s like, can my girlfriend come with, she’s a psychiatrist, you know, and you know, we were talking about this.
We got to this part and his, his girlfriend, she just looked at me and she said, God, it’s just obvious your father loved you so much. And I was like, okay, get out of my house. I security, can you please escort this woman outta here? But I, I had to really think that and I was like. I’ve heard that several times since then, and I’m like, I guess in his own twisted way, he did, he did love us.
He was teaching us, but you know, it was like a, a baptism of through fire though. It was definitely,
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. It
Joseph Cibelli: an experience growing up with him.
Adam Tod Brown: yeah, it, to me, I mean, I wasn’t there obviously, but just reading it, it comes off almost like he’s showing off like it’s. Well, hey, you’re not gonna believe what I know. Let me, let me teach you.
Joseph Cibelli: Right. And do you know, I mean, I’ve described my father, ’cause people ask, you know, do you think other people could have involved, [00:17:00] been involved with him? And I said, I don’t, I don’t think so. My father was more like the lone wolf type. And I do think, like, I talk about it in the book where sometimes I felt like I was his only friend.
You know, he would go into his Hyper Dan mode and be like, let’s go here, let’s go do this, let’s go do that. And then, you know, an hour later he was, you know, off the deep end again. And I feel like. You know, he, he was teaching his kids this stuff because he was training us for something and we were like his friends.
I mean, we were honestly, like, I, I, I, I still, I still struggle to figure that out.
Adam Tod Brown: Seems like he kind of used you and the family as cover to do what he did.
Joseph Cibelli: Absolutely. I go into great detail about when he placed the bottles in Elk Grove Village, Arlington Heights, and then there were some found at Schaumburg Mall of him taking us hiking and leaving us in the woods and. I mean, I went into great detail [00:18:00] about this, about the time routes exactly, and you can see where we were at in the woods.
And it’s, all of these points are literally right around this, these woods. And I mean, he, he went out there with this great detail of doing. I, it’s, it’s still, I mean, I’m still wrapping my brain around it all. I mean, I’ve had some time to process all this, but I still am wrapping my brain around it.
Adam Tod Brown: The timelines you lay out in the book really work and. I mean, if you’re coming at it from the true crime, I don’t believe in coincidences kind of
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah.
Adam Tod Brown: There’s a lot there. It you make a compelling case.
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah, and I think what what’s interesting, which I didn’t even get into as much in the book, was that in about 1986, I started writing things in a journal. I started writing these excursions to the woods. I started writing about these things and other things that I saw him do, and other events and other things that had happened.
And I kept [00:19:00] this journal hidden very well, and it disappeared in about 1988 and I think. He, he knew that I was figuring things out. I mean, he was, in the book I talk about, you know, he knew that I was observant and I think, you know, he had this feeling like I’m keeping track of stuff. And that journal went missing.
And then in 2019, um, he reached out. I was living in California and had no contact with him, and he reached out to my husband, and this was in 2019. And he said, I’ve got a Journal of Joey’s. I can’t wait to come show it to you. I’ll see you soon. Yeah. And then right after that, another one he had said, um, I hope you guys have a good new year.
It’s gonna be the last for one of you. And this was after, I mean, he was talking about this journal, which I had written, and in 1986 that disappeared in 88, I think at that point he thought I was gonna put this together.
Adam Tod Brown: Yikes. Yeah, clearly that’s, yeah, [00:20:00] that’s intense. Yeah. Your, your dad said some crazy shit to you, including at. At one point, I should have killed you when I had the chance.
Joseph Cibelli: Yes. And that was in November, right after the murders. And I had, I mean, I’ve got it down almost to the precise date because I know what movie we were going to see. It was creep show. And he got pissed because I didn’t want him to go with me. I had nothing to do with my father after that day at Bussy Woods.
Like I did not wanna be alone with him because when we got home from Bussy Woods. That was the first time we got up the steps. He’s carrying my brother and he looks me right in the eye and he says, if you talk about what went down today, ever, I will kill you. I’ll kill your mother, and I will kill your brother and sister.
So that was the first time he threatened my life, and it was during this era and then in November that year, I mean, he slammed me against the wall and he said, I should have killed you when I had the [00:21:00] chance.
Adam Tod Brown: ish.
Joseph Cibelli: was what, uh, a month and a half after the murders.
Adam Tod Brown: Evil Dan. Ladies and gentlemen.
Joseph Cibelli: Abel, Dan. That’s him.
Adam Tod Brown: Um, one of the central not really figures in this, I guess, uh, probably isn’t the right way to put it, is the layer. Talk about
Joseph Cibelli: The lair. Oh, the lair. That thing is ter. That thing was terrifying. So when we moved into the house in 1976, it was just like an open part of the basement. I, there’s a furnace over there, there’s a hot water heater there. You know, there’s a couple windows. And in 82 he started, it all just started with a door.
He was putting a doorframe up and a door. And it just seemed odd to me. And in the book I talk about it. ’cause I just asked him, I was like, what’s the door for? You know? And we go on from there. Next thing you know. He’s putting a deadbolt on that lock, and this is all in 1982, right before the murders happened.
And it [00:22:00] just progressively got worse and worse and worse. And so that layer was kept under lock and key. So I was using his, uh, stalking techniques and I was watching him to figure out what key it was to open that. So whenever I had a chance, and I described two times in the book where he had. He was out and his keys were in the house, and I got into that layer and I saw some crazy shit.
I mean, I saw, I mean, he had stacks and I mean stacks of papers, and they looked like back then they looked like a church bulletin. And those were the poor man’s James Bond.
Adam Tod Brown: I actually had a question in here about the Poor Man’s James Bond because there’s three books that come up a lot. The Anarchist Cookbook, which I think everyone knows about How to Kill, which that’s pretty self-explanatory from the title. Talk about the Poor Man’s James Bond a little bit. I had never heard of this.
Joseph Cibelli: Okay, so at the time, you know, this wasn’t something you would go to the bookstore and get, you had to [00:23:00] send away like mail order, you know, they had to. Mail it to you. And so, uh, from what it appears, from what I saw, they would mail it and it was like, church bulletins is what it looked like. They were little.
You would open it up and there would be typing on like every corner there was writing of this thing. It was chaotic looking. And over time, I mean these were put out for years and years and years, so. When I was investigating this book, I’m like, I gotta figure out what was in this poor Man’s James Bond because I saw, I mean, he had stacks of these things in his layer.
So I, I found some copies online and I found a PDF of it online and you can view it and see the crazy stuff in there. But you know, I was like, you know what? I need to have it in my hand. So I had to order it. I had to order it from a military supply store in like Oregon somewhere. So I always say, I’m like, I’m sure I’m on the FBI’s list now.
They’re gonna come busting through the door any minute now I’m waiting. But I did get copies of it. So what they’ve done over time is taken what used to be these flyers [00:24:00] and compiled them into three volumes of books. So I got them and I’m going through them and as I’m going through them. Oddly enough, reading this, I’m like, oh, this makes sense now in the poor man’s James Bond, and I keep beating this drum.
This whole plan is laid out in the poor man’s James Bond talking about taking. Capsules, specifically capsules and filling ’em with cyanide. It is in the Poor Man’s James Bond. He had this in his layer. It’s like, you know, one plus one equals two. It does not equal three. One plus one will always equal two.
Those were in there and it is laid out and it is like there’s some. Dark stuff in there. I mean, I, I would be reading these Poor Man James Bond and I’d have to just put it down and walk away. It was it there, it’s that dark. It was, I equated it in the book to the dark web of the 1980s.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. that’s.
Joseph Cibelli: seventies even.
And it was, I [00:25:00] mean it is dark. Like I have those books stored away somewhere under lock and Key ’cause I don’t want anybody to see them. ’cause it is, they are dark. Just like my father, I guess. You know, the Apple doesn’t fall far from the tree. But you know, the first book I saw was the Anarchist Cookbook.
So I’m 10 at this point. You know, I’m still 10. I might even benign at that point and I see it and I’m like, why does he have a cookbook in here? So pop it open. I see diagrams for bombs.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: Illicit drugs, how to make illicit drugs and poisons, and I’m like, shut that book and just walk away. You know? I put in the book that I asked my mom, you know, why does dad have a.
Cookbook in his workshop and she basically said, you know, he’s always collecting strange things. You know how he is. And I’m like, yeah, I do know how he is, unfortunately. And then the How to Kill Manual, that one, like you said, is pretty self-explanatory. That was in there, and originally it was in another spot in the house when I saw it the first time, and I just saw it and it just says How to kill.
And I’m like, okay, whatever. Put it back in the cabinet. And then I found it in his [00:26:00] workshop and then. You know, in 20 24, 20 25 researching this, I find, find out what’s in that, that book. And it’s, it’s also terrifying.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: It’s,
Adam Tod Brown: Speaking of things in the layer. There’s a kind of running plot line about the pink cup
Joseph Cibelli: mm-hmm.
Adam Tod Brown: the powder in the pink
Joseph Cibelli: Yep.
Adam Tod Brown: That was probably the cyanide in the pink cup. Right? And you almost put your finger in it.
Joseph Cibelli: know. He had, I mean, he was, as you know, you can guess, he’s probably, he’s, he’s nuts. So he came home from work one day and I really broke this down in the book. And he had two cups. One was white, it was whiteish and one was pink. And he was wearing his red lion’s fire department jacket gets in the kitchen and I’m there with my brother and he’s like, oh, I got something to show you guys.
Wait till you see this. He pulls the cups out of his pockets. There’s the white cup. And the pink cup. He holds the white cup and almost like. [00:27:00] So we wouldn’t see him like he was doing a magic trick pops the pink cup in his pocket and I was like, I don’t know what’s in that cup, but I wanna find out. So he opens up the white cup and he brought home, I mean these cups that I describe in the book, they hold two ounces and it was full and it was full of mercury, the white cup.
Liquid
Adam Tod Brown: Yikes.
Joseph Cibelli: and he pours it out on the floor and he’s like, you guys can play with it. Look how cool this is. And it kind of, oh yeah, it separates and it comes back together. And it’s metal. It looks like metal, but it, it rolls around like, like water. It’s, it’s the craziest thing. And he’s like, oh yeah, you can touch it.
You can pick it up. It’s safe. I mean, I sensed like that was dangerous. My mind was focused on the pink cup, like what is in the pink cup? Like I was obsessed with finding out what was in the pink cup and I, you know, I just asked him one day. I went down there, I was like, I’m gonna be brave. I’m gonna ask him.
I didn’t wanna get him riled, ’cause that was easy to do. But I kind of came down the stairs. He was in the layer, and I’m like, okay, what’s in the pink cup? [00:28:00] He just looks at me and like I said in the book, it’s like, I think he was surprised I had the balls to ask him, but he just looks at me and he’s like, you don’t need to know.
And I’m like, uh, no. What’s in the pink cup? And he gets this look on his face and he’s thinking, I mean this is like very dramatic. He’s thinking, looking, gets down, you know, kind of reaches down, bends down towards me. And he’s like, you know what’s in the pink cup? It’s kryptonite. Do not ever touch that pink cup ever.
So as a kid I’m like, but I thought Kryptonite will only kill Superman. And he said, no, most people don’t know this, but kryptonite will kill anyone.
Adam Tod Brown: Hmm.
Joseph Cibelli: So after that I was like obsessed with figuring out what was in that cup. And then, you know, when I had seen it the first time I was in the lair. The cup was full.
You could see through these cups, you could see there’s stuff in there, and it was full probably about three quarters of the way up. And when I finally had the, the nerve to [00:29:00] get in there and open that cup, it was almost gone. I mean, there was just a very small layer of it. That was, you know, that’s when I was gonna put my finger in it.
And then I had a flashback to something he taught me. So, you know, that’s in the book. You know, he always taught us these things, but I, I, I am 1000% sure that that was the cyanide. And I also documented another story in the book where he did bring cyanide home. He used it to kill a tree in our neighbor’s yard.
And I go into a lot of detail about that because I’m telling you, as a child, that tree was, it was a traumatic scene the way he just, he just went at this tree and it, you, it, you, you couldn’t even be able to imagine it if you didn’t see it. It was, I, I can’t even describe the way he went at this tree.
Like he was determined he was gonna kill that tree. And long story short, he ended up pounding. Copper nails that were coated in cyanide into the tree,
Adam Tod Brown: And it
Joseph Cibelli: that tree [00:30:00] died.
Adam Tod Brown: just because part of it was on your property, right?
Joseph Cibelli: and it really wasn’t even that it, I don’t know what it was. It was actually on the neighbor’s property and you know, he had just went nuts at these people and they put up a fence. They put up like a six foot privacy fence, like bam. One day that fence was up and that tree kind of stayed in between our fences and it was always dropping leaves and mulberries in our yard and he was just, oh my God.
He’d lost his mind over that tree. He would take the mulberries that fell off the tree. We had a tree house in the yard. He’d go up there and throw ’em at the woman that lived behind it, I mean, throwing them at her. So she’s in the yard getting pummeled with her own mulberries, and then he’d be screaming at her.
And I, I just, I was like, I gotta go in the house. I can’t take this. This is like, I’m becoming unhinged watching him, you know?
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. That’s wild.
Joseph Cibelli: But yeah, that, that tree, it was very symbolic for me. And he. Very specifically, I asked him about the copper nails and I was like, so I get the copper nails, but what was the powder?
’cause he was [00:31:00] dipping the nails into this powder and he said that was cyanide. Potassium cyanide. He was very specific, and this was in 1980. And I asked him, I was like, well, where did you get that? And he told me, generous motors, which is General Motors, which is where he worked. His full-time job was at a division called Electromotive.
And he did electroplating of engine parts. And if you look up chemicals used in electroplating, potassium cyanide is the top of the list.
Adam Tod Brown: So yeah, you can
Joseph Cibelli: again, one and one equals two.
Adam Tod Brown: yeah, yeah. Add that to the list of. Things that make it seem like he probably did
Joseph Cibelli: Absolutely. Yes. I mean, and there’s, there’s not anybody I think, who actually knows him who could say like, no, he couldn’t have done this. That wasn’t his character. I mean, everybody’s like, oh, wow. I knew he did something in his life. I just had no idea it was this extreme.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. Uh. Let’s talk about a kind of a mysterious moment in the book since writing it, have you looked any further [00:32:00] into who called you out of the blue to tell you that you were on the right track and that your dad did actually do this,
Joseph Cibelli: I am gonna give a, a theory on
Adam Tod Brown: somehow hung up and disconnected their number?
Within like a minute?
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah. I think it was a burner phone to be completely honest. So when I started writing this book. I had my own timeline that I was working from, and what I needed to do was find people who either worked with my dad or knew the family or anything that I could reach out to people and I didn’t tell them what I was researching.
I never, I never said the word Tylenol murders. I never said a peep. All I would tell people was like. I’m just looking for some background information about my dad. That’s all I would tell them. And so, um, you know, I reached out to people and left my phone number. I left my email. So there is a, there’s a police officer back in town where we grew up, who was close with my dad. I could not really necessarily find him to reach out to him. [00:33:00] So I reached out to him through somebody else. I said, when you talk to so-and-so, will you give him my number, my email, my address? I don’t care how they get in touch with me. So this person passed on the information to this police officer who was a former police officer and.
Never heard a peep, but the person who gave him the information to call me had said, oh, I gave it to him. He’s gonna call you, blah, blah, blah. Never heard from him. And then as I’m putting all this together and I’m, I’m actually like taking my handwritten notes and typing and putting this book together. My, my cell phone rings and it’s a seven oh seven area code, which was like, um, somewhere in Ohio, Springfield, Ohio.
I pick it up, I’m thinking, you know, it’s a telemarketer or something. I’m like, hello? Nothing. And then this voice comes on and it was scrambled. It was like it was put through a scrambler. It kind of sounded like high pitchy scrambly, and the voice said, you’re on the right track. Your dad did it. [00:34:00] Hang up the whole call.
It was 14 seconds. ’cause I, I looked at it on the phone. I even took screenshots of how many times I called this number back. And every time I would call, I got the, the, the voice that said, you know, the number you reached has been disconnected. Please check the number and try to call again. And I wrote all that in the book.
I called that thing back at least 20 times. So then I started doing research to see, okay, who does this number belong to? I’m, I’m a pretty good researcher and I found out the last like registered person had that phone number in like 2020. So at that point I’m like, this was a burner number. You can get those on an app and the second you use it, you can delete it.
You know? So I’m fairly certain that this was. Possibly that exact officer. That’s who I’m thinking it is. But somebody was trying to tell me something about this, wanting me to know like I’m on the right track. But here’s the part, and I didn’t go into this in the book, but I’ll say it right here. When they said that to me, I mean, I wrote down exactly what they said in the book.
You’re on [00:35:00] the right track. Your dad did it. They did not say what it was
Adam Tod Brown: Oh yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: like, what? What? Do they know about this? Or is this something else I need to be looking at? Because as I uncovered this, I uncovered more things. There’s more, there’s more that this man was involved with and that’ll come out. You know, I’m working on that now, but I was like, okay.
He did what? He did it, what is it? Is it Tylenol murders? Is it something else? What is it? So I haven’t gotten, I haven’t gotten a call back yet, so I’m waiting. I haven’t gotten a call back yet. Lemme tell you, every time I have a number on my phone that comes up, you know, unavailable or whatever, I’m on it.
I’m like, yes, you know, and no never gotten anything else from that. So that’s who I think it was. I think it was an officer who used to work with him who was behind the scenes like wanting me to know, but. Not wanting to come out and say it.
Adam Tod Brown: I wonder, how do you think he would’ve known your dad? Did it? [00:36:00] Do you think your dad would’ve told him?
Joseph Cibelli: I think, I don’t think my dad would’ve told anybody. No. I think there may have been a slip somewhere. Another guy that worked with my dad. I interviewed him and he was very objective. I mean he, I had a great interview with him and he told me at the end, he said, first of all, you need to get your father’s military records.
And then he said, you also have to know your father had a deep, and that was the word, deep knowledge of chemicals and chemistry. My hair stood up ’cause I did not tell him that I was looking at the Tylenol murders. I think, you know, word travels fast, so I think if this, that mystery phone call was from that officer, I 100% believe that he knew what I was looking at.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: I just wish he would’ve clarified it because, you know, I’m in, I’m in law school. I need to have every detail. You can’t just say, I think he did it. You need to tell me what it is so that I can prove this. You know [00:37:00] what I mean? It’s like you, you, you got one more word to say, so call me back if you’re listening.
Adam Tod Brown: What are your thoughts on James Lewis, who
Joseph Cibelli: Lewis.
Adam Tod Brown: history has kind of always painted as the biggest suspect in this, but I think there’s an issue where he’s like, not even close to Chicago when
Joseph Cibelli: No, he was in New York. So here’s James Lewis. Okay. This guy, well, I mean it wasn’t really smart what he did, but he wrote an extortion letter to Johnson and Johnson stating, if you want the killings to end, you’ll wire a million dollars to this bank account. And it was a bank account in Chicago, and that bank account is his wife’s former boss.
So he was just, he was setting this up to make it look like the former boss did it. Well, he got arrested, he was prosecuted for extortion and went to jail. And so many people just kind of drew the line right there and they’re like, no, he had to have done it. You know, [00:38:00] we got him for extortion, so what if we didn’t get him for seven murders?
Close enough, you know, but no, it’s not close enough.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. And the part where he was in New York when it happened,
Joseph Cibelli: he was in New York when it happened and you know, literally days before these people. Unfortunately died. I was with my father in these locations that I discuss in the book. I mean, we were right there. We were right there. So again, one in one equals two.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah, absolutely.
Joseph Cibelli: is, you know what, a thousand, 1200 miles away, whatever. It’s from Chicago to New York, and I’m right there practically in a parking lot. So I, I think my father was definitely, logistically, he was right there.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. Yeah. I am team. Your father, at least in terms of him having committed this crime. Other,
Joseph Cibelli: Oh good. Good. I’m glad you clarified that. ’cause I was gonna hang up now.
Adam Tod Brown: Otherwise not really. Um. So evil. Dan was obsessed with Jim Jones.
Joseph Cibelli: Oh yeah.
Adam Tod Brown: I am obsessed [00:39:00] with the idea that Jim Jones was maybe CIA. Your dad, while he was in the military, seems to have made a really odd trip to Oakland, California.
Joseph Cibelli: Correct.
Adam Tod Brown: At the same time, Jim Jones and the People’s Temple were relocating to Oakland. You think your dad might have been military intelligence of some
Joseph Cibelli: Oh, I think, okay. So when my dad, when he signed up to be in the military, and this is in the book, I try to tell it in his voice, but he, you know, he went to Fort Leonard Wood. To do his basic training. And then he was supposed to be going on to, I don’t remember if it was Georgia or Alabama. I have that in the book.
Um, some people kind of cornered him and said, you know, we got a job for you. They must have seen his propensity for. Being psychotic maybe. And he took a little detour out to Oakland, California, and this was in September of 1969. Um, and then he left there October 4th, but there’s [00:40:00] no actual record of where he was at that time.
It’s redacted. So I can see when he left for somewhere, and I can see when he got to his next location. But this timeframe is redacted and there’s pages that are redacted. So what my mom told me was when my father signed up to be in the Army, he was down for like a three year stint with the Army and they let him.
Take it down to two if he did this, what he was calling his special training. So he got trained, um, explosive ordinance disposal, which is bombs. Um, he was trained as a sniper, as rifleman. I mean, that is in his, um, military records. And then the story that he’s always told me, he’s told my brother, he’s told everybody was that while he was in Oakland, he was trained in poisons.
And he says to me, he said, you know, when I went, when I left for Okinawa, I had, um, I had your mom, I had nuclear codes in my pocket and I had a suicide pill.
Adam Tod Brown: [00:41:00] Geez.
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah. ’cause his thing was, I mean, I, I don’t know. I don’t know if this is true or not, but what my father told me, he said, you know, they always say there were no nukes in Vietnam.
That’s bullshit. He’s like, I had the codes, and he would sneak off. They were on Okinawa and he would leave Okinawa to go over to Vietnam and my mom didn’t even know that he had told her that he was doing guard duty at the base for like three and four days. And she said he’d come back like covered, filthy, dirty.
And finally he was like, yeah, I was over there. So, yeah, he, you know, he talks about his poisoning training. So when I had to have these discussions with my mother, you know, she was crying and I mean, she fully believes he did this. And she also just, her heart breaks for the victims and they also breaks for her children because she’s like, I honestly had no idea how.
Crazy. He was, because he didn’t pull stuff in front of her. I mean, he abused her plenty, but a lot of the abuse that we suffered, she wasn’t there. You know, she was either working or in school. And, [00:42:00] um, you know, he, he really went into some deep detail about this. So, what my mom told me through tears, and I keep saying this, and it just, it breaks my heart because my mom is crying on the phone.
And she said, he promised me, he promised me when he left the military, he left that life behind him.
Adam Tod Brown: Oh
Joseph Cibelli: Yeah,
Adam Tod Brown: yeah, that is intense.
Joseph Cibelli: that was intense. And it’s, you know, it’s hard to hear your mother crying, you know, Hey mom, dad was a mass murderer. You know what I mean? It’s the, none of this has been easy to grapple with and I think she’s doing a great job with it.
But that was the hardest thing for me was her. I mean, she felt like her whole life was a betrayal with him, you know? ’cause he was, he was very manipulative. He could cover up whatever he wanted to. And you know, he let her see what she needed to see. I, you know, it’s, it’s been a, it’s been a hard thing to grapple with for everybody.
And my heart always from day one, has just broken for the victims.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: I, I talked to one of the survivors of the victims, um, she’s a [00:43:00] niece of three people who died and it was gut wrenching talking to her. I mean, just tears. And this is 44 years later. And I look back and there was, there was, um, one of the victims was a mom, and she had just had a baby.
So this child and other children of hers grew up without a mother. And I’m like, I look at a picture of my father and I’m like, you did this. I know you did this. And it just, it, it breaks my heart and my brother is in the same boat. My brother just, he’s, he’s having a hard time dealing with this because of that fact that these people died and lives were affected 44 years later, people are still feeling this.
Adam Tod Brown: And. There’s also a moment in the book where your dad just comes to you and says, I’ve killed people. And that was, that was way before the deathbed thing.
Joseph Cibelli: that was in, that was in 1988. And that is, it was just a very strange night. I was waiting for one of my friends, Tina, to come pick me up and he was hanging out down by my room and I’m like, oh God, why is he down here? We don’t talk, [00:44:00] you know, I mean, we don’t, we don’t, you know, if I see him in the room, I go a different way.
See, sitting there, and I think he had been drinking, which he didn’t even normally drink, but he was. Drinking and he’s sitting there and he is like, you know what? It’s good. You go out with your friends. You know, I’ve never been a real social person. And I was like, yeah, no shit. Most cycles aren’t, you know, I’m thinking that.
I didn’t say it, he would’ve killed me. But you know, we’re having this conversation and it’s just, it’s a strange, strange conversation. And him sitting there and he’s like, well, you know, I’ve killed people. And I’m like, okay, I gotta sit back down now I’m gonna get comfortable ’cause I’m gonna hear what this is.
And I’m like. He starts going on about like, you know, I’ve never been right in the head. I don’t know if it was when I drank that poison when I was a kid, or if it was being in the military or you know what it is, but I’ve never really been quite right in the head. And I’m like, yeah, I know. Now back to, who did you kill? He would kind of go off on another tangent and I’d be like, okay, back to who did you kill? You just told me you’ve killed people. Did you kill people in the military? He specifically said, no, I wasn’t in the military with the bombs. He said I was [00:45:00] there to disarm bombs. I wasn’t there to necessarily plant them, though I knew how.
And I’m like, who did you kill?
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: Won’t answer me. And finally he said, you know what? It’s not important. said, if you’re smart, you’ll figure it out one day.
Adam Tod Brown: Oh man.
Joseph Cibelli: Mm-hmm. He said that a few times to me. He alluded to things and he is like, you know what, if you’re so fucking smart, you’ll figure it out.
Adam Tod Brown: So, okay, this is, uh, my last question. I don’t know why I said it like that, is if there’s a line of other people waiting to ask questions, um. Do you have or have you tried to take any of this to the authorities
Joseph Cibelli: Oh, so this has been an ongoing battle? Yes. So my experience with the police, you know I am, and I’m like a back the blue type person. You know, I believe we have police for a reason. It’s just they don’t necessarily do what they’re supposed to do. So in 82, when all of this was starting, my [00:46:00] dad, I’d tell you that was such a horrible year.
He was be like literally just beating the shit out of my mom. I’d call the cops. They didn’t need the address, they knew where to go. Cop would show up and be like, knock it off, whatever’s going on there, knock it off. So, so many times through my life I had to intervene. And that was, that was the gist of it.
So I didn’t have a good experience then. And then when I, when he first admitted this, when he was dying and he said this, and I mean, I’m telling you, my hair stood straight up and I was like, okay, I gotta start putting this together. I reached out. I had first reached out. To the niece of the three victims that I was talking about, and I wanted to tell her what I was working on and that I feel like this is accurate.
So we had a, we had a pretty long conversation and I, I wanted to, in my own way, give her some power back. And I said, what do you want me to do with this information? And she told me, she said, please. [00:47:00] Please, please, if you 100% feel that your dad did this, you need to call the Arlington Heights Police Department, which is Arlington Heights, Illinois.
So apparently I’ve seen this on a few documentaries, they have, um, a Tylenol task force. So I hung up the phone with her and I, I have the dates and the times, and I wanna say it was like two 13 in the afternoon. I hung up the phone with her and at two twenty one I called the Arlington Heights Police. So, you know, like seven, eight minutes later, I’m on the phone with them,
Adam Tod Brown: right.
Joseph Cibelli: called their non-emergency number.
Talked to a gentleman, said, you know, I, I’ve got some information I wanna share. It’s about the Tylenol murders. Do you have a Tylenol task force? He’s like, Tylenol murders. We haven’t had anything to do with, oh man, it’s gotta be what, maybe 20 years ago. We haven’t had anything with those. And I said, oh, I said, I just watched a documentary and they said, you guys have an active task force for the Tylenol?
Nope. Nope, we don’t.
Adam Tod Brown: Geez.
Joseph Cibelli: So at that point [00:48:00] then. My heart is breaking even more because I just got off the phone with this woman who is crying to me about how her whole family was destroyed because of what my father did. And then she’s the one telling me, call Arlington Heights, I’m calling them and they don’t even have a task force.
So my heart’s breaking more for her because she’s got her faith in like, they’re gonna do something, they’re gonna, they’re gonna solve this. So this guy is like, no, but I can put you in touch with the detective. You know? So he. Puts me to this guy’s, Orlando, I’ll say his last name. Detective Orlando in Arlington Heights puts me to his voicemail.
I leave him a message, and I’m trying to not sound like a nutcase because I know this can come across that way. And that is why I wrote the book, was because I could have it in writing first. You know what I mean? So it’s not coming across like some lunatic who just got out of an asylum. So I left him this message.
I’m like, you know what? I’ve got information about this. Can you please call me back? Never heard anything, so I gave the guy 48 hours. I’m like an investigator. [00:49:00] I was like, you got 48 hours. I’m thinking. Found a direct number for him. Called him again. This time I think he saw it was me and put me into voicemail.
Adam Tod Brown: Geez.
Joseph Cibelli: Finally, a week later, I get a call from a, an officer, um, and I wanna say his last name is Eck, D-U-D-E-K. He calls me and you could see him on the phone practically, like going, cool, cool, cool, cool. Because I’m telling him the story and he’s like, well, you know, do you have a timeline or anything? And I said, I will put it together for you.
I am writing this right now. So I called a friend of mine, Kelly in Chicago. She’s a. Criminal defense attorney and I said, Kelly, this is what’s going on. But she knew what was going on and I said, I need to come up with something I can give the police because I need to give them a timeline. I need to give them something.
So she’s working on something. And in the meantime, I had worked on the first draft of the book, sent it to her, and she says, you know what F it. Just send them the whole book because every page of what you’ve written is evidence. She goes, you can’t really extract anything out of this to send them. She said, send them the whole thing.
[00:50:00] Never heard a peep.
Adam Tod Brown: Geez, they can’t even run it through Adobe and have it read it to them. Like I get that. It’s a lot of
Joseph Cibelli: mean, if they called me, I would, I would put the audible book on for them, you know what I mean? I would send them the audible book if they don’t wanna read it. And you know, it’s just, it’s all just so sad. I know that it was a long time ago, people died and people’s lives are still affected,
Adam Tod Brown: And it, it was a long time ago, but there were mothers who died
Joseph Cibelli: children are younger. Those children who lost their mother then are way younger than I am. You know, I, it’s, it’s just, it’s devastating. But one good thing that has come about was through connections I have. I was able to talk with a woman named Helen Jensen. And Helen Jensen was the nurse who on the second day of the deaths.
Was the one who said, it’s gotta be the Tylenol.
Adam Tod Brown: Oh.
Joseph Cibelli: She figured it out, like right now. She figured it out. And that [00:51:00] changed the trajectory. And for a woman in 1982 to be that bold and to stand up, like people were going against her being like, you’re crazy. It’s not the Tylenol. She’s like, it’s the Tylenol. So anyway, she’s 88 now and I had the opportunity to talk to her actually twice this last week.
And I gave her the rundown for my story and she told me, she said. I’ve heard every theory about this and she said, yours makes the most sense. And she said, I’m 88 years old, and now I feel like I can put this to bed.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. I mean, that’s something that
Joseph Cibelli: of high praise from her. I mean, she was integral in this, this, they would not have figured out it was the Tylenol if it wasn’t for her for, I mean, who knows how long it would’ve taken.
Adam Tod Brown: Yeah. Yeah, and I mean, I agree with her after reading this book. I, I think there’s not really any question that you’re right about this. And I, uh, I think everyone should read this book. It’s a very interesting read. I, again, think it would [00:52:00] make a fantastic movie and.
Joseph Cibelli: Thank you.
Adam Tod Brown: I thank you so much for doing the pod.
Do you have any final thoughts, anything I left out that you want to address?
Joseph Cibelli: No. Um, the, the biggest thing is, you know, the book is on Amazon and that’s great. You know, I would love everybody in the world to buy it, but if anybody has any information for me, I, I don’t do social media very well, but I just started a Facebook page, and I know it’s Facebook, but it’s Joseph Elli. My picture’s on there, the cover of the book’s on there.
I, I just, if anybody is reading this, if anybody has any information about anything, because there are more crimes, my father was. Involved with, please reach out to me. Um, yes, obviously I want you to buy the book, but even if you didn’t buy the book and you know something, please, please, please reach out to me.
Adam Tod Brown: everyone do that. Yeah. Did I guess that that was one question I didn’t ask you. You keep mentioning other crimes. Do you think like major [00:53:00] crimes, like crimes people know about or just
Joseph Cibelli: Well, one.
Adam Tod Brown: Oh yeah.
Joseph Cibelli: And it’s, it’s, you know, I’m my brother and I now, we, we didn’t get along for years. My father had put a wedge between us definitely. But we’re kind of getting onto the same page now and pretty much on a conversation one day we’re at the same time. We’re like, do you think he was involved in.dot?
And we were like, oh, F yes. So, yeah, there are some other crimes that I wanna address as well that were, that are not. I don’t wanna say they’re not big because somebody died. Um, they’re not national news per se, but yet there was somebody who died with this and it’s just been swept under the rug for, you know, 40 years.
And I’m, we’re working on those right now while we’re compiling something else. So yeah, there’s more to come.
Adam Tod Brown: I look forward to reading that. And Joseph, thank you so much again for doing the podcast. I appreciate
Joseph Cibelli: was great. This was great. Thank [00:54:00] you.
Adam Tod Brown: Thank you.