Conspiracy! The Show 300: Why MK Ultra Is the Most Frustrating Conspiracy Theory

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I.
Hey everybody, welcome to

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Conspiracy the Show.
I’m your host Adam Todd Brown

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joining me as Co host this week.
Oh, my favorite Co host of all.

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No Co host, but I do have a
couple of fantastic guests.

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Case in point, first time guest
Dante Wimberly.

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How’s it going, man?
How you guys doing?

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Glad to be here.
Thanks for having me on.

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Thank you for doing it, I
appreciate it.

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Tell the people a little bit
about yourself.

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Yeah, I’m an artist.
I was in a lot of movement

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spaces over the past decade,
been really active and involved

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in a lot of different social
movements.

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Mostly a artist, self-taught
student, and yeah, just

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interested in all things
political, interested in all

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things conspiracy and things
like that.

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So I’m happy to be here.
Thanks for having me on.

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Yeah, thank you for doing it.
Me and Dante are in a fantasy

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Football League right now that
you know, you’re three.

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I am.
Oh, and three.

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I’m getting fucking smoked right
now.

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That’s fine.
I’ll bring it around.

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Also joining us.
You all know her.

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You all love her.
Hannah Michaels is here.

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Hey, what’s up?
I’m Hannah Michaels.

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I’ve been here before, I guess,
you know, normally I would call

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myself the resident skeptic,
except for things like MK Ultra.

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Yeah, MK Ultra is one of my
favorite things to talk about.

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We were just going to talk about
this one MK Ultra figure, and

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then I read this article during
the research for this and it

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really sent me on a tangent
because I really hate the way

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people talk about MK Ultra,
especially when they call it a

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conspiracy theory.
It’s not.

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It’s just a long standing
government program.

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Before we dive into it because
I’ve talked about MK Ultra a

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bunch, but what’s everyone
else’s familiarity with it?

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Dante, how about you?
I feel like the biggest thing

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from MK Ultra was like the LSD
experiments.

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You know, people have kind of
implicated the Manson Family and

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a lot of the experiments that
were happening, as well as other

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cults.
But I feel like that’s the big

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thing from a cursory glance,
that sticks out for me.

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It’s like attempts at mind
control.

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I know there were other, like,
more ridiculous elements, like

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trying to get people to use,
like, telepathy or like

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psychokinesis or things like
that, like just testing in the

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paranormal around other things.
But I feel like, yeah, like the

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LSD experiments are probably the
thing that’s most engraved for

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me when I think about MK Ultra.
Yeah, I always wondered, they

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did those, all those LSD
experiments, did they just come

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out the other end realizing
people fucking love LSD because

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it’s great.
It is great.

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You never tried it.
Wow, Chef’s kiss.

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Fantastic.
It’s not super great when you

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take it and then someone feels
like they have to read their

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manifesto, so maybe the
government version of LSD is not

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great.
I’ve had them happen separately,

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so I can imagine.
If I even knew someone who had a

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manifesto, I’d probably cut them
out of my life.

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That’s.
Bro, you’re a comic.

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You do.
Oh yeah, probably that wouldn’t.

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You just don’t.
You just haven’t been sent it

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yet.
I just need the right manifesto.

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I’m willing to hear you out, but
if your manifesto starts

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sounding wonky, I’m out of there
for sure.

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Yeah, yeah, I think my not
really favorite, it’s hard to

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say you have a favorite aspect
of something as horrible as MK

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Ultra.
But the part that has always

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stood out to me is as part of
this, the CIA ran a brothel in

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San Francisco in the 60s.
And people treat it like, oh,

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isn’t that wacky?
My question is, where did the

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girls come from?
And.

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How were they treated?
Yeah.

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Were they government employees?
Were they fucking kidnapped?

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Did they?
Were they?

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Part of the experiment?
Were they informed of that?

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Yeah, I do wonder if they were
informed of that part because it

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is exactly what it sounds like.
The CIA set up a brothel and it

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had one of those police
interrogation room mirrors in

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it, which if I walked into a
brothel and saw that, I’d be

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like, all right, I’m out.
You’re obviously watching what’s

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happening.
And they would just watch dudes

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have sex with prostitutes.
It’s.

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Probably a front, probably
through some sort of front

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operation.
Yeah, that CIA loves a fucking

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front.
So many.

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Fucking they love a front and.
I love a way they use.

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Yeah, and they also love a way
to use government funds to do

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some shit they want to do that’s
not legal.

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Yeah.
I mean, cops love that.

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Lower level law enforcement
loves that so.

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Yeah.
So, yeah, like I said, we were

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going to talk just about you and
Cameron, but I found this

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article, and I don’t so much
care about the subject of the

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article, which is this video of
Cardi B on the red carpet at

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some event, I think it was 2019,
And she’s talking and then just

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like, freezes up for a couple
seconds and people freaked out

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and said she was glitching out
and that it was MK Ultra

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related.
And it’s like, citation needed.

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To me, it looked like she just
saw something off in the

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distance that caught her
attention because the woman

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interviewing her just starts
going it’s good, it’s good, it’s

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good.
And Cardi B was like, oh, it’s

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good, OK.
And people were like, she’s been

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programmed.
It’s.

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Like why Cardi B?
Yeah.

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Yeah.
What is Cardi B out there doing

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on behalf of the American
government?

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Making songs, Making music about
sex.

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That’s been happening.
Destroyed the community working

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in the youth.
Is that?

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Yeah, yeah.
And I don’t care about that

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part.
I think that is perfectly

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explainable.
What I hate is the way this

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article treats this story.
And I want to talk about a few

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different lines in this article
that especially bothered me.

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The first one, MK Ultra, is a
wild conspiracy theory that has

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infiltrated certain corners of
the Internet.

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End Quote.
No, it’s not.

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It’s a government program that
ran for decades.

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It’s not a conspiracy theory.
They admitted to it.

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It.
It’s like when you say CIA sold

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crack to inner cities.
They admitted to it.

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Yeah, those aren’t conspiracies.
You and I will argue about

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Bigfoot, but you can’t argue
about this.

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Yeah, I’m, I don’t, I want to
believe when it comes to

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Bigfoot.
Dante, are you you a Bigfoot

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believer?
I’m not in the woods enough to

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say that Bigfoot doesn’t exist.
See, I agree.

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That’s kind of my stance.
I disagree with this idea that

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oh, we would we would see bodies
all over the place.

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Maybe they’ve evolved to avoid
humans.

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That’s I wouldn’t mind doing
that.

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I wouldn’t mind evolving to
avoid humans.

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Maybe Bigfoot?
But I mean, my only issue is

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Pacific Northwest.
Why would they go there?

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I agree with that.
That place sucks.

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Yeah.
So yeah, with MK Ultra, the only

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reason we don’t know more about
it is the CIA shredded most of

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the documents pertaining to it
after Watergate happened and

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someone accidentally stored like
20,000 documents in the wrong

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place and those never got
shredded and that’s how we know

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about MK Ultra.
So Watergate was also how we

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find out about COINTELPRO,
right?

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I feel like that was the big
yeah.

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I believe so it.
Was like a watershed moment for

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a lot of CIA activities.
Yeah, because what happens after

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Watergate is the Church
Committee hearings, which were

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all about trying to bring the
intelligence community to task.

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And that’s where the thing where
the CIA can’t do their shit on

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American citizens came from.
It’s like we have 18

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intelligence agencies, they
don’t need to operate on

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Americans anymore, and that
actually leads to the next line.

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The MK Ultra program was
officially a failure, with the

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CIA embarrassed by its lack of
concrete findings, shutting it

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down in 1973.
End Quote.

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Again, fucking citation needed.
Where is it in the historical

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record that the CIA was
embarrassed by their lack of

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findings and shut this program
down?

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I believe they shut it down but.
Yeah, I mean, there were lack

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of, there was a lack of findings
in some areas that any rational

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human could have told you there
would be a lack of findings.

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You know, it’s children playing
with their money at that point.

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But right, there are some areas
we just don’t know.

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Yeah.
And.

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Maybe they could have been
embarrassed by, I guess the

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more, and I’m not as well right
on it, I’ll know only a little

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cursory about it.
But maybe they were embarrassed

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by the more paranormal aspects
of the program, where it’s like

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if you have to go in front of a
congressional hearing, say,

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yeah, we’re trying to get people
to live things with their mind,

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I could see how that would be.
Yeah.

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Very embarrassing.
Yeah, we poured millions of

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dollars into this.
Yeah.

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We sure did.
And yeah, I keep promising that

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I’m going to do a bunch of
episodes about the Church

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Committee hearings, and I will.
But one of the craziest moments

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from those hearings is I forget
who’s asking the questions, but

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they’re talking to then CIA
director, I think it was Richard

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Helms.
And they’re like, what’s going

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on with this shellfish toxin
gun?

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We heard you made a gun that you
can assassinate people with that

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shoots shellfish toxin arrows.
And not only does he confirm it,

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he fucking pulls it out and it’s
like, yeah, it’s right here.

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It’s honestly, if you look into
shellfish toxin, if I’m ever

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assassinated, that’s how I want
it to happen.

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It sounds so fucking pleasant.
You just, there’s no pain.

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You just fucking die.
But yeah, yeah, the CIA was into

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some crazy shit in the 70s,
sixties, 70s, fifties, all that.

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But when?
90s, yeah. 90s Two Thousands,

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2010.
Forever the hits of 80s,

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nineties and today.
Yeah, yeah, They were especially

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hot in the 80s.
I don’t know what the CIA was up

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to in the 90s when we didn’t
have enemies.

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Probably trying to drum up new
enemies.

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I.
Think was one of the things.

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Or they focused on Islamism.
They were trying to recruit.

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They were trying to recruit
Islamists to help topple regimes

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in the 90s.
So like PSI Afghanistan, they

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were really big and like trying
to recruit Islamists.

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Was the Shah of Iran earlier or
that was earlier that?

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Was 70s I think right 70s. 70s,
yeah.

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My thing about them saying they
ended the program because there

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was a lack of results.
Has anyone ever asked what

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results they were looking for
and how do they know there was a

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lack of results?
What did they have people do

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after putting them through these
experiments for them to

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determine there was a lack of
results?

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I’ve never heard anyone answer
that.

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Was the official story of the
brainwashing like Manchurian

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Candidate?
Is that the official story that

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we were looking for?
Specifically, how to brainwash

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and get them to carry out tasks
unwittingly.

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That’s, I think more of a rumor
or a suspicion.

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I think the official explanation
that they gave is that they were

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looking for like interrogation
techniques and torture

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techniques.
And the thing about mind control

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hasn’t because they shredded all
the documents.

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That hasn’t ever been confirmed.
But the CIA was interested in

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mind control for a long time,
starting after.

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00:11:38,200 –> 00:11:41,600
I believe it was the.
Yeah, because because people

221
00:11:41,600 –> 00:11:43,960
were being flipped, like
prisoners of war were being

222
00:11:43,960 –> 00:11:47,400
captured by like Chinese and
Korean soldiers and they were

223
00:11:47,400 –> 00:11:50,080
like defecting.
So the CIA was basically like,

224
00:11:50,080 –> 00:11:52,400
oh, they’re being brainwashed by
the communists.

225
00:11:52,400 –> 00:11:54,240
Like we have to.
But it’s like the communists

226
00:11:54,240 –> 00:11:55,200
would literally just talk to
them.

227
00:11:55,200 –> 00:11:57,920
Like, hey, you know, you
fighting for the imperial power,

228
00:11:58,000 –> 00:12:01,440
you’re they’re going to war to
support corporations.

229
00:12:01,640 –> 00:12:03,200
Basically.
They’re talking to soldiers and

230
00:12:03,200 –> 00:12:06,040
soldiers would like defect.
A lot of soldiers would have

231
00:12:06,040 –> 00:12:08,120
defected.
And so the CIA was like, oh,

232
00:12:08,120 –> 00:12:11,040
they’re being brain.
We have to like, get a hold on

233
00:12:11,040 –> 00:12:13,720
this brainwashing technique.
There is kind of a through line

234
00:12:13,720 –> 00:12:16,600
with cults and cult
deprogramming because cult

235
00:12:16,600 –> 00:12:20,000
deprogramming is just as
unethical as the cult if the

236
00:12:20,000 –> 00:12:24,040
person doesn’t agree to it it
they use the same tactics as the

237
00:12:24,040 –> 00:12:26,760
cults.
Oh yeah, there’s a fantastic

238
00:12:26,760 –> 00:12:31,080
documentary out there called
Deprogrammed and it’s about a

239
00:12:31,080 –> 00:12:36,240
guy who was the premier cult D
programmer in the 70s and 80s

240
00:12:36,360 –> 00:12:39,440
and all he would do is kidnap
motherfuckers off the street,

241
00:12:39,520 –> 00:12:42,160
lock them in a hotel room for a
weekend and be like.

242
00:12:42,280 –> 00:12:44,000
Adults on behest of their
parents?

243
00:12:44,560 –> 00:12:46,320
Yeah, 1819 year olds.
Like treatment?

244
00:12:46,960 –> 00:12:48,880
Like what?
They do it for troubled youth.

245
00:12:49,080 –> 00:12:50,000
I forget.
Oh, like.

246
00:12:50,000 –> 00:12:52,720
Those teen centers?
Yeah, yeah, where they literally

247
00:12:52,720 –> 00:12:55,240
kidnap you in the middle of the
night and then put you in like,

248
00:12:55,240 –> 00:12:57,440
treatment.
Yeah, that all feels like MK

249
00:12:57,440 –> 00:13:01,360
Ultra shit to me too.
Probably on shoot.

250
00:13:01,520 –> 00:13:04,360
It was probably a fertile ground
for a lot of testing of making

251
00:13:04,360 –> 00:13:07,280
people highly suggestible.
Yeah, that wouldn’t surprise me.

252
00:13:07,360 –> 00:13:12,680
And the thing about mind
control, when it comes to MK

253
00:13:12,680 –> 00:13:16,920
Ultra, people always kind of
scoff at the idea that maybe the

254
00:13:17,120 –> 00:13:20,400
CIA and the government was
working on can we get someone to

255
00:13:20,400 –> 00:13:23,520
assassinate someone at our
behest.

256
00:13:23,680 –> 00:13:27,800
And people laugh that off even
though MK Ultra was happening

257
00:13:27,800 –> 00:13:32,320
when the entire high level
progressive movement in this

258
00:13:32,320 –> 00:13:34,160
country was getting
assassinated.

259
00:13:34,280 –> 00:13:36,920
Like year after year
motherfuckers were getting

260
00:13:37,320 –> 00:13:42,120
assassinated in not always, but
in a lot of cases kind of weird

261
00:13:42,200 –> 00:13:48,520
MK Ultra fashion like Malcolm X,
No Fred Hampton, no Bobby

262
00:13:48,520 –> 00:13:50,760
Kennedy.
Yeah, that was some MK Ultra

263
00:13:50,880 –> 00:13:53,160
shit.
Martin Luther King probably, but

264
00:13:53,360 –> 00:13:55,120
we don’t know who actually
killed him.

265
00:13:55,120 –> 00:13:59,000
So there’s no no word on that.
But I mean, we know officially,

266
00:13:59,160 –> 00:14:01,160
but that’s a future episode.
Everybody.

267
00:14:01,160 –> 00:14:05,360
The time ML KS family sued the
government and won.

268
00:14:06,040 –> 00:14:10,240
So yeah, a thing that is really
important to keep in mind about

269
00:14:10,240 –> 00:14:13,880
the CIA is they are a
collaboration with the Nazis.

270
00:14:14,000 –> 00:14:17,560
Operation Paper clip was a thing
that happened after World War 2

271
00:14:17,560 –> 00:14:20,760
where we brought Nazi
scientists, doctors, shit like

272
00:14:20,760 –> 00:14:23,720
that over and kind of integrated
them into the American

273
00:14:23,720 –> 00:14:26,800
government.
And the CIA at its foundation

274
00:14:26,800 –> 00:14:31,160
was half Office of Special
Services, I think it’s called.

275
00:14:31,160 –> 00:14:35,960
That was AUSA precursor to the
CIA and the other half was just

276
00:14:36,080 –> 00:14:39,760
s s members.
So our biggest intelligence

277
00:14:39,760 –> 00:14:42,720
agency was half Nazi at its
foundation.

278
00:14:42,800 –> 00:14:44,680
That’s not conspiracy theory
shit either.

279
00:14:44,680 –> 00:14:47,000
Like operation paper clip.
We know all about that.

280
00:14:47,080 –> 00:14:50,520
And I guess my question would be
when did they stop being Nazis

281
00:14:50,520 –> 00:14:54,120
Because is that how Nazis work?
Did they stop being that or have

282
00:14:54,120 –> 00:14:57,640
we just had a half Nazi
intelligence agency this whole

283
00:14:57,640 –> 00:14:59,400
time?
They seem kind of Nazi.

284
00:14:59,480 –> 00:15:02,920
Well, I mean, I think it’s
interesting the idea of a Nazi

285
00:15:02,920 –> 00:15:05,360
in the and that’s even the dude
we’re going to talk about you

286
00:15:05,360 –> 00:15:08,760
and Cameron, the notion that the
Nazis are somehow vastly

287
00:15:08,760 –> 00:15:11,640
different from like regular
everyday people.

288
00:15:11,720 –> 00:15:14,000
It’s something that I find
really, really fascinating and

289
00:15:14,000 –> 00:15:17,120
really important to like
America’s and also just the West

290
00:15:17,120 –> 00:15:20,880
in general is like narrative
post war is that these Nazis are

291
00:15:20,880 –> 00:15:24,800
like particularities, like
they’re specific and special.

292
00:15:24,800 –> 00:15:27,600
Whereas like the Nazi ideology
is like, I mean, it’s something

293
00:15:27,600 –> 00:15:29,800
specific to Germany.
But I guess the underlying

294
00:15:29,800 –> 00:15:32,840
fascism inherent with it is
something that’s like very deep

295
00:15:32,840 –> 00:15:35,040
into the psyche of every
European country.

296
00:15:35,040 –> 00:15:38,280
And it’s his particular idea
that it was something specific

297
00:15:38,280 –> 00:15:39,920
about the Germans that made them
do this.

298
00:15:39,920 –> 00:15:43,160
I very much disagree with.
I think Hannah Arden has a book

299
00:15:43,160 –> 00:15:47,320
about the banality of evil in
that like anybody can be made to

300
00:15:47,320 –> 00:15:51,480
commit atrocities as long as
you’re able to justify it

301
00:15:51,480 –> 00:15:54,880
through ideology or say, hey,
yeah, I’m doing this on behalf

302
00:15:54,880 –> 00:15:56,600
of something else.
I’m doing this to serve a

303
00:15:56,600 –> 00:15:58,600
greater purpose.
XYZ.

304
00:15:58,600 –> 00:16:01,560
Like a lot of people can be made
to commit atrocities without

305
00:16:01,560 –> 00:16:04,480
ultra tactics.
Just general Milgram experiment

306
00:16:04,480 –> 00:16:05,680
type.
Absolutely.

307
00:16:05,680 –> 00:16:08,840
The only thing that I was
wondering was a failure was when

308
00:16:08,840 –> 00:16:11,040
you were talking about
unknowingly assassinate, because

309
00:16:11,040 –> 00:16:13,920
you could absolutely get people
to knowingly assassinate anyone.

310
00:16:14,560 –> 00:16:17,360
Oh yeah, yeah.
I have a little bit about Bobby

311
00:16:17,360 –> 00:16:20,840
Kennedy in the notes somewhere,
but I think that’s what happened

312
00:16:20,880 –> 00:16:24,600
with him.
I think Sir Han, Sir Han was the

313
00:16:24,600 –> 00:16:26,120
Patsy, whatever you want to call
it.

314
00:16:26,160 –> 00:16:29,000
But I mean, there’s
documentaries and things out

315
00:16:29,000 –> 00:16:30,200
there that you can watch about
it.

316
00:16:30,200 –> 00:16:33,640
Sir Han, Sir Han never got close
enough to Bobby Kennedy to fire

317
00:16:33,640 –> 00:16:37,520
the shot that killed him.
Meanwhile, the LAPD officer who

318
00:16:37,520 –> 00:16:40,760
was escorting Bobby Kennedy
through the kitchen when he was

319
00:16:40,760 –> 00:16:45,840
shot was a hardcore right winger
who probably didn’t associate

320
00:16:45,840 –> 00:16:48,280
with Bobby Kennedy’s politics
that much.

321
00:16:48,360 –> 00:16:52,800
And the shot that kills Kennedy
is fired from point blank range

322
00:16:52,920 –> 00:16:55,560
behind his right ear.
And it was like a 22.

323
00:16:55,840 –> 00:16:58,960
Interesting because it was
actually, from what I remember,

324
00:16:59,080 –> 00:17:03,480
the LAPD that confiscated that
high school journalist’s photos,

325
00:17:03,920 –> 00:17:06,359
not a higher up government
official from what I remember.

326
00:17:06,359 –> 00:17:08,040
I could be wrong.
Yeah, yeah.

327
00:17:08,359 –> 00:17:10,520
I mean, we don’t have time to
get into all of the.

328
00:17:10,640 –> 00:17:13,240
I did an episode about the Bobby
Kennedy assassination.

329
00:17:13,240 –> 00:17:17,520
It’s a fucking weird 1 and it
feels the most MK Ultra to me

330
00:17:17,760 –> 00:17:19,880
except Reagan.
Reagan also, but.

331
00:17:20,359 –> 00:17:23,400
I guess Reagans more Heritage
Foundation, which I guess you

332
00:17:23,400 –> 00:17:27,920
know, you’ve got a blending of
government interests anyway.

333
00:17:28,440 –> 00:17:31,520
Where does that end?
Where does MK Ultra begin?

334
00:17:31,520 –> 00:17:33,320
And things like the Heritage
Foundation.

335
00:17:33,840 –> 00:17:37,200
Yeah, one of my favorite
unprovable conspiracy theories

336
00:17:37,280 –> 00:17:40,760
is the notion that the CIA
actually tried to kill Reagan,

337
00:17:40,880 –> 00:17:44,640
because the timeline works out,
because the Church Committee

338
00:17:44,640 –> 00:17:47,600
hearings happen.
Jimmy Carter comes in office and

339
00:17:47,600 –> 00:17:51,120
is like, all right, we’re going
to fucking put some restraints

340
00:17:51,200 –> 00:17:54,440
on the CIA.
And then as if by magic, the

341
00:17:54,480 –> 00:17:58,480
then director of the CIA decides
to run for vice president for

342
00:17:58,480 –> 00:18:01,400
the first time in history.
That’s George HW Bush.

343
00:18:01,520 –> 00:18:05,800
And they do this sneaky shit in
Iran with hostages, the October

344
00:18:05,800 –> 00:18:08,760
Surprise to get Reagan elected
and then what happens?

345
00:18:09,240 –> 00:18:13,960
Reagan almost gets assassinated
in weird MK Ultra fashion but he

346
00:18:13,960 –> 00:18:15,680
survives.
I think they were trying to

347
00:18:15,680 –> 00:18:20,120
fucking kill Reagan and put
George HW Bush in office to keep

348
00:18:20,200 –> 00:18:23,320
all those constraints from being
put on what they were doing but

349
00:18:23,480 –> 00:18:25,560
can’t prove it.
And even if I could, what the

350
00:18:25,560 –> 00:18:27,800
fuck would happen?
That’s my whole thing about

351
00:18:27,800 –> 00:18:29,680
this.
Every time we talk about the

352
00:18:29,680 –> 00:18:31,800
CIA, it’s like, what’s the
point?

353
00:18:31,880 –> 00:18:33,960
This is like a true crime
podcast.

354
00:18:33,960 –> 00:18:36,040
Basically.
We’re just marveling at the

355
00:18:36,040 –> 00:18:39,600
tactics of very skilled
murderers and terrible people.

356
00:18:39,600 –> 00:18:42,200
But we could know all of this
and it wouldn’t matter.

357
00:18:42,280 –> 00:18:43,960
We wouldn’t bring anyone to
justice.

358
00:18:44,000 –> 00:18:46,440
Do you think it’s important
ideologically for people to

359
00:18:46,440 –> 00:18:48,520
know?
Because I think on some level

360
00:18:48,520 –> 00:18:50,560
most Americans would like the
CIA.

361
00:18:51,000 –> 00:18:53,480
We can say, oh, the CIA has done
terrible things, but most

362
00:18:53,480 –> 00:18:56,440
Americans will say, oh, well,
they’re doing this thing to

363
00:18:56,440 –> 00:18:59,520
serve American interests, which
are just like corporate

364
00:18:59,520 –> 00:19:01,040
interests.
So I don’t know.

365
00:19:01,080 –> 00:19:03,480
Do you think it would be
important to have that discourse

366
00:19:03,480 –> 00:19:06,960
in order to get the majority of
Americans to, I guess, break

367
00:19:06,960 –> 00:19:10,800
with their attachment to the
intelligence apparatus as like

368
00:19:10,800 –> 00:19:13,200
something to uphold?
Because if you ask like there

369
00:19:13,200 –> 00:19:15,480
are also people was like, yeah,
we should abolish the CIA.

370
00:19:15,480 –> 00:19:17,880
That was like a big, I think
that was one, one of the things

371
00:19:17,880 –> 00:19:21,960
that Kennedy, you know, at least
tacitly remarked, taking the CIA

372
00:19:21,960 –> 00:19:24,960
and destroying it and scattering
it into a bunch of pieces.

373
00:19:25,040 –> 00:19:27,760
So like the notion of abolishing
the CIA, how do you think people

374
00:19:27,760 –> 00:19:29,840
would respond to that?
You think they would respond

375
00:19:30,160 –> 00:19:34,080
positively or be like I don’t
know they help keep us safe like

376
00:19:34,080 –> 00:19:37,520
the police XYZ.
Yeah, I wonder if it would, and

377
00:19:37,520 –> 00:19:40,120
that that is a good point.
Like for that reason, people

378
00:19:40,200 –> 00:19:43,680
should definitely know about
more of what the CIA does.

379
00:19:43,800 –> 00:19:48,680
I wonder if just because of the
times we’re living in now, if

380
00:19:48,720 –> 00:19:52,080
even that would just break on
party lines.

381
00:19:52,200 –> 00:19:54,680
Like there’d be one side of the
country that’s like, oh shit, we

382
00:19:54,680 –> 00:19:57,720
should abolish the CIA.
And then I’m assuming the right

383
00:19:57,720 –> 00:19:59,680
wingers would be like, now they
keep us safe.

384
00:19:59,680 –> 00:20:01,160
We need to topple those
governments.

385
00:20:01,440 –> 00:20:03,120
I think it would be flipped
actually.

386
00:20:03,120 –> 00:20:06,080
I think the right wing is very
anti establishment

387
00:20:06,080 –> 00:20:08,360
conspiratorial.
So if they are.

388
00:20:08,640 –> 00:20:09,800
Very, Yeah.
They’re May.

389
00:20:09,800 –> 00:20:11,440
I feel like the left.
Well, I don’t want to say the

390
00:20:11,440 –> 00:20:13,720
left, but I feel like the
Democrats would probably be the

391
00:20:13,720 –> 00:20:16,120
one that says, oh, it’s
important to have.

392
00:20:16,200 –> 00:20:18,520
Democratic candidates would
certainly uphold, yeah.

393
00:20:18,880 –> 00:20:21,480
Yeah, whereas the right wing
would be like they would just

394
00:20:21,480 –> 00:20:25,040
feed the base of yeah, like this
deep, fuck the deep state.

395
00:20:25,120 –> 00:20:28,920
Like fuck the, you know the
puppets working, they’re trying

396
00:20:28,920 –> 00:20:31,880
to kill Trump yada yada yada.
I could definitely see the right

397
00:20:31,880 –> 00:20:35,680
wing being the one most gung Co
about abolishing the CIA and the

398
00:20:35,720 –> 00:20:38,520
Democrats specifically would be
like no, we need these

399
00:20:38,520 –> 00:20:40,720
institutions in place.
Yeah, that’s one of the

400
00:20:40,720 –> 00:20:44,960
frustrating things about right
wingers in their push to abolish

401
00:20:44,960 –> 00:20:47,920
the FBI.
It’s like, yeah, but I think we

402
00:20:47,920 –> 00:20:50,920
want that for different reasons.
I think you just want a right

403
00:20:50,920 –> 00:20:54,160
wing version of the FBI to
replace the current FBI.

404
00:20:54,160 –> 00:20:56,040
And I’m like, yeah, aren’t the
police or not?

405
00:20:56,040 –> 00:20:59,400
Isn’t the current FBI the right
wing version of the FBI?

406
00:20:59,680 –> 00:21:02,800
Yes yes that too but like a more
right wing version.

407
00:21:02,800 –> 00:21:07,760
Yes if that’s fucking possible.
I wrote a sub stack article

408
00:21:07,760 –> 00:21:10,440
about this.
I went to an FBI exhibit at the

409
00:21:10,440 –> 00:21:13,440
Ronald Reagan library which
fucking shivers.

410
00:21:13,440 –> 00:21:16,040
But there is a room in the
Reagan library where they just

411
00:21:16,040 –> 00:21:19,600
play him getting shot on loop,
and it’s like 2 minutes.

412
00:21:19,600 –> 00:21:23,200
So you can see it like 20
fucking times if you stay there

413
00:21:23,320 –> 00:21:25,400
long enough.
And I lingered for a little bit,

414
00:21:25,480 –> 00:21:29,800
but in the FBI exhibit, they had
a plaque on the wall that was

415
00:21:29,800 –> 00:21:33,400
all about how dedicated they’ve
been to upholding civil rights

416
00:21:33,400 –> 00:21:35,720
over the years.
And it’s like, oh, at least you

417
00:21:35,720 –> 00:21:37,760
have a fucking sense of humor
about things.

418
00:21:38,000 –> 00:21:41,960
In what world has the FBI upheld
civil rights?

419
00:21:41,960 –> 00:21:45,680
It’s fucking nuts, but yeah.
It’s super, it’s super tough

420
00:21:45,680 –> 00:21:49,360
because I even though the FBI
was the main ones doing like the

421
00:21:49,360 –> 00:21:51,960
COINTELPRO and the mass
surveillance in the breaking up

422
00:21:51,960 –> 00:21:54,920
of organizations, I feel like
over the last 30 years they have

423
00:21:54,920 –> 00:21:58,040
really been big in terms of
trying to combat hate crimes.

424
00:21:58,080 –> 00:22:01,280
Yeah, like at least
rhetorically, the, the FBI is

425
00:22:01,280 –> 00:22:02,720
kind of the.
And that’s the thing of like,

426
00:22:02,720 –> 00:22:05,720
oh, the FBI investigate hate,
hate crime and hate groups.

427
00:22:06,040 –> 00:22:10,160
So it’s the FBI that’s stifling
the the domestic terrorists in

428
00:22:10,160 –> 00:22:13,320
the in the right wing militias
is that the FBI is the

429
00:22:13,320 –> 00:22:16,640
institution that like keeps at
Bay the worst elements of, you

430
00:22:16,640 –> 00:22:20,120
know, American Society.
So it is a very that’s their

431
00:22:20,120 –> 00:22:21,600
rhetoric.
That’s like the rhetoric they

432
00:22:21,600 –> 00:22:24,040
use.
So it is a very complicated like

433
00:22:24,040 –> 00:22:26,000
tug and pull.
Yeah, that’s true.

434
00:22:26,080 –> 00:22:30,240
Yeah, the that actually comes up
in Has anyone seen Civil War,

435
00:22:30,640 –> 00:22:32,600
the Civil War movement that just
came out?

436
00:22:32,960 –> 00:22:34,680
That’s one of the first things
they bring up.

437
00:22:34,680 –> 00:22:38,240
They’re talking to President
fucking Parks and Recs.

438
00:22:38,240 –> 00:22:41,720
I forget his name, but they’re
like, do you regret disbanding

439
00:22:41,720 –> 00:22:43,480
the FBI?
It’s like, oh, is that what’s

440
00:22:43,480 –> 00:22:45,160
going to happen if we disband
the FBI?

441
00:22:45,160 –> 00:22:48,080
Probably, yeah.
I mean, I get that we need

442
00:22:48,240 –> 00:22:50,840
intelligence agencies.
I guess we need police.

443
00:22:51,280 –> 00:22:55,320
I’m not saying that.
I’m not saying that at all.

444
00:22:55,320 –> 00:22:57,280
And.
Not the way they’re currently

445
00:22:57,280 –> 00:22:59,040
structured.
Yeah, that’s the thing.

446
00:22:59,080 –> 00:23:02,920
Like it?
I don’t know if FBI, police any

447
00:23:02,920 –> 00:23:05,000
of that shit.
Ciai don’t know if any of that

448
00:23:05,000 –> 00:23:08,640
can be fixed.
Like it needs to be burnt down

449
00:23:08,680 –> 00:23:11,640
and rebuilt.
I think it’s important to have

450
00:23:11,640 –> 00:23:15,440
investigators, but when you
bring these investigators and

451
00:23:15,440 –> 00:23:19,080
put them along with the court
system and just the American

452
00:23:19,080 –> 00:23:23,200
injustice system’s apparatus, it
just turns into so the idea of

453
00:23:23,200 –> 00:23:25,400
like, oh, if there’s a crime
that happens or something

454
00:23:25,400 –> 00:23:28,040
happens to somebody, it’s good
to have people that are on the

455
00:23:28,040 –> 00:23:31,480
scene and investigate it and
figure out what’s going on.

456
00:23:31,800 –> 00:23:34,280
But when you talk about bringing
those people to assemblance of

457
00:23:34,280 –> 00:23:37,160
justice, that’s where it gets
like tricky because it’s like

458
00:23:37,160 –> 00:23:40,080
all these other factors come
into play with the court system

459
00:23:40,080 –> 00:23:42,680
and the prison system and XYZ.
Yeah, for sure.

460
00:23:42,800 –> 00:23:44,880
Let’s talk about another line
from this article.

461
00:23:44,880 –> 00:23:47,760
I swear we’ll talk about this
doctor in a minute, but here

462
00:23:47,760 –> 00:23:49,920
goes.
Quote, with the Internet, you

463
00:23:49,920 –> 00:23:53,600
have this free flow of
information that has taken this

464
00:23:53,600 –> 00:23:57,720
nugget of our history and made
it into this huge, huge entity.

465
00:23:57,800 –> 00:23:59,760
End Quote.
Motherfucker, we are not even

466
00:23:59,760 –> 00:24:04,240
250 years old as a country.
This program ran for a minimum

467
00:24:04,240 –> 00:24:06,840
of 20 years.
So that’s like damn near 10%,

468
00:24:06,840 –> 00:24:08,880
something like that.
It’s not like there aren’t still

469
00:24:08,880 –> 00:24:13,040
people alive involved in this.
Yeah, absolutely.

470
00:24:13,120 –> 00:24:17,680
And there were like precursors
of this that date back to 1945.

471
00:24:17,760 –> 00:24:21,320
And when you couple that with
when this happened, which was

472
00:24:21,320 –> 00:24:24,720
the end of World War 2, which is
a highly pivotal moment in

473
00:24:24,720 –> 00:24:26,960
American history.
I don’t know how you write this

474
00:24:26,960 –> 00:24:31,000
off as a nugget of our history.
This is so fucking important to

475
00:24:31,000 –> 00:24:33,400
our history.
I think that’s this is what we

476
00:24:33,400 –> 00:24:35,760
were as a country after World
War 2.

477
00:24:35,760 –> 00:24:40,680
We were just fucking doing human
experiments on people and seeing

478
00:24:40,840 –> 00:24:42,800
what worked.
That’s our history.

479
00:24:42,920 –> 00:24:46,280
And that’s the fact that they
even used like a government

480
00:24:46,280 –> 00:24:48,680
source is also very telling in
the article.

481
00:24:48,800 –> 00:24:51,760
Because this notion that oh,
using that the government source

482
00:24:51,760 –> 00:24:54,080
because they’re an expert and
they’re going to be like

483
00:24:54,120 –> 00:24:57,520
unbiased, like as if they have
no incentive to give a certain

484
00:24:57,520 –> 00:25:01,280
narrative or give a certain
story is like just frustrating

485
00:25:01,400 –> 00:25:03,000
on from a journalistic
standpoint.

486
00:25:03,080 –> 00:25:06,280
Yeah, no, This is why we need to
protect independent journalism.

487
00:25:06,280 –> 00:25:11,440
Then we are.
Yeah, I get really frustrated

488
00:25:11,440 –> 00:25:14,680
when with any kind of government
scandal, anything.

489
00:25:14,720 –> 00:25:19,480
A good example is Joe Biden.
There was a Parkinson’s Dr. that

490
00:25:19,680 –> 00:25:23,320
visited the White House like
every month for the past year.

491
00:25:23,400 –> 00:25:27,080
And a lot of people rightfully
asked, well, does Joe Biden have

492
00:25:27,080 –> 00:25:28,480
Parkinson’s?
What’s that about?

493
00:25:29,000 –> 00:25:32,080
And the White House issued this
thing and was like, no, we just

494
00:25:32,080 –> 00:25:36,120
had an event every month that
required this Parkinson’s Dr. to

495
00:25:36,120 –> 00:25:38,800
be there.
And it’s like, cool cover story.

496
00:25:39,000 –> 00:25:41,120
Who’s going to ask the follow up
questions?

497
00:25:41,320 –> 00:25:46,120
No one like that is what people
consider debunking something is

498
00:25:46,120 –> 00:25:48,000
asking.
Well, hey, government, did you

499
00:25:48,000 –> 00:25:49,640
do this?
And the government says no.

500
00:25:49,640 –> 00:25:52,040
And they’re like, see, this is
fake news.

501
00:25:52,200 –> 00:25:54,520
It’s like, the government’s not
going to say yes.

502
00:25:55,160 –> 00:25:58,680
When is anyone suspected of
anything going to just be like,

503
00:25:58,920 –> 00:26:00,960
oh, you got me, you fucking got
me.

504
00:26:00,960 –> 00:26:02,920
I did it.
But that’s how so many

505
00:26:02,920 –> 00:26:06,320
mainstream outlets work now.
They function based on their

506
00:26:06,320 –> 00:26:08,760
access to the government, and
that’s not how that should work.

507
00:26:08,760 –> 00:26:11,280
Yeah, knowledge production and
knowledge production is really

508
00:26:11,280 –> 00:26:13,080
big.
I think Foucault has a quote

509
00:26:13,080 –> 00:26:15,320
about how like now the
production of knowledge isn’t

510
00:26:15,320 –> 00:26:17,520
removed from power.
So it’s like the idea that

511
00:26:17,560 –> 00:26:20,680
knowledge is here and power is
here, and like somehow in the

512
00:26:20,680 –> 00:26:23,600
middle is like where where it’s
like no knowledge comes from

513
00:26:23,600 –> 00:26:25,960
power.
The notion of, oh, having a

514
00:26:25,960 –> 00:26:28,760
quote or a source, and is that
source credible?

515
00:26:28,840 –> 00:26:32,120
How many even just the notion of
like articles as well, academic

516
00:26:32,120 –> 00:26:35,080
or scientific articles and about
how just knowledge is produced

517
00:26:35,080 –> 00:26:37,320
in general is not removed from
power.

518
00:26:37,440 –> 00:26:40,480
And oftentimes knowledge
reinforces power and reinforces

519
00:26:40,480 –> 00:26:43,000
power relations within, you
know, whatever you’re talking

520
00:26:43,000 –> 00:26:44,600
about.
Yeah, absolutely.

521
00:26:44,600 –> 00:26:47,920
And that kind of brings me to
not the last line, but one of

522
00:26:47,920 –> 00:26:50,040
the last lines from this article
I want to talk about.

523
00:26:50,040 –> 00:26:54,520
This is a thing you hear every
time a conspiracy expert pops up

524
00:26:54,520 –> 00:26:56,240
to talk about a conspiracy
theory.

525
00:26:56,640 –> 00:26:59,000
You hear some variation of this.
This is a quote.

526
00:26:59,080 –> 00:27:02,840
Conspiracies allow us to make
sense of the inexplicable in a

527
00:27:02,840 –> 00:27:05,680
world that’s too complicated
already.

528
00:27:05,960 –> 00:27:09,080
End Quote.
You hear that all the time, as

529
00:27:09,080 –> 00:27:13,960
if people are just grasping for
straws as opposed to just

530
00:27:13,960 –> 00:27:16,440
looking for answers from the
government.

531
00:27:16,520 –> 00:27:19,680
I mean, I think that applies to
a lot of conspiracies.

532
00:27:19,840 –> 00:27:21,720
Definitely not this one.
Right.

533
00:27:21,840 –> 00:27:26,160
Yeah, it’s a case by case thing.
And when you get these experts

534
00:27:26,160 –> 00:27:29,920
who just broadly say, Oh yeah,
any conspiracy theory, it’s just

535
00:27:29,920 –> 00:27:33,240
people looking for answers to
the fucked up universe.

536
00:27:33,360 –> 00:27:36,160
It’s like now sometimes people
just want answers that are

537
00:27:36,160 –> 00:27:39,600
available from the government.
And the example I put in the

538
00:27:39,600 –> 00:27:44,560
notes is Saudi Arabians
involvement in 9/11, like the

539
00:27:44,560 –> 00:27:49,400
families forever have been
trying to sue Saudi Arabia, or

540
00:27:49,400 –> 00:27:53,320
at least ask Saudi Arabia what
their actual involvement was.

541
00:27:53,400 –> 00:27:56,400
And they keep getting
stonewalled by the American

542
00:27:56,800 –> 00:28:00,360
government.
The Bin Laden family we know was

543
00:28:00,360 –> 00:28:04,600
allowed to fly out of the United
States at a point when the skies

544
00:28:04,600 –> 00:28:08,840
were locked the fuck down.
Are those 911 families crazy?

545
00:28:08,960 –> 00:28:12,560
Are they looking for answers in
a complicated world that doesn’t

546
00:28:12,560 –> 00:28:14,920
make sense?
No, they want the truth from the

547
00:28:14,920 –> 00:28:18,520
fucking government and I think
one of the most effective.

548
00:28:18,680 –> 00:28:22,400
I don’t know who started it, but
the most effective thing the

549
00:28:22,400 –> 00:28:26,840
government ever did in shutting
down dissent, in my opinion, is

550
00:28:26,960 –> 00:28:30,080
the phrase conspiracy theory.
Like once you attach that to a

551
00:28:30,080 –> 00:28:34,000
story, it puts such a stink on
it to where, oh, you’re one of

552
00:28:34,000 –> 00:28:37,280
those tinfoil hat motherfucker
sitting in your mom’s basement

553
00:28:37,360 –> 00:28:39,600
typing on your blog.
And it’s like, motherfucker, no

554
00:28:39,600 –> 00:28:42,600
one has blogs anymore.
But it just makes it so they

555
00:28:42,600 –> 00:28:45,480
never really.
Have our critical discussion

556
00:28:45,480 –> 00:28:48,120
anymore?
Yeah, it’s just immediately, Oh,

557
00:28:48,120 –> 00:28:49,200
you’re questioning the
government?

558
00:28:49,200 –> 00:28:50,520
Well, you’re a conspiracy
theorist.

559
00:28:50,720 –> 00:28:53,200
It’s like, Nope, that’s not
actually how that works.

560
00:28:53,400 –> 00:28:56,120
You’re supposed to question the
government and all, right, Last

561
00:28:56,120 –> 00:28:59,480
line from this article.
Here’s the last quote before we

562
00:28:59,480 –> 00:29:03,080
talk about you and Cameron.
However, MK Ultra is also the

563
00:29:03,080 –> 00:29:06,560
Canary for something all too
apparent about the present, when

564
00:29:06,560 –> 00:29:09,720
it’s easier to blame a
conspiracy about mind control

565
00:29:09,720 –> 00:29:12,920
than it is to face our political
differences and something is

566
00:29:12,920 –> 00:29:14,560
very wrong.
End Quote.

567
00:29:14,560 –> 00:29:18,000
How the fuck did we get there
from Cardi B?

568
00:29:18,640 –> 00:29:22,720
Yeah I don’t like no one was
questioning political

569
00:29:22,720 –> 00:29:25,400
differences or anything.
They were just like why is Cardi

570
00:29:25,400 –> 00:29:27,640
BS face like that?
And now at the end, we’re

571
00:29:27,640 –> 00:29:30,200
getting admonished for like,
blaming.

572
00:29:30,200 –> 00:29:32,640
Authorization.
Yeah, it’s crazy.

573
00:29:33,160 –> 00:29:36,120
All right, let’s talk about
Doctor Donald U and Cameron.

574
00:29:36,120 –> 00:29:40,880
I’ve done MK Ultra episodes
before and we talked about this

575
00:29:40,880 –> 00:29:44,400
guy a little bit, but he
deserves a little more

576
00:29:44,520 –> 00:29:46,400
attention.
And I think the reason he

577
00:29:46,400 –> 00:29:49,800
deserves more attention is if
you’re one of these people who’s

578
00:29:49,800 –> 00:29:52,000
like, oh, MK Ultra, it’s a
conspiracy theory.

579
00:29:52,280 –> 00:29:55,560
Just look into this guy.
There’s still articles being

580
00:29:55,560 –> 00:30:00,040
written about this guy and the
actual real world things he did

581
00:30:00,040 –> 00:30:03,840
and the damage he caused.
It’s not a fucking conspiracy

582
00:30:03,840 –> 00:30:07,720
theory, it’s just something that
happened and this article that

583
00:30:07,720 –> 00:30:10,480
got me so riled up.
One of the things they talk

584
00:30:10,480 –> 00:30:13,280
about is how crazy it is that
we’re still talking about MK

585
00:30:13,280 –> 00:30:17,360
Ultra in this article was 2019.
It’s like, I think it’s crazy

586
00:30:17,360 –> 00:30:18,760
that we don’t talk about it
more.

587
00:30:18,840 –> 00:30:23,880
It’s it’s such a big deal.
And Doctor Ewan, I mean, I hate

588
00:30:23,880 –> 00:30:27,640
calling him Doctor Ewan Cameron.
He makes for a good counter to

589
00:30:27,640 –> 00:30:31,320
the idea that MK Ultra was some
kind of blip on the radar.

590
00:30:31,440 –> 00:30:36,080
America always gets the credit
for MK Ultra, but it was

591
00:30:36,080 –> 00:30:39,120
actually kind of a joint thing
between US and Canada.

592
00:30:39,240 –> 00:30:42,080
And a lot of the stuff happened
in Canada, which is crazy

593
00:30:42,080 –> 00:30:45,280
because Canadians are so nice.
And while the American

594
00:30:45,280 –> 00:30:49,680
government has never really had
to answer for MK Ultra in any

595
00:30:49,680 –> 00:30:52,280
way, Canada has.
There have been a shit ton of

596
00:30:52,280 –> 00:30:55,800
lawsuits filed there, and a lot
of those have to do with Doctor

597
00:30:55,800 –> 00:30:57,800
Cameron.
So let’s talk about this fuck

598
00:30:57,800 –> 00:30:59,760
face.
He was born in Scotland.

599
00:30:59,800 –> 00:31:02,960
He was educated in Scotland,
moved around a bunch between the

600
00:31:03,120 –> 00:31:07,400
US, Europe and Canada.
He was known to dabble in

601
00:31:07,400 –> 00:31:10,800
outlandish experiments even
before the CIA signed him.

602
00:31:10,880 –> 00:31:15,280
Case in point, in 1934 he
published a study where to test

603
00:31:15,280 –> 00:31:18,640
the effects of body temperature,
he would put a person in a room

604
00:31:18,760 –> 00:31:23,120
that was heated to 107° for an
hour and then would just toss

605
00:31:23,120 –> 00:31:26,600
them in cold water and see if
that cured their schizophrenia.

606
00:31:27,200 –> 00:31:31,160
Medicine used to be so wild.
There’s so many examples of shit

607
00:31:31,160 –> 00:31:34,240
like this and of course it did
nothing to cure their

608
00:31:34,440 –> 00:31:37,440
schizophrenia.
This is why I’m a coach, not a

609
00:31:37,440 –> 00:31:41,320
therapist right here.
That’s just my day job.

610
00:31:41,320 –> 00:31:42,920
It doesn’t matter for this, but
This is why.

611
00:31:43,760 –> 00:31:46,600
You’ve never tried this on
anyone to see if it gets their

612
00:31:46,640 –> 00:31:48,080
project going?
Yeah, yeah.

613
00:31:48,080 –> 00:31:50,360
See if it helps them reach their
personal goals.

614
00:31:50,760 –> 00:31:54,040
Yeah, I should give it a shot.
Yeah, sounds great.

615
00:31:54,240 –> 00:31:56,480
Sounds like something they would
I would definitely not get sued

616
00:31:56,480 –> 00:32:01,200
for as someone with fewer legal
protections than a therapist.

617
00:32:01,320 –> 00:32:04,040
He also did an experiment where
he tested the effects of

618
00:32:04,040 –> 00:32:08,160
dehydration on people with
epilepsy by not giving them

619
00:32:08,160 –> 00:32:09,080
water.
It’s like that.

620
00:32:09,560 –> 00:32:11,800
What is that supposed to do for
someone’s epilepsy?

621
00:32:11,800 –> 00:32:15,920
Man, that’s crazy.
And it didn’t do anything to

622
00:32:16,000 –> 00:32:18,080
reduce epilepsy.
People just started like

623
00:32:18,080 –> 00:32:20,720
stealing food and drinks from
other people who weren’t being

624
00:32:20,720 –> 00:32:23,080
experimented on.
They were drinking out of flour

625
00:32:23,080 –> 00:32:25,760
vases, eating snow from window
sills.

626
00:32:25,840 –> 00:32:29,120
And also everyone experienced
severe weight loss and acidosis

627
00:32:29,120 –> 00:32:32,160
in one patient died.
So of course, we might bring

628
00:32:32,160 –> 00:32:35,160
this guy in to help with our
government ship.

629
00:32:35,320 –> 00:32:38,680
And what’s interesting is a lot
of this kind of mirrors what

630
00:32:38,720 –> 00:32:41,800
Nazis were doing almost at the
same time.

631
00:32:41,800 –> 00:32:45,600
Like they had experiments where
they would just throw people out

632
00:32:45,720 –> 00:32:48,000
in cold weather to see what
happened.

633
00:32:48,120 –> 00:32:50,600
They also did experiments where
they would deprive people of

634
00:32:50,600 –> 00:32:54,800
water just to see what happened.
So this guy is kind of a good

635
00:32:54,800 –> 00:32:56,680
fit.
For there’s a reason that they

636
00:32:56,960 –> 00:33:00,160
targeted disabled people, yeah.
Yeah, it’s mostly people who

637
00:33:00,160 –> 00:33:04,320
couldn’t fight back is who got
targeted here.

638
00:33:04,440 –> 00:33:09,880
And so in 1943, he settles in
Montreal at McGill University.

639
00:33:09,920 –> 00:33:14,120
And that’s where we get this
supervillain origin story

640
00:33:14,280 –> 00:33:16,000
sounding detail.
Here’s a quote.

641
00:33:16,200 –> 00:33:19,960
In 1943, Cameron set up his
research laboratory, known as

642
00:33:19,960 –> 00:33:24,360
the Allen Memorial Institute, in
Ravenstrag, a mansion that

643
00:33:24,360 –> 00:33:26,720
formerly belonged to Sir Hugh
Allen.

644
00:33:26,800 –> 00:33:28,840
End Quote.
So he’s doing this shit in like

645
00:33:28,840 –> 00:33:32,120
a castle or something.
I like that part’s interesting,

646
00:33:32,240 –> 00:33:35,800
but given the similarities
between his work, like I said,

647
00:33:35,800 –> 00:33:39,600
it’s only right that he was
involved in MK Ultra.

648
00:33:39,680 –> 00:33:44,480
But he was also sent to the
Nuremberg trials to figure out

649
00:33:44,480 –> 00:33:49,440
why Rudolf Hess especially was
so fanatical about Hitler.

650
00:33:49,480 –> 00:33:52,440
And unlike most of the people
who were involved in the

651
00:33:52,440 –> 00:33:55,680
Nuremberg trials who came out
the other end like holy shit, we

652
00:33:55,920 –> 00:33:58,680
better never do that again, this
motherfucker just came out the

653
00:33:58,680 –> 00:34:02,800
other end thinking society
consists of a weak class and a

654
00:34:02,800 –> 00:34:06,080
strong class, and that he was
very concerned about the weak

655
00:34:06,080 –> 00:34:08,760
class reproducing.
It’s like, oh that sounds like

656
00:34:08,760 –> 00:34:11,120
Nazi shit.
Literally so that point of in

657
00:34:11,120 –> 00:34:14,679
reading about him and reading
about his ideas, he’s describing

658
00:34:14,679 –> 00:34:18,280
himself like when when he talks
about the German population and

659
00:34:18,280 –> 00:34:20,560
about how people are scared and
afraid.

660
00:34:20,560 –> 00:34:23,280
And I don’t know, it feels like
in a lot of his critiques about

661
00:34:23,280 –> 00:34:26,560
German society and the quote UN
quote German race, like he’s

662
00:34:26,560 –> 00:34:29,639
kind of talking about himself
because he sounds like the

663
00:34:29,639 –> 00:34:32,360
paranoid 1 and he sounds like
the one that’s all we have to

664
00:34:32,360 –> 00:34:34,320
like these Germans are going to
kill again.

665
00:34:34,320 –> 00:34:37,159
We have to organize society.
Society is full of dangerous

666
00:34:37,159 –> 00:34:40,400
people and we have to get these
weak and dangerous people out of

667
00:34:40,400 –> 00:34:43,080
society.
Like it just so much mirrors the

668
00:34:43,080 –> 00:34:46,760
very thing that he’s, you know,
set up purporting to go against.

669
00:34:47,040 –> 00:34:51,199
But you can see his own anxiety
and paranoia within, like his

670
00:34:51,639 –> 00:34:54,719
railing against weaker
populations or weaker people’s.

671
00:34:54,800 –> 00:34:56,840
Yeah.
And it is such a projection

672
00:34:56,840 –> 00:34:59,080
because he knows what he’s
capable of doing.

673
00:34:59,080 –> 00:35:02,080
To quote UN quote weaker people,
he’s going to assume the rest of

674
00:35:02,080 –> 00:35:04,320
the world is that way.
Yeah, because he’d already been

675
00:35:04,320 –> 00:35:07,360
doing it before that.
Those experiments I just

676
00:35:07,360 –> 00:35:11,480
described, those were way before
he signs on with the CIA.

677
00:35:11,520 –> 00:35:16,080
But the CIA, actually, when they
first caught wind of what he was

678
00:35:16,080 –> 00:35:19,880
doing, they were at McGill
University to look into the work

679
00:35:19,920 –> 00:35:23,960
of a colleague of his guy named
Doctor Donald Olding Hebb.

680
00:35:24,600 –> 00:35:29,280
And this guy also conducted
psychological experiments on

681
00:35:29,280 –> 00:35:33,560
people, but he used willing
participants and paid them.

682
00:35:33,680 –> 00:35:36,960
And I imagine the CIA was like,
well, that’s fucking boring,

683
00:35:37,000 –> 00:35:41,400
what else do we got?
And that’s when they landed on

684
00:35:41,520 –> 00:35:45,560
Ewan Cameron.
He was a colleague of Doctor

685
00:35:45,560 –> 00:35:50,520
Hebb, but he took Doctor Hubbs
work in a way more extreme

686
00:35:50,640 –> 00:35:54,280
direction where he was forcing
people to take part in these

687
00:35:54,280 –> 00:35:56,320
experiments without them
knowing.

688
00:35:56,520 –> 00:35:59,880
And the CIA being the CIA, they
were like that.

689
00:35:59,960 –> 00:36:01,880
We want that.
We want that one, not the

690
00:36:01,880 –> 00:36:04,600
fucking consent.
Get the fuck out of here or the

691
00:36:04,600 –> 00:36:06,920
CIA.
The review board, what?

692
00:36:06,920 –> 00:36:12,240
Nah, we don’t need that.
And the most any of Doctor Hebs

693
00:36:12,240 –> 00:36:16,080
patients lasted under sensory
deprivation because that’s what

694
00:36:16,080 –> 00:36:18,840
he would do.
Doctor Hebb would just basically

695
00:36:18,840 –> 00:36:21,720
strap you to a table, put
goggles on you so you couldn’t

696
00:36:21,720 –> 00:36:24,640
hear anything, see anything, and
would just see how long you

697
00:36:24,640 –> 00:36:27,320
lasted.
And even that drove people

698
00:36:27,560 –> 00:36:29,480
crazy.
By the end of these experiments,

699
00:36:29,480 –> 00:36:32,720
people are hallucinating and
shit, but the longest he ever

700
00:36:32,720 –> 00:36:36,520
kept anyone under was six days.
Doctor Cameron was keeping

701
00:36:36,520 –> 00:36:41,400
people under for up to 35 days
at a time.

702
00:36:41,560 –> 00:36:46,960
That was his whole fucking thing
is people would show up at this.

703
00:36:47,160 –> 00:36:50,120
It was called the Allen
Institute, named after the

704
00:36:50,280 –> 00:36:53,360
fucking former castle owner
where he operated out of.

705
00:36:53,480 –> 00:36:57,280
People would show up for like
postpartum depression, anxiety,

706
00:36:57,280 –> 00:37:00,520
like really basic shit, and
they’d end up getting this.

707
00:37:00,520 –> 00:37:03,880
Like they would get put into a
medically induced coma and

708
00:37:03,880 –> 00:37:08,600
fucking experimented on and that
carried on for fucking decades.

709
00:37:09,000 –> 00:37:11,640
Say it still carries on in our
prison system, Yeah.

710
00:37:11,880 –> 00:37:14,040
That is true.
The population of people in

711
00:37:14,040 –> 00:37:17,520
prison who are there because
they’re in need of some mental

712
00:37:17,520 –> 00:37:19,080
health care.
Yes, that’s.

713
00:37:19,960 –> 00:37:21,400
I mean, that’s solitary
confinement.

714
00:37:21,400 –> 00:37:22,840
You’re describing solitary
confinement.

715
00:37:23,160 –> 00:37:26,920
Right, right.
But with Doctor Cameron, he

716
00:37:26,920 –> 00:37:29,320
would do that.
Like, he would put people under,

717
00:37:29,400 –> 00:37:32,960
but he would also like, make
suggestions.

718
00:37:32,960 –> 00:37:35,520
He would play recordings.
He was literally trying to

719
00:37:35,600 –> 00:37:39,080
reprogram people.
And so three years after MK

720
00:37:39,080 –> 00:37:42,480
Ultra was founded, the CIA
approached Dr. Cameron through

721
00:37:42,480 –> 00:37:45,680
an outfit called the Society for
the Investigation of Human

722
00:37:45,720 –> 00:37:49,800
Ecology, which is just ACIA
front for fucking who knows

723
00:37:49,800 –> 00:37:51,960
what.
But they used that to funnel

724
00:37:52,040 –> 00:37:54,720
money to people conducting the
kind of research they were

725
00:37:54,720 –> 00:37:57,480
interested in.
And they allegedly encouraged

726
00:37:57,480 –> 00:38:00,120
him to apply for this grant.
He applies for it.

727
00:38:00,120 –> 00:38:03,680
He immediately gets it.
It’s 6, $50,000, which is

728
00:38:03,720 –> 00:38:08,840
equivalent to just under 690,000
in today’s money.

729
00:38:08,920 –> 00:38:12,360
And what he was doing to people,
there were kind of two aspects

730
00:38:12,360 –> 00:38:15,160
of it.
It was depatterning was what he

731
00:38:15,160 –> 00:38:17,680
called it.
And that means your brain is

732
00:38:17,680 –> 00:38:21,680
just a blank slate that the
person experimenting on you can

733
00:38:21,680 –> 00:38:24,680
rebuild in whatever way they see
fit.

734
00:38:24,760 –> 00:38:29,280
And I think this part’s
important for people who believe

735
00:38:29,280 –> 00:38:33,400
the idea that MK Ultra ended
because there were no results.

736
00:38:33,520 –> 00:38:37,480
This guy was getting results,
and there is decades and decades

737
00:38:37,480 –> 00:38:41,520
of lawsuits that prove it.
At least this part he was really

738
00:38:41,520 –> 00:38:44,960
good at.
He could wipe a person’s brain

739
00:38:45,080 –> 00:38:48,080
clean to the point that they
just forget who they are.

740
00:38:48,200 –> 00:38:52,960
And the way he would do it first
he would put people in a drug

741
00:38:52,960 –> 00:38:57,280
induced coma and the drugs he
would use were like anything

742
00:38:57,280 –> 00:38:59,880
from like Thorazine to stuff
you’d see in hospitals.

743
00:39:00,000 –> 00:39:03,760
LSDI don’t know how you fucking
put a person in a coma with LSD.

744
00:39:03,840 –> 00:39:07,720
That does not track.
Also they mentioned PCP at one

745
00:39:07,720 –> 00:39:10,080
point, I wonder that one.
Sounds like the opposite of a

746
00:39:10,080 –> 00:39:12,120
coma, but.
Yeah, I don’t know that either.

747
00:39:12,120 –> 00:39:15,200
Those both seem very stimulant
like to me.

748
00:39:15,240 –> 00:39:20,120
But after this drug induced coma
which would last for 10 days or

749
00:39:20,120 –> 00:39:23,440
more, then he would do
electroconvulsive shock therapy

750
00:39:23,480 –> 00:39:28,000
in way higher amounts than.
Yeah, that has been proven to

751
00:39:28,000 –> 00:39:29,640
affect short term memory.
Yeah.

752
00:39:29,840 –> 00:39:34,200
And with that, you would be
like, after enough of that, your

753
00:39:34,200 –> 00:39:38,000
brain is just like, blank.
Like you forget there’s stories

754
00:39:38,000 –> 00:39:39,480
we’ll talk about.
There’s a woman who forgot how

755
00:39:39,480 –> 00:39:43,240
to boil water because of this.
It’s really fundamentally

756
00:39:43,240 –> 00:39:47,040
changing people.
And so the part where the CIA

757
00:39:47,040 –> 00:39:50,280
stopped because they didn’t get
any results, Here’s what Doctor

758
00:39:50,280 –> 00:39:54,360
Cameron said in a 1961 paper for
the Canadian Psychiatric

759
00:39:54,440 –> 00:39:57,880
Association Journal about what
he learned from his work over

760
00:39:57,880 –> 00:39:59,720
the years.
This is a little long, sorry.

761
00:39:59,840 –> 00:40:03,840
One, the key component of the
psychic driving theory, verbal

762
00:40:03,840 –> 00:40:07,040
signals lead to changes in
behavior 2.

763
00:40:07,120 –> 00:40:10,160
These statements can be set up
by the experimenter 3.

764
00:40:10,640 –> 00:40:14,640
A patient’s personality set can
be temporarily broken up by

765
00:40:14,640 –> 00:40:18,800
means such as induced sleep and
electroshock therapy 4

766
00:40:18,880 –> 00:40:21,800
Personality changes are more
effectively induced when

767
00:40:21,800 –> 00:40:25,720
targeting a dormant behavioral
pattern 5 repeated verbal

768
00:40:25,720 –> 00:40:29,760
signals can cause physiological
changes as well as psychological

769
00:40:29,760 –> 00:40:34,760
ones such as the flexor extensor
dominance of forearm muscles and

770
00:40:34,760 –> 00:40:36,640
six.
These methods are more effective

771
00:40:36,640 –> 00:40:40,640
when follow up psychic driving
sessions are provided for weeks

772
00:40:40,720 –> 00:40:43,080
or months after the initial
procedure.

773
00:40:43,120 –> 00:40:45,280
So it sounds like he was getting
some shit done to me.

774
00:40:45,640 –> 00:40:48,560
And a lot of the shit that he
was getting done sounds very

775
00:40:48,560 –> 00:40:51,600
similar to what cults do we were
talking about.

776
00:40:51,600 –> 00:40:55,040
So we kind of know.
I find it interesting, though,

777
00:40:55,040 –> 00:40:58,880
like, he was the head of a lot
of these different psychological

778
00:40:58,880 –> 00:41:02,200
associations, which goes back to
the idea about, like, knowledge

779
00:41:02,200 –> 00:41:04,280
and power.
And this is like, yeah, it

780
00:41:04,280 –> 00:41:07,760
doesn’t seem that it’s not that
hard to break a human psyche.

781
00:41:08,080 –> 00:41:11,000
Like, it’s not that hard.
Like he’s just kind of always

782
00:41:11,000 –> 00:41:14,640
just got to drug you up and
sequester you for days on end.

783
00:41:15,000 –> 00:41:16,720
Like, yeah, I don’t think it
would be that difficult.

784
00:41:17,160 –> 00:41:20,000
No, and Jordan Peterson did it
to himself.

785
00:41:20,000 –> 00:41:23,320
Willingly.
I mean, it’s not hard to break a

786
00:41:23,320 –> 00:41:25,720
person.
His his psyche isn’t that hard

787
00:41:25,720 –> 00:41:30,200
to break, but.
No, no, it it it probably wasn’t

788
00:41:30,200 –> 00:41:32,640
great before the self induced
coma.

789
00:41:32,840 –> 00:41:36,720
Yeah, he was doing all of this
under the guise of treating

790
00:41:36,840 –> 00:41:40,320
schizophrenia.
And that part seemed like it

791
00:41:40,320 –> 00:41:44,080
sort of worked, but only because
the people like also forgot they

792
00:41:44,080 –> 00:41:47,160
were fucking schizophrenic.
Like it just eliminated that

793
00:41:47,160 –> 00:41:47,800
part.
So it’s.

794
00:41:47,880 –> 00:41:49,920
I’m sure it behaves.
But it’s so much worse.

795
00:41:50,480 –> 00:41:52,880
And I’m sure that they still
experienced hallucinations in

796
00:41:52,880 –> 00:41:54,600
some form.
Yeah, I’m sure.

797
00:41:54,680 –> 00:42:00,280
And the idea that Doctor Cameron
knew he was being funded by the

798
00:42:00,280 –> 00:42:04,040
CIA is still kind of open for
debate.

799
00:42:04,160 –> 00:42:07,400
But I also don’t think it
matters that much.

800
00:42:07,400 –> 00:42:10,840
Like it seemed the CIA wasn’t
important to him, he was more so

801
00:42:10,840 –> 00:42:13,000
focused on his research so he
would have took money from

802
00:42:13,000 –> 00:42:14,480
anyone.
Yeah, yeah.

803
00:42:14,480 –> 00:42:17,240
I agree with that.
And this is a quote from one of

804
00:42:17,440 –> 00:42:21,080
Doctor Cameron’s patients.
We hanged Nazis for doing the

805
00:42:21,080 –> 00:42:23,880
sort of things Cameron did.
End Quote.

806
00:42:23,920 –> 00:42:26,080
And that’s true.
That is absolutely true.

807
00:42:26,200 –> 00:42:30,120
And yeah, Dante, you just
mentioned the associations he

808
00:42:30,120 –> 00:42:32,560
was the head of.
Let’s run through some of them.

809
00:42:33,280 –> 00:42:37,080
The American Psychiatric
Association, the Canadian

810
00:42:37,080 –> 00:42:41,680
Psychiatric Association, the
American Psychopathological

811
00:42:41,680 –> 00:42:46,400
Association, the Society of
Biological Psychiatry, and the

812
00:42:46,400 –> 00:42:50,160
World Psychiatric Association.
This is a prominent fucking

813
00:42:50,160 –> 00:42:55,400
doctor in psychiatry and he was
an MK Ultra doctor too.

814
00:42:55,400 –> 00:42:58,920
That’s the only like when
Scientology always talks about

815
00:42:58,960 –> 00:43:02,000
their aversion to mental health
treatment.

816
00:43:02,080 –> 00:43:05,640
I wonder if it’s coming from
this and because L.

817
00:43:05,680 –> 00:43:07,800
Ronald because they’ve also
tried to infiltrate the

818
00:43:07,800 –> 00:43:11,640
government and L Ron Hubbard did
need psychological treatment.

819
00:43:11,960 –> 00:43:17,040
He sure did, but I think that’s
also I think that actually is

820
00:43:17,040 –> 00:43:20,280
more why Scientology is so anti
mental health.

821
00:43:20,440 –> 00:43:22,400
I think he just had a fucking
bone to pick.

822
00:43:22,640 –> 00:43:25,520
I think it’s important to know
there’s a book that I’m

823
00:43:25,920 –> 00:43:27,520
currently reading, but I got to
finish it.

824
00:43:27,520 –> 00:43:30,840
Madness and Civilization and
Foucault talks a lot about how

825
00:43:31,040 –> 00:43:34,160
the notion of curing people that
have mental health issues for a

826
00:43:34,160 –> 00:43:37,320
long time in society, like for
human history, people have had

827
00:43:37,320 –> 00:43:39,480
like mental health issues.
And of course, the direction

828
00:43:39,480 –> 00:43:42,160
mental health issues take is
very dependent on, you know,

829
00:43:42,160 –> 00:43:44,840
that society and like the
insurance and outs of it, but

830
00:43:44,840 –> 00:43:47,560
like kind of seeing it as though
this is just a these people are

831
00:43:47,560 –> 00:43:51,640
just a part of society, But
especially in Europe around post

832
00:43:51,640 –> 00:43:54,320
enlightenment and you get this
sort of scientific

833
00:43:54,320 –> 00:43:58,160
medicalization of it to now like
we have to treat people and it’s

834
00:43:58,160 –> 00:44:00,880
like the it’s always under the
guise of helping.

835
00:44:00,920 –> 00:44:04,640
So doing these experiments,
literally torturing people, and

836
00:44:04,640 –> 00:44:07,240
even when we think today about
shit like conversion therapy,

837
00:44:07,480 –> 00:44:10,600
it’s always under the guise of
helping or under the guise of

838
00:44:10,600 –> 00:44:12,240
therapy.
But I think it’s really

839
00:44:12,240 –> 00:44:15,760
important to look into the roots
of like therapy or treatment and

840
00:44:15,760 –> 00:44:18,760
see like the darkness that’s
there of like, what when you say

841
00:44:18,760 –> 00:44:21,360
helping, who are you helping?
How is it helping?

842
00:44:21,440 –> 00:44:24,040
And I all that to say, I think
it’s, I think it’s reasonable to

843
00:44:24,040 –> 00:44:27,680
have a suspicion of like just
the mainstream mental health

844
00:44:28,160 –> 00:44:30,600
discourse just because of a lot
of these figures.

845
00:44:30,600 –> 00:44:33,280
I’m sure he wasn’t the only
doctor that thought that or that

846
00:44:33,280 –> 00:44:36,480
had these ideas about the weak
and the strong, and I’m sure it

847
00:44:36,480 –> 00:44:39,160
was the the practice across the
board for a lot of these

848
00:44:39,160 –> 00:44:42,000
doctors.
Yeah, that’s actually one of the

849
00:44:42,440 –> 00:44:47,080
defenses people make for this
guy is, yeah, this all sounds

850
00:44:47,080 –> 00:44:51,440
crazy, but that was kind of just
medicine in the 30s and 40s.

851
00:44:51,440 –> 00:44:54,640
Like a lot of people were doing
these crazy ass experiments.

852
00:44:54,760 –> 00:44:58,520
And I mean, that’s a valid
point, but also fucking don’t

853
00:44:58,520 –> 00:45:00,080
get caught.
He got caught.

854
00:45:01,080 –> 00:45:04,920
Also, the idea of curing people
of these chronic issues that we

855
00:45:05,200 –> 00:45:09,120
truly know nothing about.
Even now we barely scratched the

856
00:45:09,120 –> 00:45:13,280
surface of what causes them.
So the idea of curing instead of

857
00:45:13,280 –> 00:45:18,120
just supporting people in
whatever they need is still

858
00:45:18,120 –> 00:45:21,160
prevalent.
And still kind of the idea of

859
00:45:21,160 –> 00:45:22,600
relying on behaviorism.
I don’t know.

860
00:45:22,600 –> 00:45:25,800
There are a lot of problems that
persist because of this history.

861
00:45:26,320 –> 00:45:29,240
Well, the notion of healthy,
like the very notion of what is

862
00:45:29,240 –> 00:45:33,760
a healthy body is created
juxtaposed to like demarcating

863
00:45:33,760 –> 00:45:37,040
the insane.
So in order to demarcate healthy

864
00:45:37,120 –> 00:45:39,840
and you have to like, say this
is unhealthy.

865
00:45:40,240 –> 00:45:43,480
So it’s like even in the notion
of treatment, it’s just very

866
00:45:43,480 –> 00:45:46,360
jumble and it’s not as cut and
dry or even quote UN quote

867
00:45:46,360 –> 00:45:48,920
scientific.
It’s really not as scientific as

868
00:45:48,920 –> 00:45:52,560
we would like to believe.
Yeah, it is a very soft science.

869
00:45:52,560 –> 00:45:54,680
Like, that Consent issue is
huge.

870
00:45:55,240 –> 00:45:59,400
Unhealthy and healthy have to be
determined by the patient.

871
00:45:59,800 –> 00:46:01,240
They must be.
Yeah.

872
00:46:01,320 –> 00:46:04,720
And it’s in other areas of
medicine, too, just not as easy.

873
00:46:04,720 –> 00:46:08,720
It doesn’t worm its way in quite
as easily because, you know,

874
00:46:08,960 –> 00:46:12,640
psychology is a soft science.
But like, we still rely on BMI

875
00:46:12,640 –> 00:46:14,560
and shit.
We know that’s bullshit.

876
00:46:14,680 –> 00:46:17,480
Yeah, there’s a lot of junk
science out there.

877
00:46:17,480 –> 00:46:21,880
We are, if we haven’t, I say we
meaning the country, but it’s

878
00:46:21,880 –> 00:46:24,240
also I think just is it Missouri
where it’s happening?

879
00:46:24,240 –> 00:46:28,080
They’re about to execute a guy
over shaking baby syndrome,

880
00:46:28,080 –> 00:46:32,160
which is shaking baby syndrome
is nonsense.

881
00:46:32,160 –> 00:46:35,480
Like not, and I don’t mean that
in that, yeah, shake the shit

882
00:46:35,480 –> 00:46:37,680
out of a baby, they’ll be fine.
No, they won’t.

883
00:46:37,880 –> 00:46:41,000
But if you’ve ever seen that
demonstration, that baby’s head

884
00:46:41,000 –> 00:46:43,840
is fucking flopping back and
forth, it’s a baby.

885
00:46:43,840 –> 00:46:47,800
That head would fucking fly off
if you were shaking a baby that

886
00:46:47,800 –> 00:46:50,720
hard.
So any shaking baby syndrome

887
00:46:50,720 –> 00:46:53,000
case that doesn’t involve neck
injuries.

888
00:46:53,000 –> 00:46:57,440
Also, that person is probably
innocent because there was one

889
00:46:57,440 –> 00:47:02,440
Doctor Who put out this report
that said if you have these

890
00:47:02,440 –> 00:47:05,240
three symptoms, it can only be
shaking baby syndrome.

891
00:47:05,320 –> 00:47:08,120
And meanwhile these symptoms can
be caused by a lack of vitamin

892
00:47:08,120 –> 00:47:10,600
D.
They can be caused from falling

893
00:47:10,680 –> 00:47:13,480
shaking baby syndrome.
The science behind it would have

894
00:47:13,480 –> 00:47:17,760
you believe a child cannot get a
head injury from falling off of

895
00:47:17,880 –> 00:47:21,120
a changing table or a bed.
And it’s like anyone can give a

896
00:47:21,120 –> 00:47:21,720
yeah.
Like it’s.

897
00:47:24,480 –> 00:47:27,520
Nuts.
And so, as you’d expect from

898
00:47:27,520 –> 00:47:31,000
experiments meant to turn people
into a blank slate, there are a

899
00:47:31,000 –> 00:47:35,840
lot of lawsuits over this.
We’ll link to a 1985 Washington

900
00:47:35,840 –> 00:47:39,760
Post article about some of the
victims of Cameron that were

901
00:47:39,760 –> 00:47:41,080
attempting to sue the
government.

902
00:47:41,160 –> 00:47:46,160
That lawsuit was filed in 1980,
and the CIA successfully

903
00:47:46,160 –> 00:47:50,040
stonewalled that until I think
88, when the case was finally

904
00:47:50,040 –> 00:47:55,160
settled for $750,000, that eight
people got to split among them.

905
00:47:55,320 –> 00:47:57,200
Hasn’t even covered therapy for
the rest of their lives.

906
00:47:57,880 –> 00:48:00,720
No, no.
One of the things that really

907
00:48:00,720 –> 00:48:04,920
caught my attention when I
opened this article was the

908
00:48:04,920 –> 00:48:07,600
first name you read, Harvey
Weinstein.

909
00:48:08,000 –> 00:48:09,880
I was like, oh, is it that one?
It’s not.

910
00:48:10,120 –> 00:48:12,760
It’s not.
It’s just the name of a guy

911
00:48:12,760 –> 00:48:17,000
whose father got experimented
on, and his father’s name was

912
00:48:17,000 –> 00:48:19,560
Lewis.
He checked in due to respiratory

913
00:48:19,560 –> 00:48:23,600
and digestive issues caused by
anxiety and was immediately

914
00:48:23,600 –> 00:48:27,280
subjected to depatterning and
psychic driving.

915
00:48:27,360 –> 00:48:32,400
This is a quote from his son who
describes his father as a lost

916
00:48:32,400 –> 00:48:37,000
soul with no social sense.
How to keep clean, how to carry

917
00:48:37,000 –> 00:48:40,480
on a conversation.
They took his self away from

918
00:48:40,480 –> 00:48:41,560
him.
End Quote.

919
00:48:41,680 –> 00:48:43,720
And we’ll link to articles about
it.

920
00:48:43,720 –> 00:48:47,840
That’s every fucking account of
this is oh, I came out the other

921
00:48:47,840 –> 00:48:49,720
end.
Like AI don’t even know who I am

922
00:48:49,840 –> 00:48:51,280
anymore.
Like I know my name, I know my

923
00:48:51,280 –> 00:48:54,640
kids barely.
But beyond that, it really is a

924
00:48:54,640 –> 00:48:57,480
blank slate.
And I think that’s where the

925
00:48:57,480 –> 00:49:00,200
question of oh, the CIA didn’t
get results.

926
00:49:00,280 –> 00:49:02,160
That’s where that question needs
to be asked.

927
00:49:02,160 –> 00:49:05,040
What were these people supposed
to do after this?

928
00:49:05,400 –> 00:49:08,360
I really want to know that part.
Like what results were they

929
00:49:08,360 –> 00:49:11,520
looking for?
Yeah, because they did this for

930
00:49:11,880 –> 00:49:14,720
decades and decades.
They had to be achieving

931
00:49:14,720 –> 00:49:18,520
something, but we’ll never know.
And so the.

932
00:49:18,720 –> 00:49:20,560
Yeah.
There’s also Doctor Mary Morrow.

933
00:49:20,640 –> 00:49:26,120
She approached Cameron for a
fellowship in psychiatry at the

934
00:49:26,120 –> 00:49:28,240
hospital he worked at.
And he was like, Nah, you seem

935
00:49:28,240 –> 00:49:30,120
sick.
We should probably check you in.

936
00:49:30,240 –> 00:49:34,360
She underwent electroshock
treatment for 11 days along with

937
00:49:34,360 –> 00:49:37,720
induced sleep, all of which
resulted in a brain anoxia,

938
00:49:37,720 –> 00:49:40,200
which means not enough oxygen
reaching the brain.

939
00:49:40,440 –> 00:49:43,360
She had to be hospitalized and
for the rest of her life

940
00:49:43,480 –> 00:49:47,800
suffered from prosopagnosia,
which is the inability to

941
00:49:47,800 –> 00:49:49,800
recognize faces.
So that’s crazy.

942
00:49:50,400 –> 00:49:53,680
And yeah, I mean, there’s the
episode’s getting a little long

943
00:49:53,680 –> 00:49:55,800
in the tooth so we don’t have to
go through all these other

944
00:49:55,960 –> 00:49:58,760
examples.
And also it’s they’re all pretty

945
00:49:58,760 –> 00:50:01,360
fucking horrifying.
I don’t want to end this just

946
00:50:01,480 –> 00:50:05,240
listing off graphic details of
people getting abused, but

947
00:50:05,360 –> 00:50:09,760
that’s what this is.
And people are still trying to

948
00:50:09,760 –> 00:50:14,320
get justice for this.
There are still lawsuits making

949
00:50:14,320 –> 00:50:17,720
their way through the court
system right now that are about

950
00:50:17,880 –> 00:50:21,160
MK Ultra.
So don’t let magazine or

951
00:50:21,160 –> 00:50:25,160
Variety, whoever it was tell you
that MK Ultra is a wild

952
00:50:25,160 –> 00:50:26,840
conspiracy theory.
It’s wild.

953
00:50:26,920 –> 00:50:30,960
It’s wild for sure, but that
shit happened and I think that’s

954
00:50:30,960 –> 00:50:32,840
our.
Cardi B is allowed to space out.

955
00:50:33,000 –> 00:50:34,880
It happens.
Happens to everybody.

956
00:50:34,920 –> 00:50:38,080
I space out all the time.
Yeah, me too.

957
00:50:38,400 –> 00:50:42,800
Yeah, that’s it’s such a crazy
idea that also when people are

958
00:50:42,800 –> 00:50:45,560
like, oh, that’s MK Ultra.
How and for what?

959
00:50:45,600 –> 00:50:49,040
MK Ultra was just designed to
make celebrities glitch out on

960
00:50:49,040 –> 00:50:51,480
the red carpet.
That doesn’t make any sense.

961
00:50:51,600 –> 00:50:56,320
But I think that’s our episode.
Do we have any final thoughts on

962
00:50:56,640 –> 00:50:59,200
MK Ultra and Doctor Ewen
Cameron?

963
00:50:59,520 –> 00:51:01,880
He died of a heart attack on a
hike.

964
00:51:02,080 –> 00:51:06,400
Oh, I like that. 6767, yeah.
So he died, Yeah.

965
00:51:06,440 –> 00:51:10,720
I wish he lived longer to face a
little more repercussions from

966
00:51:10,720 –> 00:51:12,840
this A.
Part of me does, and part of me

967
00:51:12,840 –> 00:51:15,960
thinks like he wouldn’t care.
Yeah, I could see that or.

968
00:51:16,040 –> 00:51:17,680
Find a way to justify it.
Yeah.

969
00:51:17,680 –> 00:51:18,080
Yeah.
What?

970
00:51:18,480 –> 00:51:20,960
Repercussions would there really
be because they’re having, I

971
00:51:20,960 –> 00:51:26,320
mean, aside from the American
government paying out $750,000,

972
00:51:26,320 –> 00:51:28,760
which I’m sure almost brought
this country to its knees.

973
00:51:29,920 –> 00:51:33,360
Beyond that, like there’s not
really been any justice for

974
00:51:33,360 –> 00:51:38,200
this, which is fucking nuts.
And calling it a wild conspiracy

975
00:51:38,200 –> 00:51:41,160
theory makes it even less likely
that that justice will ever

976
00:51:41,160 –> 00:51:42,440
happen.
So stop doing it.

977
00:51:42,560 –> 00:51:46,880
And hey, Hana Dante, thank you
both for doing the podcast.

978
00:51:47,000 –> 00:51:50,640
I really appreciate it.
This seems like a great time to

979
00:51:50,640 –> 00:51:53,200
plug shit.
What do we have to plug before

980
00:51:53,200 –> 00:51:56,040
we get out of here?
I have a solo podcast called In

981
00:51:56,040 –> 00:51:58,720
Broad Daylight that you can hear
wherever podcasts are at.

982
00:51:58,840 –> 00:52:00,840
Listen to that.
Dante, what do you got to plug?

983
00:52:00,960 –> 00:52:02,880
I would just say you follow me
on Instagram.

984
00:52:02,880 –> 00:52:05,680
Like I said, I’m an artist.
I release snippets of my music

985
00:52:05,720 –> 00:52:07,680
on Instagram.
If you’re looking for my music,

986
00:52:07,680 –> 00:52:11,720
you can check out my Instagram
Wimbo 14 on Instagram just like

987
00:52:11,720 –> 00:52:13,440
it is in my name tag right
there.

988
00:52:13,840 –> 00:52:16,440
Nice Hannah, what do you got?
Just all my socials.

989
00:52:16,480 –> 00:52:22,120
It’s spelled Han AM ICHELS
because of the family.

990
00:52:22,200 –> 00:52:25,600
Yeah, it’s a mess, but that’s
what it.

991
00:52:26,680 –> 00:52:29,000
All right.
And I think that’s it.

992
00:52:29,000 –> 00:52:31,400
Let’s get the fuck out of here.
Hannah, say goodbye.

993
00:52:31,480 –> 00:52:34,360
Goodbye.
Dante say goodbye.

994
00:52:34,480 –> 00:52:36,960
Farewell, Farewell.
Goodbye everybody, we love you.