Conspiracy! The Show 285: The Assassination of John Lennon

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Welcome to Conspiracy The Show,
the world’s most trusted

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conspiracy theory podcast, with
your host Adam Todd Brown and

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Olivia Hydar.
Hey everybody, welcome to

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Conspiracy the Show.
I’m your host, Adam Todd Brown,

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joining me as Co host this week.
Oh, my favorite Co host of all.

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No Co host, but I do have a
fascinating guest joining us

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this week, David Whelan, author
of Mind Games, the Assassination

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of John Lennon.
David, thank you for joining us.

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Hey, Adam, thanks for having me.
It’s a pleasure.

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Right off the bat, this is a
fantastic book.

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I had never looked into this
theory at all.

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You spent a lot of time on this
three years, right?

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That’s right.
Thank you for those kind words.

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Yes, yes.
Well, four years now because

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Option book came out, More stuff
still coming.

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I’d like to put it to bed, to be
honest with you, Adam.

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But more stuff is emerging all
the time, which is kind of what

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I thought would happen.
Memories are being jogged and

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people are reanalyzing and I
miss stuff.

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You know, I’m not infallible.
So yeah, it’s been very

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interesting.
It’s been an interesting

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journey.
Before we get into the book

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itself and the theory about what
happened to John Lennon, what

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were your feelings about John
Lennon before writing this book?

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Were you a huge fan?
Were you just kind of a fan?

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I’d say I became a huge fan in
the 90s actually, as I was only

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14 when he died in 19/19/80.
I was into the Jam and the XTC

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and Bowie and Blondie.
I wasn’t into some old guy to

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the 60s.
You know who I vaguely heard

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about, but I didn’t really know
he was, to be honest with you,

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when I was 14.
Wasn’t interested.

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Just like Starting Over sounded
like a very dull 50s prestige

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song to me, so I wasn’t buying
it.

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I think it was the Anthology in
the 90s that kind of got me into

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them.
And boy did I enjoy that deep

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dive into the White Album and
all their fantastic stuff.

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They did post drugs.
I’m not really a big early poppy

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Beatles fan, you know, It was
all a bit basic, but once they

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kicked on from rubber sole, I
mean, wow, it was all incredible

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stuff.
They’re geniuses for sure.

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But again, to the 90s, when I
splurged on it, I just parked

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it, you know?
Again, it was an old act and

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they were much more interesting
people in the 90s for me to

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explore.
So no, not a big fan.

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And I always, like most of the
world, just thought, well, that

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murder’s as simple as it gets,
you know, as an obsessed fan.

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He shot him outside his home.
He admitted he did it.

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There’s something a bit odd
about a book.

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Case closed, you know, and and I
never bothered to think about

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it.
Yeah, I think that’s most of us,

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because it does seem pretty cut
and dry.

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He was standing right there with
a gun, as we’ve been told at

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least.
So obviously he did it, but more

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to it than that, we’ll get
there.

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What prompted you to look into
John Lennon’s death initially?

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Because at first you were
looking into it as just that, a

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murder, right?
Yeah, I was it.

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I’m a big, I should say off the
bat, I’m a big fan of the Oliver

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Stone JFK film.
Cliche Alert was a bit of a red

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pill for me back in the day in
the early 90s.

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It really was.
I was completely innocent up to

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that point about American
politics and how the CIA worked.

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I probably didn’t know what the
what the CIA was before Oliver

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Stanchill came out.
So that’s always been an

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interest.
And there’s a really good JFK

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podcast called Black Ops Radio,
as I’m sure you know, or perhaps

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you don’t know.
But yeah, it’s a great, it’s a

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great kind of JFK thing that’s
been going on for many, many

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years.
And it was locked down, Adam.

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I was just out walking my dog in
a field listening to Black Ops

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Radio podcasts in my ear.
And someone on that podcast,

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can’t remember who, mentioned
the fact that the doorman is an

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alleged CIA assassin who was at
the Bay of Pigs.

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And I just thought, wow, OK, CIA
bear pigs.

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Jeff Casey’s interesting.
I didn’t know this.

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If it’s true, that’s a massive
coincidence that needs looking

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into.
And I literally just went home.

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This would have been spring
2020.

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I went home, obviously had a lot
of time in my hands, locked

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down.
Everything was parked, which I

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kind of liked, to be honest, in
the early days.

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I didn’t hate it.
I thought, yeah, open mind, just

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everything just felt relaxed for
for a short while.

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So it’s a good time to look into
something fresh.

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And the first thing I started to
sort of discover Adam was

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there’s no detail here.
Where’s the detail?

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This is a really famous guy, one
of the most famous men who ever

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lived, and his murder doesn’t
have any details.

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Kind of like the guy shot him.
He fell down end the story.

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But where did he shoot him?
And what happened after he shot

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him?
And where on his body was he

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shot?
And I, I started to dig a little

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bit deeper and deeper and, and,
and I thought it’s just, there’s

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something not right here.
I just, it just felt off.

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Something wasn’t making sense.
And I’ve been a researcher in

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TV.
I come from a TV background.

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I’ve done news research.
So I have a research background.

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So I, I kept going and going and
going and it really opened up

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when I spoke to the doctors.
I thought they’re the first

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people I need to talk to.
Exactly.

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JFK, the autopsy and the medical
was all a big part of the

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conspiracy.
Was he shot in the front?

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Was he shot in the back, blah,
blah, blah.

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So I thought, OK, I need to get
this figured out.

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And, and I, I innocently once I
found the real doctor because

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amazingly, many doctors have
falsely claimed to be the Doctor

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Who treated John Lennon, which
is incredible.

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But when I found the real
doctor, I just expected him to

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say, yeah, he was shot in the
back, case closed.

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But that’s not what he said.
Yeah, it kind of reminds me of

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the RFK assassination in that
way, where all the witnesses say

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Sir Han, Sir Han was standing in
front shooting at RFK.

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Meanwhile, the shot that killed
him was point blank behind his

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ear.
And at least in that case, it

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came out this.
I feel like this is the first

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time any type of information
along those lines about the John

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Lennon shooting has even been
made public.

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You’re right, Adam.
Yeah, you’re and you’re, you’re

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right.
And which is amazing.

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And, and I think the reason for
that, it’s not down to me it,

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it’s down to the fact that a
doctor called Doctor Lin for 30

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years took the credit for trying
to save John Lena’s life.

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And he wasn’t the doctor that
did that.

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He was in the room.
He was a head of the ER.

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He came out and spoke to the
press, but he never saw John’s

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wounds up close and he never
tried to save John.

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So whenever he went on a
documentary for the next 30

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years after 1980, he just
basically kept it very loose and

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very brief about wounds.
In fact, he never discussed

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wounds because he couldn’t
because he wasn’t quite sure.

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So in kind, the media and
documentary film makers and

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journalists didn’t bother to
delve any sort of, you know,

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because Doctor Lynn wasn’t
bringing up the wounds.

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They never decided to go there.
So it just kind of never came

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up.
And I remember talking to Doctor

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Halloran, the real Doctor Who
kept in the shadows for 30

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years.
Not still not quite sure why he

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did that.
He doesn’t like fame.

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He doesn’t like fuss.
He’s a bit old school.

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But I still think I don’t know
how he could have let Lynn take

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the credit for 30 years.
But anyway, he got tired of Lynn

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constantly taking the credit
because a big key thing that

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Lynn always used to say was that
he tried to pump John Lennon’s

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heart with his own hands.
You know, they cut inside John’s

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chest and did that.
Halloran did that.

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And I think it was just one
documentary that Lynn was on, I

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don’t know, 2015 or something,
where he’d said it on CNN or

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something.
And Halloran told me he snapped.

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He thought, I’ve had enough.
I just can’t allow this guy to

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just keep on taking the credit
for this.

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So he went to the media, and the
media said, wow, this is the

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real guy.
And they all discovered that was

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the truth.
But when I spoke to Halloran, I

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said, so just tell me again,
Doctor Hallen, where on John’s

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back was he shocked?
Because that was still what I

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was thinking happened.
And remember, this is what Mark

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Chapman thinks he’s done and has
to.

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This has never wavered from
that.

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Mark Chapman’s always saw on the
night of the murder, I shot John

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in the back with four bullets.
If you rang up Mark Chapman

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tonight in prison, he still
thinks, I think that he shot

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John four times in the back.
So he then said to me, Doctor

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Hallen, well, he wasn’t shot in
the back, he was shot in the

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front.
And it was that real kind of Roy

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Schneider jaws moment where
everything just came into sharp

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focus.
And I just, I remember that

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moment really well.
And I just thought, oh, no, this

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is bigger than I thought.
This is this could, this is

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massive.
I didn’t believe him at first.

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And I, I said, Are you sure?
He said, well, of course I’m

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sure.
I’ve tried to save him.

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And he said there were four
bullets in his upper left chest

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in a tight professional
grouping, to quote him.

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And three bullets came straight
out of John’s back, upper left

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back in a Direct Line of fire.
And one bullet that was near his

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upper left chest arm, upper left
shoulder arm stayed in, he said.

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So three went through, one
stayed in, shot in the front.

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I said where do you think the
shooter was?

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He said, well, the shoot had to
be 1-2 feet away, very close,

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because it’s the type grouping
professional guy.

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He assumed Mark Chapman was a
professional shooter.

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And when I said to him that Mark
Chapman was 20 feet behind John

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to his left, he just said, no,
that can’t be.

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He had to have walked up to him.
You must be mistaken.

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And I said no, because we’ve got
a lot of witnesses who saw Mark

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just before the shooting and
just after the shooting.

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Mark himself says John was 20
feet away and he shot him in the

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back.
He said, no, not the case.

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And then he asked me to.
I then I said, is there anyone

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else I can corroborate with him?
He said, yeah, Talk to the two

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nurses, Dee and Barbara, who
tried to help me that night.

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They’re thankfully still alive.
And they’re very no nonsense,

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straightforward New York nurses
who were very experienced at the

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time, so they knew what they
were talking about.

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And they said, yeah, 100%, four
in the upper left chest, 3 upper

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left back.
Guy must have been standing very

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close.
And yeah, 100% that’s what

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happened.
That is such a crucial detail

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because it, like you say in the
book, kind of speaks to Mark

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David Chapman not being
physically able to have pulled

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this off, especially the
grouping of the bullets.

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Like that’s marksman stuff.
And.

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Yeah, and he and he had a
revolver as well.

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I don’t remember.
So a revolver, you have to it,

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it kicks and it there’s a slight
delay as it moves around the

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chamber.
So he had to re aim each time.

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So it kick, re aim, re aim, re
aim.

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It was a very dark driveway,
still is actually.

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But in 1980 there was his very
low orange lights glowing.

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Even if John turned and we can
pretty much prove that he didn’t

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turn, which we’ll get into in a
little while because they did

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try to throw that in there very
early on that he’d called out to

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John Mark Chapman, which he’s
never said he did and I don’t

214
00:10:06,680 –> 00:10:09,040
think he did do.
But even if he did turn, just

215
00:10:09,040 –> 00:10:11,760
imagine the scenario.
He’s walking away towards the

216
00:10:11,760 –> 00:10:14,080
vestibule to go inside his home
through the driveway.

217
00:10:14,240 –> 00:10:16,760
Someone, a stranger, calls out
behind him, 20 feet.

218
00:10:16,960 –> 00:10:19,000
We’re being asked to believe
that John would then turn around

219
00:10:19,000 –> 00:10:22,400
180°, stare at this stranger
straight on.

220
00:10:22,600 –> 00:10:25,080
And this stranger who’s not a
professional marksman, though he

221
00:10:25,080 –> 00:10:28,040
was an armed security guard, so
he had some gun training we

222
00:10:28,040 –> 00:10:31,600
can’t say he wasn’t familiar
with guns from 2025 feet away,

223
00:10:31,600 –> 00:10:34,520
shoots John four times in his
upper left chest.

224
00:10:34,520 –> 00:10:37,320
And we’re asked to believe that
John stood there dead still and

225
00:10:38,240 –> 00:10:41,200
loud.
Mark Chapman to do this as three

226
00:10:41,200 –> 00:10:43,080
of the bullets went right
through him, one of them

227
00:10:43,080 –> 00:10:45,920
actually severed his sub Clavian
artery completely and three

228
00:10:45,920 –> 00:10:48,200
other many arteries around his
heart were also blown away with

229
00:10:48,520 –> 00:10:50,960
the three other bullets and he
stays dead still.

230
00:10:51,120 –> 00:10:53,600
But here’s where it gets really
problematic, Adam.

231
00:10:53,840 –> 00:10:56,920
We’re then now asked to believe
that after this happened, John

232
00:10:57,160 –> 00:11:01,760
turns around another 180° with
these four holes in him, walks

233
00:11:01,760 –> 00:11:05,520
up to a vestibule door, hauls
open the vestibule door, walks

234
00:11:05,520 –> 00:11:08,440
into a vestibule area, walks up
6 steps.

235
00:11:08,880 –> 00:11:11,440
He’s now in a lobby.
He pulls open some mahogany

236
00:11:11,440 –> 00:11:13,480
doors to get into that lobby.
These are big doors.

237
00:11:13,800 –> 00:11:16,320
He then turns left, goes through
a swinging door.

238
00:11:16,400 –> 00:11:19,320
He’s now into a front
concierge’s office.

239
00:11:19,320 –> 00:11:22,440
He runs through, staggers
through this concierge’s front

240
00:11:22,440 –> 00:11:27,280
office into another office, a
back office and collapses down

241
00:11:27,520 –> 00:11:29,640
face 1st.
And he’s still got time to say

242
00:11:29,640 –> 00:11:31,760
to the concierge, I’ve been
shot, I’ve been shot.

243
00:11:31,880 –> 00:11:33,160
So they want us to believe this
happened.

244
00:11:33,360 –> 00:11:35,400
But here’s the problem, Adam,
here’s a massive problem.

245
00:11:35,600 –> 00:11:38,080
If you talk to all the doctors
and nurses you treated John, and

246
00:11:38,080 –> 00:11:40,920
if you take the statements of
the chief medical officer, who’s

247
00:11:40,920 –> 00:11:43,120
a dubious man, but he did say
this as well.

248
00:11:43,120 –> 00:11:44,400
So they all agree on this one
point.

249
00:11:44,560 –> 00:11:46,640
Death would have happened almost
instantly to John Lennon when

250
00:11:46,640 –> 00:11:48,760
those bullets hit him because
they were very serious wounds,

251
00:11:48,760 –> 00:11:51,800
very serious injuries.
So the official narrative’s got

252
00:11:51,800 –> 00:11:55,320
a big problem because for Mark
to shoot John front or back,

253
00:11:55,320 –> 00:11:57,960
take your pick, it has to happen
in the driveway.

254
00:11:58,560 –> 00:12:00,200
But John’s body wasn’t found in
the driveway.

255
00:12:00,200 –> 00:12:02,040
And this is what this is
something that I think the world

256
00:12:02,040 –> 00:12:03,960
has completely got wrong and I
got it wrong.

257
00:12:03,960 –> 00:12:06,520
I just imagined he was lying in
the driveway, but his body was

258
00:12:06,520 –> 00:12:10,320
found by all the cops who found
him far away from the driveway

259
00:12:10,720 –> 00:12:13,880
in a back office space down
which is another strange

260
00:12:13,880 –> 00:12:16,520
anomaly.
Yeah, I had never heard that

261
00:12:16,720 –> 00:12:19,880
part either.
I always assumed he just died

262
00:12:19,880 –> 00:12:24,320
right there where he was shot.
I don’t know how a person who

263
00:12:24,320 –> 00:12:28,200
would be skeptical of this, I
don’t know how you could justify

264
00:12:28,200 –> 00:12:31,480
those two things.
You don’t get shot four times in

265
00:12:31,480 –> 00:12:35,920
the heart, basically, or very
near it and travel the distance

266
00:12:35,920 –> 00:12:37,720
he did.
He’s going through doors and

267
00:12:37,720 –> 00:12:40,280
why?
What would he be going to that

268
00:12:40,280 –> 00:12:43,200
back office for anyway?
Well, to be fair, when you get

269
00:12:43,240 –> 00:12:45,080
out the stairs, you go into the
Vessel, up the stairs, through

270
00:12:45,080 –> 00:12:46,440
the big mahogany doors, you’re
in the lobby.

271
00:12:46,440 –> 00:12:48,880
That was a way of getting into
John’s apartments over to the

272
00:12:48,880 –> 00:12:50,880
right so the concierge could
buzz him in.

273
00:12:50,880 –> 00:12:53,160
So John was going in an area
that where we would expect him

274
00:12:53,160 –> 00:12:55,760
to go, or let’s say a second
shooter might expect him to go.

275
00:12:55,760 –> 00:12:58,280
He always had a very sort of
predictable journey.

276
00:12:58,840 –> 00:13:01,160
There was a kind of front
counter desk there in the lobby

277
00:13:01,160 –> 00:13:03,240
and that’s where he picked up
his letters and his mail and

278
00:13:03,240 –> 00:13:04,680
parcels and stuff.
And then he went off into his

279
00:13:04,680 –> 00:13:07,840
apartments over to the right.
Why he decided to sort of run

280
00:13:07,840 –> 00:13:11,120
left and into the concierge’s
front office and it running into

281
00:13:11,120 –> 00:13:13,840
a back office when he, if he
could say to the concierge, I’ve

282
00:13:13,840 –> 00:13:16,120
been shot, I’ve been shot and
travelled through two offices.

283
00:13:16,400 –> 00:13:18,560
Perhaps he perhaps should have
said as he came into the lobby,

284
00:13:18,800 –> 00:13:21,280
can you buzz me in J Hastings?
It was a concierge into my

285
00:13:21,280 –> 00:13:22,760
apartments.
It might have been a safer place

286
00:13:22,760 –> 00:13:24,440
for him to go.
Of course, you can do any of

287
00:13:24,440 –> 00:13:28,240
this, but they have to have us
have him do this because they

288
00:13:28,240 –> 00:13:29,720
know.
And I know I spoke to all the

289
00:13:29,720 –> 00:13:32,000
cops who saw him that night.
I sponsored every single cop

290
00:13:32,000 –> 00:13:34,480
that went into that back office.
They all said the same thing,

291
00:13:34,960 –> 00:13:37,360
face down, bleeding out back
office.

292
00:13:37,360 –> 00:13:40,680
So we know where he was.
But how he got from the driveway

293
00:13:40,840 –> 00:13:43,520
to there with those four big
holes in him is a very

294
00:13:43,520 –> 00:13:45,840
interesting question.
Yeah, it sure is.

295
00:13:45,840 –> 00:13:50,520
Jay Hastings is an interesting
figure in this.

296
00:13:50,560 –> 00:13:53,800
I remember there’s someone who
said they carried John Lennon’s

297
00:13:53,800 –> 00:13:57,440
body out with the cops and it
seems like they were lying about

298
00:13:57,440 –> 00:13:59,080
that.
Well, yeah, let’s go.

299
00:13:59,200 –> 00:14:00,720
We should, I suppose, just for
Pickler.

300
00:14:00,720 –> 00:14:03,120
Not too familiar with the story,
say the official narrative.

301
00:14:03,120 –> 00:14:05,880
John and Yoko at a recording
studio.

302
00:14:06,160 –> 00:14:09,480
Monday the 8th of December 19,
eighty, 10:50 PM.

303
00:14:09,480 –> 00:14:12,000
They pull up outside their home
in a limo.

304
00:14:12,240 –> 00:14:14,760
Still not quite sure who got out
of the limo first met.

305
00:14:14,760 –> 00:14:17,560
Some say Yoko sometimes said it
was her, sometimes Yoko said it

306
00:14:17,560 –> 00:14:19,560
was John.
We’ll go with Yoko first.

307
00:14:19,560 –> 00:14:20,960
I think that’s pretty much what
happened.

308
00:14:20,960 –> 00:14:23,760
Yoko’s ahead of John.
Not quite sure what she does.

309
00:14:23,880 –> 00:14:25,360
She doesn’t go in, I don’t
think.

310
00:14:25,360 –> 00:14:27,520
She maybe goes into the back
courtyard area.

311
00:14:27,760 –> 00:14:30,560
Let’s just park Yoko for now.
We do know what John did.

312
00:14:30,560 –> 00:14:34,000
John walked in past Chapman into
this driveway tunnel, walks over

313
00:14:34,000 –> 00:14:36,240
to the right where these glass
festival doors were, which is to

314
00:14:36,240 –> 00:14:38,520
head into the lobby and into his
apartments.

315
00:14:38,520 –> 00:14:40,840
And according to the official
narrative, Mark Chapman is on

316
00:14:40,840 –> 00:14:43,920
the left hand side of the
driveway, on the sidewalk side

317
00:14:43,920 –> 00:14:46,320
of it as John walks past him.
This is according to Mark

318
00:14:46,320 –> 00:14:48,640
Chapman as well, by the way.
As John approaches the

319
00:14:48,640 –> 00:14:51,760
vestibule, Mark gets out again.
It’s got A5 bullet revolver.

320
00:14:51,760 –> 00:14:53,840
He says he shoots John four
times in the back.

321
00:14:54,120 –> 00:14:57,040
One bullet misses.
Then it gets very weird with

322
00:14:57,040 –> 00:14:59,440
regards to the gun because
sometimes Mark says he dropped

323
00:14:59,440 –> 00:15:01,400
the gun.
Sometimes Mark says the doorman,

324
00:15:01,480 –> 00:15:03,720
Jose Padermo, shook it out of
his hand.

325
00:15:04,040 –> 00:15:07,440
Now, we should say that the
doorman was not ACIA operative.

326
00:15:07,440 –> 00:15:10,040
He was not at the bear pigs.
There was a very serious dude

327
00:15:10,040 –> 00:15:13,360
called Jose Padermo who wasn’t
the bear pigs and he was a CIA

328
00:15:13,440 –> 00:15:15,440
assassin.
And if he was working the door

329
00:15:15,440 –> 00:15:17,440
the night John Lennon was
assassinated, it clearly would

330
00:15:17,440 –> 00:15:19,360
have been him.
But it’s a different Jose

331
00:15:19,360 –> 00:15:20,960
Baderma.
It’s a very common name.

332
00:15:21,000 –> 00:15:23,760
The birth dates are different.
This Jose at the Dakota started

333
00:15:23,760 –> 00:15:26,000
working at 69.
John didn’t live there for a few

334
00:15:26,000 –> 00:15:27,440
years after that.
You know, how did he know to

335
00:15:27,440 –> 00:15:29,480
start working at a place that he
didn’t know John Lennon was

336
00:15:29,480 –> 00:15:30,840
going to come and live in?
It’s ridiculous.

337
00:15:31,000 –> 00:15:32,760
So.
But this Jose is strange because

338
00:15:32,760 –> 00:15:35,880
then what he did was when this
gun allegedly was on the floor

339
00:15:35,880 –> 00:15:38,920
in front of Mark Chapman, Jose
kicks it to the back of the

340
00:15:38,920 –> 00:15:41,240
driveway, OK, where the
vestibule is.

341
00:15:41,400 –> 00:15:43,520
And then he walks up to it and
starts walking around it.

342
00:15:43,920 –> 00:15:47,800
Now, why didn’t he pick it up?
Why did he decide to play soccer

343
00:15:47,800 –> 00:15:49,600
with it?
But why are you kicking a gun

344
00:15:49,600 –> 00:15:50,680
around Jose?
Won’t you know?

345
00:15:51,560 –> 00:15:53,400
So this is odd.
Then you’ve got another

346
00:15:53,400 –> 00:15:57,080
character who comes into the
scene, a kind of Porter basement

347
00:15:57,080 –> 00:16:00,000
crew guy called Joe Manny who
says he heard gunfire and he

348
00:16:00,000 –> 00:16:02,480
came up with two Co workers and
they all say the same thing.

349
00:16:02,480 –> 00:16:05,160
When they came up, they say that
Jose, the down with the dorm was

350
00:16:05,160 –> 00:16:07,600
walking around a gun by the
vestibule in an agitated state

351
00:16:07,920 –> 00:16:10,720
and said to Joe, Manny, take
this gun, take it downstairs,

352
00:16:11,040 –> 00:16:13,960
which amazingly Joe Manny did.
Did Joe look, what’s going on

353
00:16:13,960 –> 00:16:15,040
Jose?
Why?

354
00:16:15,120 –> 00:16:18,040
Whose gun is this and what’s
who’s that guy over by the

355
00:16:18,040 –> 00:16:21,480
sidewalk now reading a book?
Joe didn’t do any of this, which

356
00:16:21,480 –> 00:16:23,640
is what anyone I think normally
would do.

357
00:16:23,640 –> 00:16:26,600
But Joe and the two guys, they
verify this in their witness

358
00:16:26,600 –> 00:16:29,920
statements, pick the gun up.
They all went down together

359
00:16:30,280 –> 00:16:31,640
again.
Why do they all go down with a

360
00:16:31,640 –> 00:16:32,640
gun?
Very strange.

361
00:16:33,000 –> 00:16:34,400
They all go down in the lift
with the gun.

362
00:16:34,680 –> 00:16:37,160
They put it away in a drawer and
they all come back up again.

363
00:16:37,160 –> 00:16:40,440
So that’s the Joe Manny story up
to that point.

364
00:16:40,440 –> 00:16:44,320
Now, John allegedly, according
to Jay Hastings, the concierge

365
00:16:44,320 –> 00:16:47,080
is in the front office, which is
where he’s supposed to be.

366
00:16:47,560 –> 00:16:50,560
Jay Hastings said he heard
gunfire after hearing the Vespa

367
00:16:50,560 –> 00:16:53,240
door open, which is interesting.
He said he heard various shots.

368
00:16:53,240 –> 00:16:55,080
Sometimes he said three,
sometimes he says four.

369
00:16:55,240 –> 00:16:59,400
He says John comes running in
past him, staggering like a kind

370
00:16:59,400 –> 00:17:01,920
of drunk man, says I’ve been
shot, I’ve been shot and then

371
00:17:01,920 –> 00:17:03,760
runs into this back office and
collapses.

372
00:17:03,760 –> 00:17:05,760
And Jay says he runs into the
back office.

373
00:17:06,160 –> 00:17:08,880
He said John’s on his side, OK,
which is interesting.

374
00:17:08,880 –> 00:17:10,200
So he’s not faced out at this
point.

375
00:17:10,400 –> 00:17:12,640
He says he can see there’s a lot
of blood on his chest.

376
00:17:12,960 –> 00:17:14,440
Never mentions holes in his
back.

377
00:17:14,720 –> 00:17:16,079
Everybody always talks about
chest.

378
00:17:16,079 –> 00:17:19,560
Wings says he realised at that
point he couldn’t save him.

379
00:17:19,880 –> 00:17:21,200
Sometimes he said there were
tapes there.

380
00:17:21,200 –> 00:17:22,599
Sometimes he doesn’t save his
tapes there.

381
00:17:22,880 –> 00:17:25,079
Sometimes people said he took
his glasses off.

382
00:17:25,400 –> 00:17:27,240
Jay’s told me he didn’t take his
glasses off.

383
00:17:27,240 –> 00:17:29,800
It’s just nonsense.
And then Jay says he came out

384
00:17:29,800 –> 00:17:31,960
and rang cops and rang an
ambulance.

385
00:17:31,960 –> 00:17:35,520
And at that point he says Jose
Baderno came in and Germany came

386
00:17:35,520 –> 00:17:38,680
in, and that’s Jay Hastings
story up to that point.

387
00:17:39,080 –> 00:17:40,560
So Joe, man, let’s get back to
Joe Manny.

388
00:17:40,560 –> 00:17:42,880
So Joe Manny’s got the gun down
in the drawer.

389
00:17:42,880 –> 00:17:45,120
He’s come back up again.
Now he’s come up a different

390
00:17:45,120 –> 00:17:46,240
way.
He’s come up in the courtyard.

391
00:17:46,240 –> 00:17:47,400
He hasn’t come up in some
driveway.

392
00:17:47,400 –> 00:17:48,840
He’s come up in a slightly
different way.

393
00:17:49,080 –> 00:17:52,080
And he’s walked into the lobby
front office area and he sees

394
00:17:52,080 –> 00:17:55,000
some very interesting things.
Adam, first thing he sees that

395
00:17:55,000 –> 00:17:58,080
shouldn’t be there is a big pool
of blood, a large pool of blood

396
00:17:58,080 –> 00:18:01,520
in the front office, OK, The
office that Jay Hastings said

397
00:18:01,520 –> 00:18:04,920
that John allegedly ran through.
So how the hell did that blood

398
00:18:04,920 –> 00:18:06,920
get in the front office?
And he’s very descriptive.

399
00:18:06,920 –> 00:18:09,760
He says it was in a gully just
behind the desk and in the

400
00:18:09,760 –> 00:18:12,520
marble floor, which Jay Hastings
has said, yes, there was a gully

401
00:18:12,520 –> 00:18:14,320
there.
And he said Jay Hastings was

402
00:18:14,560 –> 00:18:16,880
covered in blood.
And sometimes you use the phrase

403
00:18:16,960 –> 00:18:18,600
full of blood.
His shirt was full of blood.

404
00:18:18,680 –> 00:18:20,280
So I thought, OK, that’s a bit
odd.

405
00:18:20,280 –> 00:18:21,480
I said, what else did you see,
Joe?

406
00:18:21,480 –> 00:18:24,560
He said, well, I saw John and
Yoko in the back office with

407
00:18:24,560 –> 00:18:28,760
Yoko cradling John in her arms.
So I thought, OK, if she’s

408
00:18:28,760 –> 00:18:31,760
cradling John in her arms, how
did he end up face down when the

409
00:18:31,760 –> 00:18:33,680
cops got there?
That’s not what you do.

410
00:18:33,800 –> 00:18:34,960
That’s not what a loving wife
does.

411
00:18:34,960 –> 00:18:38,040
I mean, I’m no first aid medical
expert, but I know it’s someone

412
00:18:38,040 –> 00:18:39,280
shot.
I’m not going to leave them face

413
00:18:39,280 –> 00:18:41,040
down on the floor.
You’re going to leave them on

414
00:18:41,040 –> 00:18:43,360
this side or on their back,
surely, so they can breathe.

415
00:18:43,400 –> 00:18:45,400
I mean, that’s just basic, isn’t
it?

416
00:18:45,400 –> 00:18:48,040
Yeah, we’ll part that.
So I said to Jay Hastings, I

417
00:18:48,040 –> 00:18:50,680
said, Jay, couple of problems.
How did that blood get in the

418
00:18:50,680 –> 00:18:52,200
front office?
So he said there’s no blood in

419
00:18:52,200 –> 00:18:53,760
the front office.
Joe, Manny’s lying.

420
00:18:54,240 –> 00:18:56,720
OK, so one of them not telling
the truth there.

421
00:18:56,720 –> 00:18:59,960
So that’s slightly disturbing.
I said how did that blood get on

422
00:18:59,960 –> 00:19:01,880
your shirt, Jay?
I said he said, yeah, there was

423
00:19:01,880 –> 00:19:03,480
blood on my shirt.
He doesn’t deny there was blood

424
00:19:03,480 –> 00:19:05,160
in his shirt.
I said, how did blood get on

425
00:19:05,160 –> 00:19:06,720
your shirt?
He said I’ve got blood on my

426
00:19:06,720 –> 00:19:08,800
shirt through carrying John’s
body out with cops.

427
00:19:09,040 –> 00:19:12,960
I said OK, so I then spoke to
Joe Manny about this.

428
00:19:12,960 –> 00:19:16,200
I said, how did you think Jay
got blood on his shirt, Joe?

429
00:19:16,400 –> 00:19:18,560
He said, well, Jay told me.
Well, I think he said Jay

430
00:19:18,560 –> 00:19:24,960
inferred that John fell into his
arms, and he assumed that John

431
00:19:24,960 –> 00:19:28,800
fell into his arms in the front
office, collapsed in the front

432
00:19:28,800 –> 00:19:31,680
office and started bleeding out,
hence the blood in the front

433
00:19:31,680 –> 00:19:34,600
office.
And Joe, Manny assumed that Yoko

434
00:19:34,600 –> 00:19:39,200
Ono and Jay Hastings moved
John’s body into the back office

435
00:19:39,520 –> 00:19:43,120
because they felt it might be
safer away from the killer, Mark

436
00:19:43,120 –> 00:19:45,000
Chapman, which makes some kind
of logic.

437
00:19:45,480 –> 00:19:47,840
Sure.
When I spoke to Jay about this

438
00:19:47,840 –> 00:19:49,880
again, he said no, we didn’t
move his body.

439
00:19:49,880 –> 00:19:52,160
John didn’t fall into my arms.
There was no blood in the front

440
00:19:52,160 –> 00:19:54,000
office.
Joe managed lying.

441
00:19:54,320 –> 00:19:56,440
So.
OK, so this is all very

442
00:19:56,440 –> 00:19:58,240
interesting.
Let’s get to the cops.

443
00:19:58,440 –> 00:20:01,600
So the first two cops arrived,
Spiro and Cullen, officers Spiro

444
00:20:01,600 –> 00:20:03,160
and Cullen.
Spiro deals with Chapman.

445
00:20:03,400 –> 00:20:07,080
Cullen goes in to the back
office, sees John Lang face

446
00:20:07,080 –> 00:20:10,440
down, comes back out to Spiro
and says, put handcuffs on that

447
00:20:10,440 –> 00:20:11,640
guy.
There’s a guy bleeding out in

448
00:20:11,640 –> 00:20:13,800
here.
Two other cops turn up officers

449
00:20:13,800 –> 00:20:16,680
Framberger and Cullen.
They pull up, they go into the

450
00:20:16,680 –> 00:20:19,440
back office, and they see John
Lang face down again.

451
00:20:19,440 –> 00:20:20,440
This is how they all describe
him.

452
00:20:20,760 –> 00:20:24,280
Framberger says he tried to take
John’s pulse and he felt a very

453
00:20:24,280 –> 00:20:26,360
faint pulse.
I don’t believe it was a faint

454
00:20:26,360 –> 00:20:28,960
pulse there, but he
unconvincingly said he felt a

455
00:20:28,960 –> 00:20:30,760
faint pulse.
And they decided that the best

456
00:20:30,760 –> 00:20:33,800
thing to do was to lift him up
and carry him out into a police

457
00:20:33,800 –> 00:20:36,040
car and drive into the hospital
because there was no time to

458
00:20:36,040 –> 00:20:38,720
wait for an ambulance.
So sadly, they spot the crime

459
00:20:38,720 –> 00:20:40,880
scene, and I think John was dead
at that point anyway.

460
00:20:40,880 –> 00:20:43,640
It doesn’t really matter, but it
was difficult from an evidence

461
00:20:43,640 –> 00:20:45,320
point of view to do that.
But that’s what they did.

462
00:20:45,640 –> 00:20:47,160
Framberger said he took the
legs.

463
00:20:47,480 –> 00:20:51,120
Palmer said he took the head and
shoulders and arms and the two

464
00:20:51,120 –> 00:20:53,680
of them carriage on out.
They both are adamant that they

465
00:20:53,680 –> 00:20:56,280
did it.
Joe Manny said, yeah, two cops

466
00:20:56,280 –> 00:20:58,760
carried John out.
Witnesses on the street who are

467
00:20:58,760 –> 00:21:02,240
beginning to now mingle outside
the Dakota, they all said, yeah,

468
00:21:02,320 –> 00:21:04,720
it was two cops carried John’s
body out.

469
00:21:04,720 –> 00:21:07,640
So we know two cops did it.
And even Mark Chapman, would you

470
00:21:07,640 –> 00:21:11,800
believe Adam, who was sitting in
Spiro’s car, handcuffed at the

471
00:21:11,800 –> 00:21:15,440
back seat, said he saw a cop
carrying John’s arm and head

472
00:21:15,440 –> 00:21:19,160
out, swear at him as he walked
past Karen John, past him and

473
00:21:19,160 –> 00:21:21,320
put John into a car.
I spoke to Para about.

474
00:21:21,320 –> 00:21:22,680
He said, yeah, that’s exactly
what I did.

475
00:21:22,680 –> 00:21:25,160
I swore at Mark Chapman as I
walked past the car.

476
00:21:25,160 –> 00:21:28,760
Karen John’s body act.
So we know that Framberger and

477
00:21:28,760 –> 00:21:30,800
Palmer did this, right?
It was those two, those two

478
00:21:30,800 –> 00:21:32,000
only.
But here’s the problem.

479
00:21:32,200 –> 00:21:33,560
Jay Hastings says, no, they’re
lying.

480
00:21:33,880 –> 00:21:38,040
I carried John’s body out, arm
and shoulders, and that’s how my

481
00:21:38,040 –> 00:21:40,320
shirt got covered in blood,
which is clearly a lie.

482
00:21:40,760 –> 00:21:43,320
Yeah, it’s clearly not true.
So now we’ve got to ask

483
00:21:43,320 –> 00:21:46,880
ourselves, why are you making up
a story, Jay, about why your

484
00:21:46,880 –> 00:21:49,080
shirt’s covered in blood?
And how did your shirt get

485
00:21:49,080 –> 00:21:51,600
covered in blood?
Because your story of John

486
00:21:51,600 –> 00:21:54,840
running past you doesn’t stack
up from what the medical people

487
00:21:54,840 –> 00:21:56,360
have told us.
And it doesn’t stack up with

488
00:21:56,360 –> 00:21:58,600
that pool of blood that Joe
Manny saw in the front office.

489
00:21:58,840 –> 00:22:01,160
And it certainly doesn’t stack
up to how you got yourself

490
00:22:01,440 –> 00:22:02,640
covered in blood.
Yeah.

491
00:22:02,640 –> 00:22:05,360
So Jay Hastings has got some
stories that he still needs to

492
00:22:05,360 –> 00:22:09,720
reveal with regards to Yoko.
Jay Hastings said that seconds,

493
00:22:09,720 –> 00:22:13,360
just one or two seconds after
John came running past him, Yoko

494
00:22:13,360 –> 00:22:15,360
came running in screaming.
Get an ambulance.

495
00:22:15,360 –> 00:22:18,640
Get an ambulance, call a doctor,
which you would assume is

496
00:22:18,640 –> 00:22:20,320
logical.
But there’s a problem with that.

497
00:22:20,480 –> 00:22:22,680
And the problem with that is
we’ve got a new witness that

498
00:22:22,680 –> 00:22:24,960
I’ve managed to locate because I
should say, at this point, I

499
00:22:24,960 –> 00:22:27,440
managed to talk to lead
Detective Ron Hoffman and get

500
00:22:27,680 –> 00:22:30,080
all his notebooks and paperwork.
So I’ve got all the witness

501
00:22:30,080 –> 00:22:31,720
statements now.
And one of those witness

502
00:22:31,720 –> 00:22:34,120
statements in there that’s been
concealed is by a woman called

503
00:22:34,120 –> 00:22:36,840
Nina Rosen.
Nina Rosen is a dog Walker who

504
00:22:36,840 –> 00:22:38,920
every night walked her dog
outside the Dakota.

505
00:22:39,280 –> 00:22:41,520
So she knew that patch very,
very well.

506
00:22:41,520 –> 00:22:44,680
She’s an old lady, walked the
dog there many, many times over

507
00:22:44,680 –> 00:22:47,840
many years.
And just after gunfire, she said

508
00:22:47,840 –> 00:22:52,240
she double backed and came on
the scene in the Dakota driver,

509
00:22:52,240 –> 00:22:54,840
which is incredible because
she’s like a she’s like a fresh

510
00:22:54,840 –> 00:22:57,720
new witness to give us, you
know, exactly what was going on

511
00:22:57,720 –> 00:23:00,520
straight after gunfire.
And she says she said she saw a

512
00:23:00,520 –> 00:23:03,480
few interesting things.
She saw Mark and the doorman.

513
00:23:03,480 –> 00:23:05,720
She said she saw a large
gentleman in the doorman by the

514
00:23:05,720 –> 00:23:07,760
sidewalk, which is what we would
expect.

515
00:23:08,040 –> 00:23:11,720
But we think they’re by far.
She didn’t see John, which

516
00:23:11,720 –> 00:23:14,680
again, we kind of expect that
he’s off on his magical mystery

517
00:23:14,680 –> 00:23:19,400
tour inside the building.
She didn’t see a gun, which is

518
00:23:19,400 –> 00:23:22,120
strange because you’d think for
Mark to drop the gun or for

519
00:23:22,120 –> 00:23:23,920
Harrison to knock it out of his
hand and then kick it to the

520
00:23:23,920 –> 00:23:25,120
back and then walk towards the
gun.

521
00:23:25,400 –> 00:23:27,760
That would take a bit of time.
But she saw no gun.

522
00:23:27,960 –> 00:23:32,040
So that’s troubling, right?
And she saw Yoko.

523
00:23:32,160 –> 00:23:35,040
Now, according to Jay, she
shouldn’t see Yoko because Yoko

524
00:23:35,040 –> 00:23:36,400
came running in straight after
John.

525
00:23:36,720 –> 00:23:39,840
But she saw Yoko in a far
courtyard, which is a kind of

526
00:23:39,840 –> 00:23:42,840
gated fountain area beyond the
driveway, which again, you can

527
00:23:42,840 –> 00:23:46,000
access Lenin Apartments in.
So Yoko going that way makes

528
00:23:46,000 –> 00:23:48,560
some kind of sense.
But Yoko’s in the courtyard

529
00:23:48,760 –> 00:23:50,600
screaming she shouldn’t be
there.

530
00:23:50,880 –> 00:23:53,160
Quite a few Yoko statements.
She’s given five different

531
00:23:53,160 –> 00:23:55,680
statements on the night of the
murder and the day after.

532
00:23:56,080 –> 00:23:57,400
I’ve got all the statements.
They’re all different.

533
00:23:57,480 –> 00:23:59,680
Sometimes she said she’s ahead,
sometimes John’s ahead.

534
00:23:59,680 –> 00:24:00,920
Sometimes she runs in after
John.

535
00:24:00,920 –> 00:24:02,040
Sometimes she doesn’t run after
John.

536
00:24:02,280 –> 00:24:04,400
Sometimes John says I’m shot,
sometimes he doesn’t say I’m

537
00:24:04,400 –> 00:24:07,040
shot.
So you could say this is shock

538
00:24:07,360 –> 00:24:08,960
and PTSD.
Makes total sense.

539
00:24:08,960 –> 00:24:11,120
She’s saw something horrific.
So I’m going to give her, you

540
00:24:11,120 –> 00:24:13,480
know, we shouldn’t be too harsh
on her having different

541
00:24:13,480 –> 00:24:15,480
statements.
But at no point does she say I

542
00:24:15,480 –> 00:24:17,760
ran to the courtyard and I
screamed, which is now I’m

543
00:24:17,760 –> 00:24:20,600
pretty sure what she did.
So Yoko’s troubling.

544
00:24:21,000 –> 00:24:23,080
She’s very troubling.
In fact, they’re all of their

545
00:24:23,080 –> 00:24:25,640
statements.
Jomani’s statement, Jay Hastings

546
00:24:25,640 –> 00:24:27,800
statement, Yoko knows many
different statements.

547
00:24:28,200 –> 00:24:31,200
I’d like to tell you what the
Dorman Jose Padermo statement

548
00:24:31,200 –> 00:24:35,800
is, Adam, But strangely, the
NYPD and DA’s office do not want

549
00:24:35,800 –> 00:24:38,520
to release Jose Padermo’s
witness statements.

550
00:24:38,760 –> 00:24:41,320
Now, we know he gave various
statements because we know from

551
00:24:41,440 –> 00:24:44,880
some people told me, Jomani said
he went to the station with Jose

552
00:24:45,120 –> 00:24:46,960
in a police car and they gave a
statement that night.

553
00:24:46,960 –> 00:24:49,200
And Jeremi said that he gave
lots of statements to DA’s

554
00:24:49,200 –> 00:24:51,520
office in the days and weeks
afterwards, which you’d expect.

555
00:24:51,920 –> 00:24:55,120
So we know Padermo did this, but
for some reason the authorities

556
00:24:55,120 –> 00:24:57,000
do not want to release those
statements.

557
00:24:57,000 –> 00:24:59,640
They’ve released everyone else’s
statements, but not that one.

558
00:24:59,960 –> 00:25:01,600
That’s which is.
Interesting.

559
00:25:01,600 –> 00:25:05,720
Very, very interesting.
And I, I’m fairly convinced that

560
00:25:05,720 –> 00:25:09,760
the reason they’ve not done that
is the dermo didn’t see much.

561
00:25:09,760 –> 00:25:11,800
I think he probably walked back
to his goal booth, his

562
00:25:11,800 –> 00:25:14,400
watchman’s booth after John and
yoga the limousine.

563
00:25:14,400 –> 00:25:17,040
I think he heard gunfire.
I think he came on the scene and

564
00:25:17,040 –> 00:25:18,600
I think John was gone at that
point.

565
00:25:18,600 –> 00:25:21,520
And I think he just kind of
panicked and felt guilty that he

566
00:25:21,520 –> 00:25:23,040
didn’t do his job as a security
guard.

567
00:25:23,040 –> 00:25:27,400
But the official narrative wants
us to believe that Jose Padermo,

568
00:25:27,400 –> 00:25:30,120
the doorman, saw everything and
he’s the crucial key witness

569
00:25:30,120 –> 00:25:32,640
who, if it went to trial, which
of course it didn’t, he’s the

570
00:25:32,640 –> 00:25:34,240
guy that’s going to give them
all they need to know.

571
00:25:34,720 –> 00:25:37,520
I think he’s a suspicious guy,
Jose, because he wasn’t actually

572
00:25:37,520 –> 00:25:38,760
supposed to be working that
night.

573
00:25:38,800 –> 00:25:40,520
He was a doorman.
But a few weeks leading up to

574
00:25:40,520 –> 00:25:43,040
that, he was in the back office
working in the concierges office

575
00:25:43,400 –> 00:25:46,480
because he had bad legs.
But on that particular night he

576
00:25:46,480 –> 00:25:49,120
said to Jay, I want to go and
work the door tonight because

577
00:25:49,120 –> 00:25:51,080
it’s quite mild.
It’s quite a mild evening and my

578
00:25:51,080 –> 00:25:53,400
legs are feeling better.
So he made sure he was on the

579
00:25:53,400 –> 00:25:56,800
door when Mark turned up,
thinking he was doing something

580
00:25:56,800 –> 00:25:58,760
that we now know Mark wasn’t
doing.

581
00:25:59,080 –> 00:26:04,200
So I think just these basic
facts about the actual mechanics

582
00:26:04,200 –> 00:26:06,520
of the murder and who was there
and what they saw and how all

583
00:26:06,520 –> 00:26:10,280
their statements conflict.
I think just that alone is

584
00:26:10,280 –> 00:26:12,200
enough to bring a new
investigation into the whole

585
00:26:12,200 –> 00:26:13,320
thing.
None of it stacks up.

586
00:26:13,440 –> 00:26:15,760
I speak to the nurses and
doctors about John’s.

587
00:26:16,280 –> 00:26:19,040
I don’t want to be flippant, but
you know, it was a magical

588
00:26:19,040 –> 00:26:21,800
mystery tour.
And then they just go, no, no

589
00:26:21,800 –> 00:26:24,040
way, no way.
No, that’s ridiculous.

590
00:26:24,240 –> 00:26:26,800
He he wasn’t moving in the
second those bullets hit him,

591
00:26:26,960 –> 00:26:28,720
he’s down.
He’s not going anywhere.

592
00:26:28,720 –> 00:26:30,520
He’s there’s no way that guy was
running anyway.

593
00:26:30,760 –> 00:26:33,160
And and they’re kind of angry
now because people like Jay

594
00:26:33,160 –> 00:26:35,200
Hastings has now come out in the
press saying that John Ram

595
00:26:35,200 –> 00:26:36,560
passed him.
They never knew this.

596
00:26:36,560 –> 00:26:38,840
They always assumed that
Marchand just walked up to him

597
00:26:39,400 –> 00:26:42,040
at point blank range straight in
front of him, shot him four

598
00:26:42,040 –> 00:26:44,440
times, dropped the gun John
dropped in the driveway.

599
00:26:44,680 –> 00:26:47,720
Cops found him in the driveway,
carried him to the hospital.

600
00:26:47,800 –> 00:26:49,080
End of story.
That, you know, they think it’s

601
00:26:49,080 –> 00:26:51,600
simple when I tell them that
Mark was nowhere near John and

602
00:26:51,600 –> 00:26:54,080
he shot him, he thinks he shot
him in the back and they’re

603
00:26:54,520 –> 00:26:55,800
troubled.
That’s the word.

604
00:26:56,160 –> 00:27:00,440
Very troubled.
I imagine this part of it is

605
00:27:00,440 –> 00:27:02,800
probably not that tough of a
cell.

606
00:27:02,800 –> 00:27:06,040
Once you get into the Ballistics
and the weird witness

607
00:27:06,040 –> 00:27:09,560
statements, it’s pretty clear
something’s going on.

608
00:27:09,760 –> 00:27:13,840
But then there’s the Mark David
Chapman part, where you’re

609
00:27:13,840 –> 00:27:17,560
having to sell a skeptical
public on the idea of

610
00:27:17,960 –> 00:27:24,200
brainwashing and mind control.
Talk about some of the weird

611
00:27:24,200 –> 00:27:28,760
cast of characters that were
surrounding Mark David Chapman

612
00:27:28,800 –> 00:27:34,120
in the years leading up to this,
like the psychedelic pastor and

613
00:27:34,120 –> 00:27:37,880
the special agent pastor.
That all is very weird to me.

614
00:27:38,040 –> 00:27:41,040
Yeah, and it was weird to me.
Again, I wasn’t looking for any

615
00:27:41,040 –> 00:27:43,320
of this.
I just thought Mark Chapman was

616
00:27:43,320 –> 00:27:47,280
a guy who, to call it a cliche,
was in his bedroom listening to

617
00:27:47,280 –> 00:27:49,520
Judas Priest records backwards.
Yeah.

618
00:27:49,560 –> 00:27:52,720
Was a bit of a bit of a loser.
Snapped, got a bit obsessed

619
00:27:52,720 –> 00:27:55,320
about John Lennon and just got a
gun and rushed out and shot him

620
00:27:55,320 –> 00:27:57,800
just to because he was angry at
the world or he had mummy or

621
00:27:57,800 –> 00:27:59,520
daddy issues.
You know, just all the cliches

622
00:27:59,640 –> 00:28:01,440
that we’ve been fed about low
nuts.

623
00:28:01,760 –> 00:28:04,800
And I was surprised to find he
had quite a rich, interesting

624
00:28:04,800 –> 00:28:07,600
life, as so many of these low
nuts tend to have.

625
00:28:07,600 –> 00:28:09,840
You know, look at Lee Harvey
Oswald and his globetrotic.

626
00:28:10,160 –> 00:28:15,040
Mark came from the South Georgia
middle class family, very

627
00:28:15,040 –> 00:28:17,960
straightforward.
Dad worked in the military or

628
00:28:17,960 –> 00:28:20,560
was always a military dad
somehow then then got into

629
00:28:20,560 –> 00:28:22,160
banking.
Mum was a nurse.

630
00:28:22,160 –> 00:28:25,760
Pretty standard, bog standard
family, nothing big, no

631
00:28:25,960 –> 00:28:27,960
strangeness there.
He wasn’t particularly close to

632
00:28:27,960 –> 00:28:30,960
his sister.
It all changed for Mark round

633
00:28:30,960 –> 00:28:34,440
about sort of 1415 when he got
into LSD and he got into drugs.

634
00:28:34,480 –> 00:28:37,280
And I spoken to the guy who put
him into that.

635
00:28:37,280 –> 00:28:38,880
He doesn’t.
He wants to stay anonymous.

636
00:28:38,880 –> 00:28:41,040
The friend who did that and they
said, you know, it was the

637
00:28:41,040 –> 00:28:42,960
standard stuff.
They started to smoke a little

638
00:28:42,960 –> 00:28:44,800
bit of weed.
Then they started to do a little

639
00:28:44,800 –> 00:28:47,240
bit of this and a little bit of
that and they ended up doing

640
00:28:47,240 –> 00:28:48,760
LSDD.
So they never progressed to

641
00:28:48,760 –> 00:28:49,880
heroin.
There’s been obviously these

642
00:28:49,880 –> 00:28:51,920
things always expand and you
know, Mark was with heroin.

643
00:28:51,920 –> 00:28:55,240
He didn’t do it as far as I can
find out, but LSD was a big

644
00:28:55,240 –> 00:28:59,920
thing.
And at 15, he was identified by

645
00:28:59,920 –> 00:29:03,920
a local pastor called Charles
McGowan, who started to keep an

646
00:29:03,920 –> 00:29:05,120
eye on him, according to
Charles.

647
00:29:05,240 –> 00:29:07,480
And Charles is ex U.S.
Army and his ex

648
00:29:07,480 –> 00:29:10,000
counterintelligence for Navy
intelligence.

649
00:29:10,000 –> 00:29:13,640
So he’s not just a pastor.
He’s a heavyweight spook, right,

650
00:29:13,840 –> 00:29:15,600
Charles Miguel, which is
concerning.

651
00:29:15,800 –> 00:29:19,200
And he’s a Southern Baptist
spook at that, which is again,

652
00:29:19,200 –> 00:29:21,160
quite concerning because he what
are you?

653
00:29:21,320 –> 00:29:25,480
Are you a Spire or a priest?
I don’t like this melding

654
00:29:25,480 –> 00:29:26,920
together thing.
But anyway, that’s who he is.

655
00:29:26,920 –> 00:29:30,680
So whatever.
So what happened at 15 was Mark

656
00:29:31,000 –> 00:29:34,080
met at school a guy called
Arthur, bless it.

657
00:29:34,080 –> 00:29:35,280
I’m pretty sure that’s the stage
name.

658
00:29:35,480 –> 00:29:38,560
He was a kind of preacher who
was into, he caught himself the

659
00:29:38,560 –> 00:29:40,680
psychedelic preacher and he was
all into this kind of Jesus

660
00:29:40,680 –> 00:29:43,280
freak movement.
He was trying to convert people.

661
00:29:43,440 –> 00:29:46,280
I wouldn’t say convert.
I would say incorporate drug

662
00:29:46,280 –> 00:29:49,680
taking youth into Jesus.
I suspect he was quite happy for

663
00:29:49,680 –> 00:29:52,080
them to continue taking drugs
while they were in his flock.

664
00:29:52,600 –> 00:29:56,440
And Mark, one day he went to one
of his charismatic events at

665
00:29:56,440 –> 00:29:59,280
school and he touched Mark on
the head and said Jesus.

666
00:29:59,280 –> 00:30:01,760
And Mark fell back.
And Mark’s friend was laughing

667
00:30:01,760 –> 00:30:04,240
and joking about all this.
But something happened that day

668
00:30:04,240 –> 00:30:06,880
to Mark and he became a
converted Christian, a born

669
00:30:06,880 –> 00:30:08,720
again Christian, and he became a
Jesus freak.

670
00:30:08,720 –> 00:30:11,240
And he walked around with a big
wooden cross and brown smock

671
00:30:11,240 –> 00:30:13,000
top.
And it was he became very dull

672
00:30:14,200 –> 00:30:15,840
friends.
He started to preach to them and

673
00:30:16,040 –> 00:30:19,240
all the drugs went to one side
and he just became very, very

674
00:30:19,240 –> 00:30:21,600
evangelical.
And that’s when Charles McGowan

675
00:30:21,600 –> 00:30:25,440
really got him into his flock
and started to really keep tabs

676
00:30:25,440 –> 00:30:26,800
on him.
And that’s when Charles McGowan

677
00:30:26,800 –> 00:30:29,960
sent Mark off to see another
interesting guy called Fred

678
00:30:29,960 –> 00:30:34,520
Grouse, who was a charismatic
preacher, slash hypnotist, slash

679
00:30:34,560 –> 00:30:38,360
exorcist, very interesting and
as yet unknown guy.

680
00:30:38,400 –> 00:30:40,920
Still, this stuff about Fred
Grouse I wants to find out

681
00:30:40,920 –> 00:30:42,200
about, but I know he was a
hypnotist.

682
00:30:42,200 –> 00:30:45,840
I know he was a preacher and I
know he was into charismatic

683
00:30:45,840 –> 00:30:48,280
Christianity, and he fused all
these things together.

684
00:30:48,280 –> 00:30:50,200
And at the time, there was a
movement, would you believe

685
00:30:50,240 –> 00:30:53,720
Adam, of hypnotists and
evangelical preachers who wanted

686
00:30:53,720 –> 00:30:56,240
to fuse the two things together,
which I think is deeply

687
00:30:56,240 –> 00:30:58,240
disturbing on lots of different
levels.

688
00:30:58,320 –> 00:31:01,160
So these are the kind of people
that marks sessions with Fred

689
00:31:01,160 –> 00:31:04,560
Krauss, who he was sent to via
Charles Mcgowan’s church.

690
00:31:04,560 –> 00:31:07,680
It was all about exorcisms,
speaking in tongues.

691
00:31:07,680 –> 00:31:10,040
Mark said there were men sort of
pressing down on his chest

692
00:31:10,040 –> 00:31:11,600
demanding demons to come out of
him.

693
00:31:12,200 –> 00:31:14,280
He just said it was just deeply,
deeply disturbed.

694
00:31:14,280 –> 00:31:17,440
And if you look into mind
control and MK Ultra, one of the

695
00:31:17,440 –> 00:31:20,200
first things they say right from
beginning of the literature on

696
00:31:20,200 –> 00:31:23,360
it, on the sort of 50s and 60s
onwards, the kind of pioneer

697
00:31:23,360 –> 00:31:26,720
hypnotists say one of the best
ways to get somebody as a as a

698
00:31:26,720 –> 00:31:30,400
candidate for that is to crack
their brain first is to actually

699
00:31:30,480 –> 00:31:34,200
give them such disturbing events
that their brain becomes a much

700
00:31:34,200 –> 00:31:37,640
more easier vessel to actually
imprint a new personality onto

701
00:31:37,720 –> 00:31:39,040
it.
And one of the reasons, one of

702
00:31:39,040 –> 00:31:41,160
the things that was actually
stated way back in the

703
00:31:41,160 –> 00:31:43,720
literature was that religious
mania was a great way to do

704
00:31:43,720 –> 00:31:45,360
this.
And I’m pretty sure this was a

705
00:31:45,360 –> 00:31:48,320
very deliberate blowy by the
people that were surrounding

706
00:31:48,320 –> 00:31:52,080
Mark to get him ready for his
Manchurian Candidate program.

707
00:31:52,080 –> 00:31:55,040
And as you know, you’ve done
programs on MK Ultra, Adam, you

708
00:31:55,040 –> 00:31:57,640
know, it was a thing.
They were looking to create

709
00:31:57,640 –> 00:32:00,480
Manchurian Candidate assassins.
I think Mark Chapman was a

710
00:32:00,480 –> 00:32:03,360
Manchurian Candidate Patsy.
I don’t think they actually were

711
00:32:03,360 –> 00:32:06,880
going to rely on Mark to
actually do the kill, but like

712
00:32:06,880 –> 00:32:09,560
Sir and Sir.
And he was there to take the can

713
00:32:09,640 –> 00:32:12,000
when the event went down.
So it was all very convenient.

714
00:32:12,240 –> 00:32:15,480
So the next thing that Mark did
after his kind of sessions with

715
00:32:15,480 –> 00:32:19,600
Fred Krauss is he went to Beirut
with the YMCA, which is a bit

716
00:32:19,600 –> 00:32:21,520
odd.
And I think if you look into the

717
00:32:21,560 –> 00:32:25,960
YMCA, there are some very clear
evidence and documentation that

718
00:32:26,000 –> 00:32:27,920
they were funded indirectly by
the CIA.

719
00:32:28,000 –> 00:32:30,360
And of course, what a great
thing to do.

720
00:32:30,360 –> 00:32:34,320
You know, you fund evangelical
YMCA workers who go all over the

721
00:32:34,320 –> 00:32:39,280
world doing God’s work and they
take notes obviously for Langley

722
00:32:39,320 –> 00:32:42,640
and, you know, pass it back.
It’s, you could say that pastors

723
00:32:42,640 –> 00:32:43,880
doing this as well across the
world.

724
00:32:43,880 –> 00:32:45,960
It’s, it’s a great cover, isn’t
it, If you’re a priest or a

725
00:32:45,960 –> 00:32:48,760
religious Christian worker doing
good work in a foreign land, a

726
00:32:48,920 –> 00:32:51,000
bit like the Peace Corps, again,
same kind of thing.

727
00:32:51,000 –> 00:32:54,320
You’re out there on the surface
doing something that is good for

728
00:32:54,320 –> 00:32:56,360
others.
But you know, the funding tells

729
00:32:56,360 –> 00:32:58,600
another story.
So he comes back from Beirut.

730
00:32:58,600 –> 00:33:00,560
We’re not quite sure what he got
to in Beirut, but he said

731
00:33:00,560 –> 00:33:01,600
there’s a lot of violence out
there.

732
00:33:01,600 –> 00:33:03,760
There’s a war.
Charles McGowan, again, is

733
00:33:03,760 –> 00:33:06,720
overseeing all of this.
He said Mark came to his church

734
00:33:06,720 –> 00:33:09,720
and gave a, you know, a speech
about his adventures in Beirut.

735
00:33:09,920 –> 00:33:13,040
So Mark then starts to work at
Fort Chaffee with Vietnamese

736
00:33:13,040 –> 00:33:15,400
refugees.
And this is where a big myth

737
00:33:15,440 –> 00:33:18,480
comes in because World Vision
was also working at Fort

738
00:33:18,480 –> 00:33:20,600
Chaffee.
And World Vision is run by John

739
00:33:20,600 –> 00:33:23,600
Hinckley’s father.
And John Kinckley’s father was

740
00:33:23,600 –> 00:33:25,640
friends with the Bush family.
And I can see how people get

741
00:33:25,640 –> 00:33:29,760
very excited about that link.
I was just going to say the only

742
00:33:29,760 –> 00:33:31,880
thing because I must have missed
if.

743
00:33:31,960 –> 00:33:35,080
If that’s mentioned in the book,
I probably, I feel like I missed

744
00:33:35,080 –> 00:33:38,240
it, but I was going to say the
one thing that surprises me

745
00:33:38,240 –> 00:33:40,640
about this is that George Bush
never comes up.

746
00:33:40,880 –> 00:33:41,840
But here we go.
There he.

747
00:33:41,920 –> 00:33:43,600
Is, yeah, I mean, yeah, he’s
there.

748
00:33:44,120 –> 00:33:45,680
I, I, I think he’s there in
spirit, but he’s certainly not

749
00:33:45,680 –> 00:33:48,000
there in evidence because World
Vision actually weren’t working

750
00:33:48,000 –> 00:33:49,120
with Mark Chapman at Fort
Chaffee.

751
00:33:49,120 –> 00:33:52,160
Their their job at Fort Chaffee
was just to place Vietnamese

752
00:33:52,680 –> 00:33:56,600
orphans into Christian homes.
OK, so Mark Chapman is the YMCA

753
00:33:56,600 –> 00:33:58,200
guy was just there to play with
kids, basically.

754
00:33:58,200 –> 00:34:01,760
He was a kid kind of play
coordinator, so he had a very

755
00:34:01,760 –> 00:34:04,360
specific job there, which
apparently he enjoyed and he

756
00:34:04,360 –> 00:34:07,360
excelled in.
And World Vision had another

757
00:34:07,360 –> 00:34:10,560
specific job there, which they
did almost not on site.

758
00:34:10,600 –> 00:34:12,040
They, they kind of were like
admin.

759
00:34:12,040 –> 00:34:14,679
So when kids were down through
the camp, they’d place the

760
00:34:14,679 –> 00:34:16,400
Vietnamese kids into Christian
homes.

761
00:34:16,840 –> 00:34:19,080
And it’s really well documented
for Chaffee, you know, it was a

762
00:34:19,080 –> 00:34:21,600
government scam.
Basically, the government made a

763
00:34:21,600 –> 00:34:23,480
lot of money out of for Chaff.
There’s a lot of money in

764
00:34:23,480 –> 00:34:26,920
refugees and it cost a fortune
to run and a lot of people make

765
00:34:26,920 –> 00:34:29,600
a lot of money out of it,
including the YMCA and and World

766
00:34:29,600 –> 00:34:32,800
Vision, I’m assuming, but
there’s no proof that it was a

767
00:34:32,840 –> 00:34:35,000
World Vision plot.
To get Mark Chapman into a

768
00:34:35,000 –> 00:34:37,080
program, you don’t need Bush.
There’s plenty of other

769
00:34:37,080 –> 00:34:38,600
nefarious characters that we can
choose from.

770
00:34:38,880 –> 00:34:41,679
So I mean, I’m sure Bush was
across this to some degree

771
00:34:41,679 –> 00:34:44,400
because as I’m sure we’re going
to discuss later, there are some

772
00:34:44,400 –> 00:34:46,639
deeply disturbing links to the
people that were around Mark

773
00:34:46,639 –> 00:34:47,960
Chapman and the Reagan
administration.

774
00:34:47,960 –> 00:34:50,360
Of course, George Bush was a
vice president with Ronald

775
00:34:50,360 –> 00:34:53,880
Reagan administration, and he
also was a CRA director in 1977.

776
00:34:54,080 –> 00:34:57,560
Which neatly pulls me into the
next phase in Mark Chapman’s

777
00:34:57,560 –> 00:35:01,600
life, which was 1977, where at
the age of 22, after being a bit

778
00:35:01,600 –> 00:35:03,520
of a loser, he did a little bit
of the YMCA.

779
00:35:03,520 –> 00:35:07,120
He went to theological college,
didn’t quite cut it there, had a

780
00:35:07,120 –> 00:35:11,000
few bad relationships, just cut
a bit of a drift, a bit of a

781
00:35:11,000 –> 00:35:14,200
loser.
He kind of officially moves away

782
00:35:14,200 –> 00:35:18,040
from Charles Mcgowan’s oversight
and decides to go to Hawaii.

783
00:35:18,520 –> 00:35:21,960
Now, Mark believes that he went
to Hawaii in 77 to kill himself,

784
00:35:22,120 –> 00:35:24,720
and that’s what he’s always
thought was the reason why he

785
00:35:24,720 –> 00:35:27,440
went there.
He possibly did, possibly

786
00:35:27,440 –> 00:35:29,120
didn’t.
We know he tried to do it with a

787
00:35:29,120 –> 00:35:31,880
hose connected to his exhaust on
his car.

788
00:35:32,080 –> 00:35:34,400
Apparently a Japanese fisherman
walked past.

789
00:35:34,400 –> 00:35:38,640
And it all just sounds a little
bit too on the nose for me, this

790
00:35:38,640 –> 00:35:41,600
suicide story.
But we do know Mark thinks he

791
00:35:41,600 –> 00:35:43,880
did it.
And we do know Mark ended up in

792
00:35:43,920 –> 00:35:46,800
a mental facility in Hawaii
called the Castle Memorial

793
00:35:46,800 –> 00:35:49,840
Hospital, which was run by the
7th Day Adventists, again,

794
00:35:49,840 –> 00:35:52,240
another Christian group
surrounding Mark.

795
00:35:52,600 –> 00:35:55,920
And the 7th Day Adventists have
a history of working with the

796
00:35:55,920 –> 00:35:59,560
military, offering up their
followers for kind of chemical

797
00:35:59,560 –> 00:36:01,600
warfare experiments.
They did this in the Korean War

798
00:36:01,600 –> 00:36:03,240
because obviously their
conscientious objectors, they

799
00:36:03,240 –> 00:36:04,960
didn’t want to fight.
But they said, no, don’t worry,

800
00:36:04,960 –> 00:36:07,480
you can just go into this room
and take these drugs and see if

801
00:36:07,480 –> 00:36:09,560
you survive.
And many didn’t, you know, you

802
00:36:09,560 –> 00:36:12,360
can find a documentary on this.
They literally, some of them

803
00:36:12,360 –> 00:36:14,960
died for the experiments that
the American military did on

804
00:36:14,960 –> 00:36:16,760
them.
So that that’s the 7th Day

805
00:36:16,760 –> 00:36:18,680
Adventist for you.
So they had a very unhealthy

806
00:36:18,680 –> 00:36:20,160
relationship with the American
military.

807
00:36:20,400 –> 00:36:22,040
Chapman walks into this
hospital.

808
00:36:22,040 –> 00:36:26,200
On the surface, they treat him
and he does so well there for

809
00:36:26,200 –> 00:36:28,040
depression and various other
things.

810
00:36:28,400 –> 00:36:30,600
He does so well there that they
decide to keep him on his

811
00:36:30,600 –> 00:36:33,520
janitor, as you do.
You know, we love you, Mark.

812
00:36:33,800 –> 00:36:36,760
Come and work with us.
Someone could say, if you’re

813
00:36:36,760 –> 00:36:38,680
being a bit uncharitable, they
want to keep an eye on him and

814
00:36:38,680 –> 00:36:41,400
keep the work, whatever they’re
doing with him ongoing.

815
00:36:41,560 –> 00:36:44,200
And by having him there as a
janitor, they can carry on the

816
00:36:44,200 –> 00:36:46,200
program.
And we found out later that

817
00:36:46,200 –> 00:36:48,240
there was a program, there was a
doctor there called Doctor

818
00:36:48,240 –> 00:36:50,760
Kasahani, who was running a
brainwashing program there.

819
00:36:50,760 –> 00:36:53,000
And we know that because another
doctor that was working there

820
00:36:53,320 –> 00:36:56,360
actually whistleblowed that this
is what Kasahani was doing.

821
00:36:56,840 –> 00:36:59,320
He was doing brainwashing
programs at the exact time that

822
00:36:59,320 –> 00:37:01,760
Mark Chapman was there being
treated for his mental problems.

823
00:37:02,080 –> 00:37:03,880
So we obviously there’s no
paperwork.

824
00:37:03,880 –> 00:37:06,800
Cast Me More have lost all their
paperwork with Mark Chapman and

825
00:37:06,800 –> 00:37:08,920
all their accounting.
They weren’t released because of

826
00:37:09,080 –> 00:37:12,400
confidentiality.
So what he really got up to in

827
00:37:12,400 –> 00:37:14,480
there is kind of second hand
hearsay.

828
00:37:14,760 –> 00:37:17,920
I believe Gesahani was running a
brainwashing program there.

829
00:37:18,080 –> 00:37:22,080
What we next know is this is
what we do know for certain is

830
00:37:22,080 –> 00:37:25,800
that in 1978, while Mark Chapman
is mopping the floor, Adam in

831
00:37:25,800 –> 00:37:28,560
the Castle Memorial Hospital in
Hawaii, he decides he wants to

832
00:37:28,560 –> 00:37:30,600
travel the world on a janitor’s
wage.

833
00:37:30,880 –> 00:37:34,000
OK, that’s going to be tricky,
but that’s what he wanted to do.

834
00:37:34,080 –> 00:37:36,680
And allegedly, he got money from
two sources.

835
00:37:36,680 –> 00:37:39,040
He got it from the credit union
loan from the hospital, the

836
00:37:39,040 –> 00:37:41,160
Castle Memorial Hospital, which
is very kind of him to give him

837
00:37:41,160 –> 00:37:43,800
a loan when you consider that no
way of knowing if he’d ever pay

838
00:37:43,800 –> 00:37:47,240
it back or if he’d even returned
from his worldwide trips.

839
00:37:47,240 –> 00:37:49,920
And apparently his father, who
he wasn’t very close to,

840
00:37:50,000 –> 00:37:52,200
allegedly gave him some money
for this worldwide trip.

841
00:37:52,480 –> 00:37:55,000
Now, what’s interesting about
this trip is he kind of went

842
00:37:55,000 –> 00:37:56,080
everywhere.
He went to India.

843
00:37:56,080 –> 00:37:57,920
He went to Japan, He went to
Nepal.

844
00:37:57,920 –> 00:38:00,560
He went to Iran.
Would you believe?

845
00:38:01,600 –> 00:38:04,320
Yeah, Yeah.
Pre revolutionary Iran, as you

846
00:38:04,320 –> 00:38:06,560
do.
And at the time, it was a very

847
00:38:06,560 –> 00:38:08,880
dangerous place.
But Mark, besides, that’s where

848
00:38:08,880 –> 00:38:10,800
he wants to go after India.
He went to Europe.

849
00:38:10,800 –> 00:38:13,560
He went to Switzerland, where he
hooked up with some old YMCA

850
00:38:13,560 –> 00:38:15,080
pals and went to the United
Nations.

851
00:38:15,080 –> 00:38:16,720
Would you believe?
This is very interesting.

852
00:38:16,720 –> 00:38:18,840
He went from meeting there,
where apparently he met some

853
00:38:18,840 –> 00:38:20,920
dignitaries.
He then went to London, Paris,

854
00:38:20,920 –> 00:38:24,120
Dublin, Israel, you name it,
this guy was he was really

855
00:38:24,120 –> 00:38:25,880
moving around.
Now what’s interesting about

856
00:38:25,880 –> 00:38:27,720
this is I’ve done a bit of
digging.

857
00:38:27,760 –> 00:38:30,640
I’ve only recently found this
out that the 1st place that Mark

858
00:38:30,640 –> 00:38:34,120
went to was Japan and the 1st
place he went to in Japan in the

859
00:38:34,120 –> 00:38:37,640
summer of 1978 was Mount Fuji.
And interestingly at that exact

860
00:38:37,640 –> 00:38:42,200
time in July 1978, staying at
Mount Fuji, would you believe

861
00:38:42,200 –> 00:38:45,560
Adam was John Lennon, Yoko Ono
and Sean Lennon.

862
00:38:46,520 –> 00:38:50,480
So Mark Chapman just decides to
start his worldwide trip in

863
00:38:50,480 –> 00:38:54,840
Japan at Mount Fuji at the exact
time that their lemons are

864
00:38:54,840 –> 00:38:57,880
there.
I’m sorry, that’s that’s a

865
00:38:57,880 –> 00:38:59,640
coincidence that I’m just not
going to buy.

866
00:38:59,880 –> 00:39:01,040
Now.
What’s interesting is Adam, he’s

867
00:39:01,040 –> 00:39:02,920
never mentioned this.
You’d think that The Beatles

868
00:39:02,920 –> 00:39:04,960
obsessive Mark Chan would say,
oh, it’s amazing.

869
00:39:04,960 –> 00:39:08,200
It’s such a strange thing.
I was in Mount Fuji and you know

870
00:39:08,200 –> 00:39:10,200
the and it was a big thing at
the time when the lemons were in

871
00:39:10,200 –> 00:39:11,640
Japan.
It was in the media and it was

872
00:39:11,640 –> 00:39:13,720
obviously it would have been the
Japanese media for sure.

873
00:39:13,880 –> 00:39:15,680
But Mark just happens to be
there at the same time.

874
00:39:15,680 –> 00:39:17,360
There was another location.
I can’t quite think of it.

875
00:39:17,360 –> 00:39:21,080
Now, a very affluent location in
Tokyo, forget the name of that

876
00:39:21,080 –> 00:39:24,640
begins with G But anyway, Lennon
was there and Mark was there at

877
00:39:24,640 –> 00:39:27,040
the same time.
So he seems to be kind of

878
00:39:27,040 –> 00:39:31,120
shadowing Lennon in Japan, Tokyo
in 1978.

879
00:39:31,120 –> 00:39:33,160
Now, you would think, well, if
he was still there to do

880
00:39:33,160 –> 00:39:36,400
something nefarious, why would
he be sort of tracking John

881
00:39:36,400 –> 00:39:38,120
Lennon in 78?
John Lennon wasn’t doing

882
00:39:38,120 –> 00:39:40,320
anything in 78.
You know, his comeback was 1980,

883
00:39:40,760 –> 00:39:42,400
but actually in 1970.
Oh, do you believe that?

884
00:39:42,400 –> 00:39:45,520
I’m in the spring of 1978, John
and Yoko made an announcement.

885
00:39:45,520 –> 00:39:47,640
They were going to do a Broadway
musical called The Balloon of

886
00:39:47,640 –> 00:39:49,360
John and Yoko with new songs.
They’re going to do a big

887
00:39:49,360 –> 00:39:52,560
comeback.
So potentially nefarious people

888
00:39:52,560 –> 00:39:54,680
that were controlling Mark in
Hawaii might have thought, you

889
00:39:54,680 –> 00:39:57,560
know, what, if John’s making a
comeback in 78, Mark’s gone

890
00:39:57,560 –> 00:40:00,280
through 12 months of our
programming with Kasahani.

891
00:40:00,560 –> 00:40:02,320
Now’s the time to send him out
to Mount Fuji.

892
00:40:02,400 –> 00:40:04,800
But what’s odd is Mark doesn’t
remember any of this.

893
00:40:05,200 –> 00:40:08,840
Wow, He remembers the trip.
There’s lots of photography of

894
00:40:08,840 –> 00:40:10,840
the trip.
Of Mark standing there in all

895
00:40:10,840 –> 00:40:12,880
these Taj Mahal and all these
amazing places.

896
00:40:13,080 –> 00:40:14,960
We’re not quite sure who took
the pictures.

897
00:40:15,160 –> 00:40:17,160
Maybe Mark was very trusting and
gave his camera away to

898
00:40:17,160 –> 00:40:20,680
strangers everywhere he went.
But there’s some cameo shots of

899
00:40:20,680 –> 00:40:23,680
Mark walking off into the very
Instagram friendly today.

900
00:40:23,680 –> 00:40:25,640
Mark walking off into the
distance kind of Instagram

901
00:40:25,640 –> 00:40:27,080
shots.
That’s not a shot.

902
00:40:27,080 –> 00:40:29,840
That’s that you don’t give a guy
a stranger with the camera and

903
00:40:29,960 –> 00:40:32,080
go, I’m just going to walk off
into the distance and I want you

904
00:40:32,080 –> 00:40:33,960
to take a picture of me.
You just don’t do that, do you?

905
00:40:34,120 –> 00:40:38,400
So, you know, so someone was
with him on this trip or someone

906
00:40:38,400 –> 00:40:39,720
was with him for part of this
trip.

907
00:40:39,760 –> 00:40:44,880
Now, this trip was arranged for
Mark by a woman called Gloria

908
00:40:44,880 –> 00:40:47,360
Chapman, who’s a travel agent.
And she was a couple of years

909
00:40:47,360 –> 00:40:49,960
older than Mark.
And Gloria became Mark’s wife.

910
00:40:50,240 –> 00:40:54,280
Some uncharted people may say
Mark’s handler to this day.

911
00:40:54,320 –> 00:40:56,680
You need to if you want to get
to Mark, you’ve got to go.

912
00:40:56,680 –> 00:40:59,840
Actually, Gloria, I approached
Gloria in all innocence a few

913
00:40:59,840 –> 00:41:01,680
years back and said, look, I’m
looking into your husband’s

914
00:41:01,680 –> 00:41:03,520
case.
We need to talk.

915
00:41:03,600 –> 00:41:05,160
I’ve got some anomalies you
should know about.

916
00:41:05,160 –> 00:41:07,400
And she just came back and said
I’ve spoken to Mark about your

917
00:41:07,400 –> 00:41:11,160
requests now in in those kind of
words, which was basically

918
00:41:11,160 –> 00:41:15,480
saying, forget it, pal, you’re
not, you know, I didn’t ask her

919
00:41:15,480 –> 00:41:18,040
to speak to Mark, by the way,
but I think she was basically

920
00:41:18,040 –> 00:41:20,080
saying to me, I’m in control
here.

921
00:41:20,280 –> 00:41:21,600
I’m not interested.
Yeah.

922
00:41:21,640 –> 00:41:23,600
So it was quite, it was very
interesting reply.

923
00:41:23,600 –> 00:41:25,800
For a so-called loving wife,
you’d think a loving wife would

924
00:41:25,800 –> 00:41:27,160
go.
But what are the anomalies?

925
00:41:27,480 –> 00:41:30,520
Yeah, at the very least because
she’s apparently waiting for

926
00:41:30,520 –> 00:41:32,360
Mark and still holding the
flame.

927
00:41:32,680 –> 00:41:36,480
Yeah, she’s an interesting
character in all of this.

928
00:41:36,480 –> 00:41:40,520
For sure, for sure.
There’s that phone call that she

929
00:41:40,520 –> 00:41:44,160
said she received when this all
happened, and it seems like

930
00:41:44,160 –> 00:41:47,120
there’s no way well.
She made the phone call because

931
00:41:47,120 –> 00:41:49,080
she actually made it herself and
recorded it.

932
00:41:49,080 –> 00:41:52,000
What’s interesting about Gloria
is she really had nothing to do

933
00:41:52,000 –> 00:41:54,120
with Mark Chapman.
I mean, it was a bit of A to eat

934
00:41:54,120 –> 00:41:56,280
Blues and you know, she was
quite attractive.

935
00:41:56,280 –> 00:41:59,400
Gloria, a bit old, a bit more
worldly, apparently had a

936
00:41:59,400 –> 00:42:01,880
slightly I don’t think she’s
were promiscuous, but she had a

937
00:42:01,880 –> 00:42:04,760
slightly immoral.
That was the word she used life

938
00:42:05,600 –> 00:42:07,400
when she was a travel agent
travelling the world.

939
00:42:07,400 –> 00:42:09,360
Some could say that that might
have got her into some

940
00:42:09,360 –> 00:42:11,640
compromising positions where she
might have been easily

941
00:42:11,640 –> 00:42:13,880
manipulated to do things.
But anyway, Mark walks into a

942
00:42:13,880 –> 00:42:17,680
travel agency in Hawaii to book
his amazing, fabulous around the

943
00:42:17,680 –> 00:42:19,480
world trip, talks to someone
else.

944
00:42:19,680 –> 00:42:22,360
And Gloria says she saw him talk
to someone else and she made

945
00:42:22,360 –> 00:42:27,000
sure that she got Mark’s number
and name and number and she rang

946
00:42:27,000 –> 00:42:29,880
Mark and she took over the job.
So she pursued Mark and she

947
00:42:29,880 –> 00:42:32,080
pursued the gig to become his
travel agent.

948
00:42:32,360 –> 00:42:34,400
And if you look at a postcard
that Mark St.

949
00:42:34,400 –> 00:42:39,120
Gloria from India talking about
his upcoming trip to Iran, it’s

950
00:42:39,120 –> 00:42:42,720
very lovey dovey.
It’s very intimate.

951
00:42:42,720 –> 00:42:43,920
It’s like, I can’t wait to see
you again.

952
00:42:43,920 –> 00:42:46,280
And we’ll go for a walk in that
place that we’d like to go to.

953
00:42:46,280 –> 00:42:49,760
It seems like it’s not someone
who’s just met a travel agent a

954
00:42:49,760 –> 00:42:52,720
few times and is thankful that
she arranged this great trip.

955
00:42:53,040 –> 00:42:55,280
So that relationship was odd
right from the start.

956
00:42:55,640 –> 00:42:58,560
But when Mark came back from
this amazing trip, she’s there

957
00:42:58,560 –> 00:43:00,520
waiting at the airport.
He wasn’t apparently expecting

958
00:43:00,520 –> 00:43:01,440
her.
She’s got crutches.

959
00:43:01,440 –> 00:43:04,360
She broke her foot.
She was determined to be there

960
00:43:04,360 –> 00:43:07,040
at the carousel as his luggage
is coming round.

961
00:43:07,160 –> 00:43:08,880
And he said he got his luggage
off the carousel.

962
00:43:08,880 –> 00:43:09,920
He turned around.
There’s Gloria.

963
00:43:09,920 –> 00:43:11,400
And she just sort of flung
herself on him.

964
00:43:11,760 –> 00:43:15,320
So Gloria made sure, yeah, she
made sure she was going to get

965
00:43:15,320 –> 00:43:17,360
into Mark’s life.
And she did get into Mark’s

966
00:43:17,360 –> 00:43:18,480
life.
And a year later they got

967
00:43:18,480 –> 00:43:21,080
married and she’s been in Mark’s
life ever since.

968
00:43:21,360 –> 00:43:24,400
What’s disturbing about Gloria
is there’s so many disturbing

969
00:43:24,400 –> 00:43:25,840
things about what?
I don’t know where to begin, but

970
00:43:25,840 –> 00:43:27,120
but let’s just go with the
murder.

971
00:43:27,360 –> 00:43:31,240
So when when Mark started to
become compelled to assassinate

972
00:43:31,240 –> 00:43:34,320
John Lennon or murder John
Lennon in the summer of 1982,

973
00:43:34,320 –> 00:43:36,200
things happened.
One, he got into the capture and

974
00:43:36,200 –> 00:43:38,480
run in the summer nights that he
was never obsessed about it when

975
00:43:38,480 –> 00:43:39,960
he was a child.
There’s no evidence for that.

976
00:43:40,280 –> 00:43:43,200
It happened in summer of 1980.
And he also got obsessed about

977
00:43:43,200 –> 00:43:45,320
Lennon in the summer of 1980.
And those two things shoes

978
00:43:45,320 –> 00:43:47,520
together also, we could start
the summer of 1980.

979
00:43:47,520 –> 00:43:49,360
That’s when John Lennon got back
into the studio.

980
00:43:49,480 –> 00:43:51,920
So he got active again.
And Ronald Reagan was a shooting

981
00:43:51,920 –> 00:43:54,360
to become the the president in
November, which is what

982
00:43:54,360 –> 00:43:56,360
happened.
So all these things coalesce.

983
00:43:56,480 –> 00:43:59,680
Interestingly, in the summer of
1980, Mark went on an aborted

984
00:43:59,680 –> 00:44:03,440
mission compulsion to shoot John
Lennon at the end of October

985
00:44:03,440 –> 00:44:05,080
1980.
And the first few days of

986
00:44:05,080 –> 00:44:08,000
November 1980, he didn’t go
through with it.

987
00:44:08,320 –> 00:44:11,920
He flew back and when he flew
back to Hawaii, he walks into

988
00:44:11,920 –> 00:44:14,160
Gloria.
They both admitted this.

989
00:44:14,320 –> 00:44:16,680
He put a gun down on the table.
He put some bullets down on the

990
00:44:16,680 –> 00:44:18,200
table and he said, I’ve just
gone to New York.

991
00:44:18,200 –> 00:44:20,800
So I felt compelled to shoot
John Lennon, but your love for

992
00:44:20,800 –> 00:44:23,760
me, blah, blah, blah, not going
to do it.

993
00:44:23,840 –> 00:44:26,920
And I managed to.
Your love for me saved me or

994
00:44:26,920 –> 00:44:29,200
something like that.
So Gloria knew he did this.

995
00:44:29,440 –> 00:44:33,320
Four weeks later, 3 1/2 weeks
later, Gloria books Mark tickets

996
00:44:33,320 –> 00:44:37,640
to New York and drives him to
the airport so he can fly off to

997
00:44:37,640 –> 00:44:40,800
New York via Chicago.
Some people say 3rd of December,

998
00:44:41,080 –> 00:44:43,120
some people say 6th of December.
Take your pick.

999
00:44:43,120 –> 00:44:45,320
I don’t think I’m not too
bothered about this so-called

1000
00:44:45,320 –> 00:44:48,320
stay over in Chicago.
Mark’s programming happened way

1001
00:44:48,320 –> 00:44:52,640
before Chicago and Gloria must
have known well, she did know

1002
00:44:52,720 –> 00:44:55,920
that her husband just a few
weeks earlier had said that he

1003
00:44:55,920 –> 00:44:57,400
went to New York, the show that
began to shoot John.

1004
00:44:57,400 –> 00:44:59,520
And but yet she’s still happy to
book him tickets and drums in

1005
00:44:59,520 –> 00:45:01,280
the airport for him to go back
there again.

1006
00:45:01,680 –> 00:45:07,080
So that alone means that she’s
the very minimum and accomplice

1007
00:45:07,080 –> 00:45:10,120
to some degree to all this.
She’s it’s just it just

1008
00:45:10,120 –> 00:45:12,200
shouldn’t be like that.
So then we get to the amazing

1009
00:45:12,200 –> 00:45:15,480
thing on them on the night of
the murder, she calls Mark up at

1010
00:45:15,480 –> 00:45:18,880
the 20th Precinct police station
where Mark’s being held round

1011
00:45:18,880 –> 00:45:21,120
about 2:30.
Now, the problem with that is

1012
00:45:21,120 –> 00:45:24,720
Mark’s name hadn’t actually been
released to the media at that

1013
00:45:24,720 –> 00:45:27,400
point, but that that’s fine.
She knew he went there to shoot

1014
00:45:27,400 –> 00:45:29,280
him a month earlier.
So I’m pretty sure when it came

1015
00:45:29,280 –> 00:45:33,040
on the news, she knew she knew
Mark had done it or allegedly

1016
00:45:33,040 –> 00:45:35,000
done it.
So she calls out the 20th

1017
00:45:35,000 –> 00:45:36,840
Precinct.
It gets put through and she’s

1018
00:45:36,840 –> 00:45:39,040
there chatting to Mark.
And she’s like, yeah, do you

1019
00:45:39,040 –> 00:45:41,600
know you’ve done some very
awkward conversation?

1020
00:45:42,000 –> 00:45:44,320
You can tell they want to say
more, but they know they’re

1021
00:45:44,320 –> 00:45:45,920
being recorded.
And we know they’re being

1022
00:45:45,920 –> 00:45:48,560
recorded because Gloria actually
said that she recorded all their

1023
00:45:48,560 –> 00:45:51,480
conversations from their flat.
She said they had a recording

1024
00:45:51,480 –> 00:45:53,120
device to record their telephone
conversation.

1025
00:45:53,160 –> 00:45:55,320
Now, why are you doing that,
Gloria, while they’re loving?

1026
00:45:55,720 –> 00:45:57,360
That’s really weird.
And it had to be analogue,

1027
00:45:57,360 –> 00:45:59,440
remember in 1980?
So it’s not a digital thing.

1028
00:45:59,440 –> 00:46:01,800
She had to set it all up, press,
play and record.

1029
00:46:02,000 –> 00:46:03,240
And so she wanted a record of
this.

1030
00:46:03,240 –> 00:46:06,720
And we know she did this because
she went on Barbara Waters 10

1031
00:46:06,720 –> 00:46:08,320
years ago.
And she played the tape.

1032
00:46:08,600 –> 00:46:10,760
You can see on my YouTube
channel, she’s actually there,

1033
00:46:10,760 –> 00:46:14,520
said hi, it’s the Gloria.
I’m the wife of the murderer.

1034
00:46:14,520 –> 00:46:16,440
I’m the wife of Mark Chapman.
Now, can I speak to him?

1035
00:46:16,720 –> 00:46:20,320
So she called in and Arthur
O’Connor, the head of detective,

1036
00:46:20,320 –> 00:46:22,920
not the head of Texas, a
Lieutenant Detective Arthur

1037
00:46:22,920 –> 00:46:25,240
O’Connor at the time said to a
guy called Fenton Brezza in the

1038
00:46:25,240 –> 00:46:27,280
80s.
The minute that phone call came

1039
00:46:27,280 –> 00:46:29,000
in, he said, I knew it was a
conspiracy.

1040
00:46:29,000 –> 00:46:30,520
So I just thought, this is a
conspiracy.

1041
00:46:30,520 –> 00:46:33,080
How the hell did she know he was
staying here?

1042
00:46:33,240 –> 00:46:36,200
It’s just impossible to know.
And he said Mark Chapman, this

1043
00:46:36,200 –> 00:46:38,520
same Lieutenant O’Connor said
Mark Chapman to him appear

1044
00:46:38,520 –> 00:46:40,680
programmed.
He said he just, you know, he’d

1045
00:46:40,680 –> 00:46:43,000
feel he looked like a kind of
robot kind of guy.

1046
00:46:43,520 –> 00:46:47,880
So Gloria at that point made
sure she stayed the loving wife

1047
00:46:47,880 –> 00:46:50,640
outside the Mark Chapman prison
experience.

1048
00:46:51,000 –> 00:46:53,800
And she always played portrayed
herself as a kind of wife

1049
00:46:53,800 –> 00:46:56,880
waiting in the wings for Mark to
eventually be released.

1050
00:46:57,200 –> 00:47:00,640
But one thing Gloria ended
almost immediately after Mark

1051
00:47:00,640 –> 00:47:03,640
was incarcerated was she started
to kind of work with two

1052
00:47:03,640 –> 00:47:05,040
journalists.
Journal called Jim Gaines,

1053
00:47:05,200 –> 00:47:07,760
journalist called Jack Jones for
the next 20-30 years and

1054
00:47:07,760 –> 00:47:11,200
basically gave Jim and Jack all
the info they needed regarding

1055
00:47:11,200 –> 00:47:14,400
kind of calendars with sort of
weird writing on and stories of

1056
00:47:14,400 –> 00:47:17,880
Mark, prance of the devil and
all this crazy stuff.

1057
00:47:17,920 –> 00:47:21,560
You know, she couldn’t give them
enough salacious, undocumented,

1058
00:47:21,560 –> 00:47:25,680
unprovable stuff, but she was
kind of there cheerleading on

1059
00:47:25,680 –> 00:47:29,480
their kind of attempts, these
two journalists, to vilify Mark

1060
00:47:29,640 –> 00:47:33,960
and to make him out to be some
kind of crazy guy who was always

1061
00:47:33,960 –> 00:47:36,160
obsessed with John Lennon.
When the proof, the actual

1062
00:47:36,160 –> 00:47:38,280
evidence of that is he was never
obsessed with John Lennon.

1063
00:47:38,520 –> 00:47:40,160
John Lennon wasn’t a big part of
his life.

1064
00:47:40,160 –> 00:47:41,520
He wasn’t obsessed with The
Beatles.

1065
00:47:41,760 –> 00:47:45,320
And his obsession slash
compulsion to shoot John only

1066
00:47:45,320 –> 00:47:49,480
occurred in July 1990.
I found it really interesting

1067
00:47:49,480 –> 00:47:54,840
how The Catcher in the Rye and
the role of that book has kind

1068
00:47:54,840 –> 00:47:58,680
of changed over the years.
And I found it really

1069
00:47:58,680 –> 00:48:02,360
interesting that when they first
interviewed Mark Chapman, his

1070
00:48:02,360 –> 00:48:04,160
whole thing was The Catcher in
the Rye.

1071
00:48:04,160 –> 00:48:06,240
That’s why I did it.
And it seemed like they were

1072
00:48:06,240 –> 00:48:11,080
actively trying to talk him out
of that talking point and shift

1073
00:48:11,080 –> 00:48:13,080
him more toward, no, it was John
Lennon.

1074
00:48:13,080 –> 00:48:15,040
You did it because you were
obsessed with.

1075
00:48:15,040 –> 00:48:18,360
John yeah, it’s interesting.
I think, and I put this in my

1076
00:48:18,360 –> 00:48:21,400
book, that first statement that
he gave round about sort of 1:00

1077
00:48:21,520 –> 00:48:25,320
AM in the 20th Precinct to a
couple of detectives, and Mark

1078
00:48:25,320 –> 00:48:26,560
signed it.
He didn’t write it down.

1079
00:48:26,560 –> 00:48:29,000
It was written by the detective,
but Mark did sign it.

1080
00:48:29,200 –> 00:48:31,520
And I’ve got a copy of this
document.

1081
00:48:32,120 –> 00:48:35,400
And so this happened, let’s say,
two hours after he allegedly

1082
00:48:35,400 –> 00:48:37,240
thought he shot John.
And what’s interesting in it,

1083
00:48:37,240 –> 00:48:39,640
Adam, is it’s a guy.
It’s not a guy.

1084
00:48:39,640 –> 00:48:41,360
We’ve always been told he shot
John and to be famous.

1085
00:48:41,480 –> 00:48:45,160
So you think like Lee Harvey
Oswald should have said, yeah, I

1086
00:48:45,160 –> 00:48:47,800
killed him and and I’m glad I
killed him and now I’m famous.

1087
00:48:48,000 –> 00:48:50,120
But he didn’t did it.
Lee Harvey was when I’m passing.

1088
00:48:50,120 –> 00:48:52,560
So it straight away kind of
blows there.

1089
00:48:52,560 –> 00:48:53,840
That blows.
There’s that story.

1090
00:48:54,040 –> 00:48:56,480
And with Chapman, what you’d
expect him to say is if he shot

1091
00:48:56,480 –> 00:48:58,800
John And for fame, yeah, I’m
famous now.

1092
00:48:58,800 –> 00:49:00,600
My name is Mark Chapman.
Don’t forget to get the spelling

1093
00:49:00,600 –> 00:49:02,680
right, CHAPM.
And that’s not the guy.

1094
00:49:03,040 –> 00:49:05,600
The guy that we got at 1:00 AM
in the 20th Precinct is

1095
00:49:05,600 –> 00:49:08,240
basically saying, I don’t really
know what I’ve just done.

1096
00:49:08,280 –> 00:49:10,520
I’m a bit confused.
I’ve got nothing against John

1097
00:49:10,520 –> 00:49:11,720
Lennon.
I’ve got nothing against The

1098
00:49:11,720 –> 00:49:13,840
Beatles.
I kind of don’t really remember

1099
00:49:13,840 –> 00:49:15,720
aiming.
I remember thinking it’s a bit

1100
00:49:15,720 –> 00:49:19,120
weird that my bullets are
working and I kind of, I don’t,

1101
00:49:19,200 –> 00:49:21,480
I’m confused.
And he’s kind of like he talks

1102
00:49:21,480 –> 00:49:24,400
about a big part and a small
part, but he doesn’t mention

1103
00:49:24,400 –> 00:49:26,440
capturing the right.
But you’re right, in the next

1104
00:49:26,440 –> 00:49:30,560
few days after that, the lawyers
get in there and they start to

1105
00:49:30,560 –> 00:49:33,320
mention that market and, and
they, his pastor, Charles

1106
00:49:33,320 –> 00:49:36,000
McGowan, of course, flies
straight in to get involved in

1107
00:49:36,000 –> 00:49:38,400
the action.
And Mark starts to talk about

1108
00:49:38,400 –> 00:49:40,400
capturing the riot almost
obsessively.

1109
00:49:40,400 –> 00:49:42,680
So I I did it because I want to
promote this book.

1110
00:49:43,000 –> 00:49:44,240
I thought I was holding
Caulfield.

1111
00:49:44,240 –> 00:49:47,400
It was almost like from the
night of the murder, probably 24

1112
00:49:47,400 –> 00:49:50,440
hours after that sort of
operation Catching the rye is

1113
00:49:50,440 –> 00:49:51,960
now and they’re happy to do
this.

1114
00:49:52,240 –> 00:49:55,440
And we’ve got sort of some
evidence that some of these

1115
00:49:55,440 –> 00:49:58,280
psychiatrists slash hypnotists
who got into Mark Chapman sell

1116
00:49:58,640 –> 00:50:00,920
were happy to talk to Mark about
Catching the Rye and he’s

1117
00:50:00,920 –> 00:50:03,720
holding Caulfield and it’s a
great books from Mark Mark and

1118
00:50:03,720 –> 00:50:06,760
they were kind of goading along
and they were quite happy to go

1119
00:50:06,760 –> 00:50:09,800
with this narrative and this
narrative stayed in place in the

1120
00:50:09,800 –> 00:50:11,960
next three months.
But then some, what happened in

1121
00:50:11,960 –> 00:50:16,400
March 1981 was Adam is that John
Hinckley tried to shoot Ronald

1122
00:50:16,400 –> 00:50:19,840
Reagan and in his hotel room,
Hinckley had a copy of Capturing

1123
00:50:19,840 –> 00:50:21,520
the right.
And I’m pretty sure at this

1124
00:50:21,520 –> 00:50:24,120
point the powers that be that
were controlling Mark thought,

1125
00:50:24,120 –> 00:50:27,360
you know what, that’s two famous
assassinations connected to this

1126
00:50:27,360 –> 00:50:29,000
book.
We need to get Mark off

1127
00:50:29,000 –> 00:50:31,200
Capturing the Rye.
And from that point onwards,

1128
00:50:31,280 –> 00:50:34,920
Operation Demon came into
operation and basically a load

1129
00:50:34,920 –> 00:50:38,920
of the Fred Kraus type exorcists
started to pile into Mark

1130
00:50:38,920 –> 00:50:41,240
Chapman’s cell.
And for the next few years, he

1131
00:50:41,240 –> 00:50:44,760
went through some it’s just
abuse, just mental abuse, where

1132
00:50:44,760 –> 00:50:47,720
these guys were convincing him
that he was obsessed by demons

1133
00:50:47,720 –> 00:50:50,760
and they were exercising these
demons from him and it was just

1134
00:50:50,760 –> 00:50:52,600
abhorrent what they did to it
was like gaslighting.

1135
00:50:52,600 –> 00:50:54,320
You didn’t do it.
You captured it, make you do it,

1136
00:50:54,320 –> 00:50:56,040
Mark.
Your obsession with John Lennon

1137
00:50:56,040 –> 00:50:58,000
didn’t make you do it, Mark.
Now demons made you do it, Mark.

1138
00:50:58,000 –> 00:51:01,320
And even to this very day, Mark
thinks that demons controlled

1139
00:51:01,320 –> 00:51:03,120
him to kill John Leon.
Because I think they needed a

1140
00:51:03,120 –> 00:51:05,000
narrative that they will come to
win, that Mark will be

1141
00:51:05,000 –> 00:51:06,880
comfortable with, that they
could have moved forward with.

1142
00:51:07,280 –> 00:51:09,280
But I actually interested in
Madam.

1143
00:51:09,280 –> 00:51:11,360
I don’t think Mark Chapman was
meant to live.

1144
00:51:11,520 –> 00:51:13,320
I think Mark Chapman was
shooting blanks, which is what I

1145
00:51:13,320 –> 00:51:15,640
think Sir and Sarah was doing.
And I think Lisa Peace has got

1146
00:51:15,640 –> 00:51:17,120
that theory as well with Sarah
and Sarah.

1147
00:51:17,360 –> 00:51:19,240
And I think the second shoot was
in the vestibule.

1148
00:51:19,320 –> 00:51:20,760
It was would have been a
contained area.

1149
00:51:20,760 –> 00:51:23,120
They knew John was coming into
after hearing the bullets behind

1150
00:51:23,120 –> 00:51:24,120
him.
He rushed in there.

1151
00:51:24,280 –> 00:51:25,400
I think that’s where he was
shot.

1152
00:51:25,400 –> 00:51:27,520
Interestingly, the lead
detective has told me that’s

1153
00:51:27,520 –> 00:51:28,880
where he was killed.
Yeah.

1154
00:51:28,880 –> 00:51:31,160
I said to Ron Hoffman, where was
John shot?

1155
00:51:31,160 –> 00:51:33,240
He said he was shot in the
vestibule on the stairway.

1156
00:51:33,680 –> 00:51:36,120
I’ve got him on tape saying that
and he actually says it outside

1157
00:51:36,120 –> 00:51:37,240
the hospital on the night of the
murder.

1158
00:51:37,240 –> 00:51:39,840
Again, you can go to my YouTube
channel Assassination of Lennon

1159
00:51:39,840 –> 00:51:42,760
and you can see Ron Hoffman in
some news rushes outside the

1160
00:51:42,760 –> 00:51:45,360
hospital just after John’s been
called dead and he basically

1161
00:51:45,360 –> 00:51:47,320
says he was shot inside the
vestibule.

1162
00:51:47,560 –> 00:51:50,000
So Mark Chapman can’t shoot him
inside the vestibule.

1163
00:51:50,000 –> 00:51:53,520
He can’t do it.
I think it went wrong because I

1164
00:51:53,520 –> 00:51:56,120
don’t think the one thing I
don’t they wanted was a Mark

1165
00:51:56,120 –> 00:51:59,600
Chapman going back to the 20th
Precinct and saying, I don’t

1166
00:51:59,600 –> 00:52:02,120
quite know what I did.
I’m a bit confused if he was

1167
00:52:02,120 –> 00:52:05,240
dead this game over.
And I think there’s two ways I

1168
00:52:05,240 –> 00:52:08,240
think they wanted to do it.
I think possibly the programming

1169
00:52:08,240 –> 00:52:11,480
was to commit suicide after he
did whatever he thought he was

1170
00:52:11,480 –> 00:52:14,240
doing.
And there’s a display, a hotel

1171
00:52:14,240 –> 00:52:16,800
display in his room that he did
on the morning of the murder,

1172
00:52:16,800 –> 00:52:19,760
which looks, which Mark Chapman
has even admitted looks like a

1173
00:52:19,760 –> 00:52:22,560
suicide note in kind of item
form.

1174
00:52:22,560 –> 00:52:24,280
It’s photos.
And there’s the Bible and

1175
00:52:24,280 –> 00:52:26,120
there’s a few mementos of his
life.

1176
00:52:26,640 –> 00:52:28,960
And I think that was potentially
what they were hoping would

1177
00:52:28,960 –> 00:52:31,120
happen.
Or I think they were hoping for

1178
00:52:31,120 –> 00:52:33,120
Mark to run.
And there’d be a Jack Ruby type

1179
00:52:33,120 –> 00:52:36,440
character, a vigilante cop or a
vigilante member of the public

1180
00:52:36,800 –> 00:52:40,200
who would be ready to tackle
Mark as he runs into Central

1181
00:52:40,200 –> 00:52:43,560
Park or down 72nd St. and
confront him and shoot him and

1182
00:52:43,560 –> 00:52:45,640
kill him.
And we know this interestingly

1183
00:52:45,640 –> 00:52:49,400
because Jose Padermo went up to
Mark and Mark said this is he

1184
00:52:49,400 –> 00:52:51,880
heard Jose say this and said get
out of here, just get out of

1185
00:52:51,880 –> 00:52:53,880
here, just run, which Mark
didn’t see so.

1186
00:52:53,920 –> 00:52:55,440
Strange.
So strange.

1187
00:52:55,480 –> 00:52:59,120
And we know he said more because
Nina Rosen, good old Nina Rosen,

1188
00:52:59,360 –> 00:53:02,880
said something that she heard.
She said she heard the demo say

1189
00:53:02,880 –> 00:53:05,760
to Chapman, the doorman, say to
the man, she said, you better

1190
00:53:05,760 –> 00:53:07,440
get out of here soon because the
cops will be here.

1191
00:53:07,680 –> 00:53:09,160
Now.
That’s not just get out of here

1192
00:53:09,160 –> 00:53:11,240
because I’m scared of you.
That’s a warning.

1193
00:53:11,440 –> 00:53:13,720
That’s a warning that I think an
accomplice would give to another

1194
00:53:13,720 –> 00:53:15,760
accomplice to this is all going
wrong.

1195
00:53:15,920 –> 00:53:18,040
Get the hell out of here.
But he didn’t get out.

1196
00:53:18,040 –> 00:53:20,080
They stood there and he said he
didn’t know what to do.

1197
00:53:20,080 –> 00:53:22,080
He got the book out.
He said the words were all

1198
00:53:22,080 –> 00:53:24,360
getting jumbled on.
I think he malfunctioned and I

1199
00:53:24,360 –> 00:53:27,240
don’t, I think the last thing
they wanted him to do was to

1200
00:53:27,240 –> 00:53:30,560
stand there and be arrested.
Because once that happened, all

1201
00:53:30,560 –> 00:53:32,880
hell broke loose.
And, you know, and the people

1202
00:53:32,880 –> 00:53:36,680
that rushed to his side and the
people that tried to get into

1203
00:53:36,680 –> 00:53:40,080
his cell in the days, in the
hours and days after the murder,

1204
00:53:40,280 –> 00:53:42,160
I think really reveal
themselves.

1205
00:53:42,200 –> 00:53:46,320
I mean really reveal themselves
and reveal the plot and reveal

1206
00:53:46,320 –> 00:53:49,480
who was perhaps behind the plot.
I’m gonna ask a weird question.

1207
00:53:49,480 –> 00:53:51,960
What is your stance on Darren
Brown?

1208
00:53:52,200 –> 00:53:56,960
And the reason I ask is because
it’s the mind control in the

1209
00:53:56,960 –> 00:54:01,040
brainwashing that people always
have a problem with.

1210
00:54:01,520 –> 00:54:05,080
And what I always mentioned is
Darren Brown did this TV show

1211
00:54:05,280 –> 00:54:09,520
where he basically went through
the steps that I think it was

1212
00:54:09,520 –> 00:54:12,880
Sirhan Sirhan was alleged to
have gone through to see if he

1213
00:54:12,880 –> 00:54:17,280
could basically manipulate
someone into shooting Stephen

1214
00:54:17,280 –> 00:54:19,560
Fry.
And it worked.

1215
00:54:20,040 –> 00:54:22,120
And whenever I bring that up,
people are like, well, that was

1216
00:54:22,120 –> 00:54:24,280
fake too.
And it’s like, was it?

1217
00:54:24,320 –> 00:54:27,520
I don’t know, but what is your
stance on that?

1218
00:54:27,920 –> 00:54:30,720
Yeah, I’m, I’m still
uncomfortable with hypnotism.

1219
00:54:31,040 –> 00:54:32,280
I don’t know.
I’m uncomfortable.

1220
00:54:32,280 –> 00:54:34,360
I really AM.
And because I I’d like to think

1221
00:54:34,360 –> 00:54:36,440
I wouldn’t be.
It wouldn’t happen to me and I

1222
00:54:36,440 –> 00:54:38,640
wouldn’t allow it to be.
I I think when you study it,

1223
00:54:39,040 –> 00:54:40,600
look into it, I’m sure you have
as well.

1224
00:54:40,960 –> 00:54:42,680
Certain people are more
susceptible than others.

1225
00:54:42,680 –> 00:54:45,160
I think Mark Chapman was a
classic characters and very

1226
00:54:45,280 –> 00:54:47,200
people pleaser want to be kind
of guy.

1227
00:54:47,600 –> 00:54:50,800
And, you know, only some people
are kind of usable in in that

1228
00:54:50,800 –> 00:54:52,240
spectrum.
Darren Brown.

1229
00:54:52,240 –> 00:54:54,960
I yeah, I mean, I’ve not managed
to speak to Darren.

1230
00:54:55,240 –> 00:54:58,480
Yeah, they do fake TV shows.
Look at David Copperfield and

1231
00:54:58,480 –> 00:55:01,040
all the nonsense that he did.
I don’t believe he made an

1232
00:55:01,080 –> 00:55:03,360
airplane to disappear.
So we know they fake stuff.

1233
00:55:03,800 –> 00:55:05,840
But Stephen Fro was there.
There’s a lot of people there

1234
00:55:05,840 –> 00:55:08,400
who all sort of say, yeah, this.
I mean, you can see it for

1235
00:55:08,400 –> 00:55:09,080
goodness sake.
Yeah.

1236
00:55:09,080 –> 00:55:12,240
The guy, he comes up using
blanks and tries to shoot

1237
00:55:12,240 –> 00:55:14,720
Stephen on stage.
If if they did set it all up, it

1238
00:55:14,720 –> 00:55:16,920
was done very well.
It was done very convincingly.

1239
00:55:17,240 –> 00:55:20,040
So I, I believe it is possible.
I believe what they were trying

1240
00:55:20,040 –> 00:55:22,720
to do with MK Ultra most of the
time was to give people two

1241
00:55:22,720 –> 00:55:25,000
personalities.
So every day they were there and

1242
00:55:25,000 –> 00:55:27,960
then you kind of switch and you
go off and deliver your secret

1243
00:55:27,960 –> 00:55:30,560
message and then once you switch
back, you don’t even remember

1244
00:55:30,560 –> 00:55:32,000
you’ve done it.
I think that was the key thing.

1245
00:55:32,000 –> 00:55:35,360
They didn’t want people to be
caught and interrogated and sort

1246
00:55:35,360 –> 00:55:37,160
of reveal who they were and
where they came from.

1247
00:55:37,400 –> 00:55:39,960
And by having these split
personalities, I think the kind

1248
00:55:39,960 –> 00:55:42,080
of schizophrenics were the
classic people they were looking

1249
00:55:42,080 –> 00:55:44,680
for, You already had that kind
of split mind.

1250
00:55:44,880 –> 00:55:46,240
Do I think it’s possible?
Yeah, I do.

1251
00:55:46,240 –> 00:55:47,520
Yeah.
I do think brainwashing is

1252
00:55:47,520 –> 00:55:49,240
possible.
And I do think, well, we know

1253
00:55:49,240 –> 00:55:50,680
it’s possible.
I’ll tell you how we know it’s

1254
00:55:50,680 –> 00:55:53,080
possible.
We can actually quote someone

1255
00:55:53,280 –> 00:55:55,520
who was part of the program.
He was a guy called Milton

1256
00:55:55,520 –> 00:56:00,040
Klein, who in 1979 went on a ADC
documentary called Mission Mind

1257
00:56:00,040 –> 00:56:03,040
Control with a lot of other MK
Ultra psychiatrists.

1258
00:56:03,480 –> 00:56:06,880
And Milton Klein was the chief
consultant to the CIA on their

1259
00:56:06,960 –> 00:56:09,640
Manchurian Candidate MK Ultra
program.

1260
00:56:09,800 –> 00:56:13,120
And in this documentary, he says
a couple of times, yeah, we I

1261
00:56:13,120 –> 00:56:15,360
could program someone to kill.
I could program someone to

1262
00:56:15,360 –> 00:56:16,640
murder.
Now, we don’t know whether it’s

1263
00:56:16,640 –> 00:56:19,080
lying or not, but he’s in there
very convincingly saying, of

1264
00:56:19,080 –> 00:56:21,120
course, yeah, we could do it in
a time of war.

1265
00:56:21,320 –> 00:56:23,400
This is something that we know
we should be thinking about.

1266
00:56:23,400 –> 00:56:25,880
So Milton went on camera saying
this.

1267
00:56:25,920 –> 00:56:28,480
And this is where things get
very interesting.

1268
00:56:28,480 –> 00:56:30,880
And I know we’re taught to
believe that coincidences can

1269
00:56:30,880 –> 00:56:32,720
happen.
And you got this Occam’s Razor

1270
00:56:32,720 –> 00:56:35,960
stuff and all these very
simplistic ways of wrapping up

1271
00:56:35,960 –> 00:56:38,400
strange coincidences.
But this one I think is the

1272
00:56:38,400 –> 00:56:41,560
strangest I’ve ever come across
is after Mark Chapman, first

1273
00:56:41,560 –> 00:56:44,320
lawyer got some death threats,
his public lawyer, he gets moved

1274
00:56:44,320 –> 00:56:48,040
out of the way after two days.
On the third day a private

1275
00:56:48,040 –> 00:56:51,280
lawyer comes in called Jonathan
Marks way under qualified for

1276
00:56:51,280 –> 00:56:53,800
the job.
Living it up in a big office in

1277
00:56:53,800 –> 00:56:56,120
Rockefeller Plaza once again is
kind of how did you get the

1278
00:56:56,120 –> 00:56:57,720
money for that?
You’re a young up and coming

1279
00:56:57,720 –> 00:56:59,120
lawyer.
But that’s where he was.

1280
00:56:59,360 –> 00:57:03,000
And Jonathan Marks has an
assistant David Sacks who comes

1281
00:57:03,000 –> 00:57:05,320
from another company in
Rockefeller Plaza called Donovan

1282
00:57:05,320 –> 00:57:07,480
Newton Irving and Leisure.
Donovan Newton Irving and

1283
00:57:07,480 –> 00:57:10,160
Leisure was set up by while Bill
Donovan, this the founder of the

1284
00:57:10,160 –> 00:57:11,640
CIA.
I’m sure this is just a

1285
00:57:11,640 –> 00:57:15,880
coincidence and that law firm,
that wild Bill sell out was

1286
00:57:15,880 –> 00:57:19,320
awash with Spooks, which has
been well documented.

1287
00:57:19,320 –> 00:57:22,360
Even William Colby, the ex head
of the CIA used to work there.

1288
00:57:22,360 –> 00:57:24,200
So we know this was ACIA law
firm.

1289
00:57:24,480 –> 00:57:26,000
David Suggs.
Well, I’m not saying David Suggs

1290
00:57:26,000 –> 00:57:28,000
are the fairies who were the
CIA, but he did go to work with

1291
00:57:28,000 –> 00:57:30,600
Jonathan Marks.
Jonathan Marks after three days

1292
00:57:30,880 –> 00:57:33,840
does an announcement in the New
York Post Mark Chapman to be

1293
00:57:33,840 –> 00:57:36,680
hypnotized.
He decides to actually go right

1294
00:57:36,680 –> 00:57:39,760
out there and tell the world I’m
going to hypnotize Mark Chapman.

1295
00:57:40,000 –> 00:57:42,600
And I think he did that because
there’s a piece of footage you

1296
00:57:42,600 –> 00:57:45,240
can see in a recent Apple
documentary where he’s talking

1297
00:57:45,240 –> 00:57:48,400
about the psychiatrist that he’s
going to send in and someone

1298
00:57:48,400 –> 00:57:51,000
says to him, isn’t that
psychiatrist a hypnotist,

1299
00:57:51,000 –> 00:57:54,000
Jonathan?
And he says, yeah, yeah, he’s a

1300
00:57:54,000 –> 00:57:56,400
hypnotist as well.
That’s part of his skill set.

1301
00:57:56,720 –> 00:57:58,680
And they’re kind of, you can see
these journalists are sort of

1302
00:57:58,680 –> 00:58:01,560
thinking, why are you sending a
hypnotist into Mark Chapman’s

1303
00:58:01,560 –> 00:58:03,280
cell?
So anyway, I think that’s where

1304
00:58:03,280 –> 00:58:04,920
the New York Post admission came
from.

1305
00:58:05,240 –> 00:58:08,160
That hypnotist slash
psychiatrist was Milton Klein.

1306
00:58:08,640 –> 00:58:14,280
He sends Milton Klein into Mark
Chapman’s cell to shut the door

1307
00:58:14,440 –> 00:58:17,240
and have him all to himself.
Jonathan Marks does that now.

1308
00:58:17,240 –> 00:58:20,080
Why are you doing?
Is that just a coincidence or is

1309
00:58:20,080 –> 00:58:22,840
that something else?
Because I, out of all the

1310
00:58:22,840 –> 00:58:25,880
psychiatrists who must have been
working in America in 1980, is

1311
00:58:25,880 –> 00:58:28,680
Milton Klein the Manchurian
Candidate consultant for the

1312
00:58:28,680 –> 00:58:30,320
CIA?
Is he the only guy you could

1313
00:58:30,320 –> 00:58:33,000
find?
Yeah, yeah, there’s a lot of

1314
00:58:33,000 –> 00:58:37,480
coincidences in this that people
have to accept as coincidence

1315
00:58:37,840 –> 00:58:40,960
for the public version of events
to work.

1316
00:58:41,160 –> 00:58:43,960
And it’s, I’ve talked about it a
lot on this podcast.

1317
00:58:43,960 –> 00:58:47,640
It’s really frustrating how when
you’re talking true crime,

1318
00:58:48,000 –> 00:58:50,800
people will tell you forever
there’s no such thing as

1319
00:58:50,800 –> 00:58:53,520
coincidences.
But then when you get into stuff

1320
00:58:53,520 –> 00:58:55,760
like this, everything’s a
coincidence.

1321
00:58:55,760 –> 00:58:59,880
And it’s like, pick a lane.
Like there’s either no

1322
00:58:59,880 –> 00:59:03,040
coincidences or maybe there’s
sometimes coincidences and

1323
00:59:03,040 –> 00:59:05,080
sometimes they’re not a
coincidence.

1324
00:59:05,080 –> 00:59:09,360
But people approach this kind of
thing as such a like black and

1325
00:59:09,360 –> 00:59:14,360
white cut and dry thing where
like even with MK Ultra, it’s

1326
00:59:14,720 –> 00:59:17,920
really frustrating.
Anytime I’ve brought that up

1327
00:59:18,040 –> 00:59:21,000
with people who are skeptical,
for one thing, we know it

1328
00:59:21,000 –> 00:59:22,520
happened.
Like there’s government

1329
00:59:22,520 –> 00:59:26,960
documents, we know the scope of
it, we know how big it all was.

1330
00:59:27,240 –> 00:59:32,240
But the pushback I always get
from people is, well, yeah, but

1331
00:59:32,240 –> 00:59:35,040
nothing came of it.
They didn’t accomplish anything.

1332
00:59:35,200 –> 00:59:39,240
And it’s like, Are you sure?
Because the entire progressive

1333
00:59:39,240 –> 00:59:44,360
wing of American politics got
assassinated in the 60s, and it

1334
00:59:44,360 –> 00:59:48,000
all happened in really weird MK
Ultra fashion.

1335
00:59:48,200 –> 00:59:50,880
And this seems like a part of
that.

1336
00:59:50,880 –> 00:59:55,200
It seems like they did
accomplish their aims and a lot

1337
00:59:55,200 –> 00:59:58,720
of people got murdered over it.
Yeah, and we know it got found

1338
00:59:58,720 –> 01:00:02,080
out in the mid 70s after
Watergate at various hearings.

1339
01:00:02,080 –> 01:00:04,200
It all came up and obviously
they tried to hide it.

1340
01:00:04,200 –> 01:00:06,920
Richard Helms tried to shred all
the documentation.

1341
01:00:06,920 –> 01:00:09,600
I’m sure you know, Adam, it only
came through because some

1342
01:00:09,640 –> 01:00:12,640
accounting files were overlooked
and were found in boxes.

1343
01:00:12,640 –> 01:00:14,560
And we would have known it would
have been covered up forever.

1344
01:00:14,640 –> 01:00:16,400
Who knows what else they’ve
covered up and shredded.

1345
01:00:16,640 –> 01:00:18,600
So thank goodness those
accounting files were found.

1346
01:00:19,080 –> 01:00:21,840
And all right, let’s say the
CIA, the people, as I know you

1347
01:00:21,840 –> 01:00:23,120
put this up on some of your
other shows.

1348
01:00:23,400 –> 01:00:25,240
The people look quite happy to
have a heart attack gun.

1349
01:00:25,600 –> 01:00:28,760
You know those guys, let’s just
say they decided to be nice and

1350
01:00:28,760 –> 01:00:31,000
not do MK Ultra anymore in the
mid 70s.

1351
01:00:31,400 –> 01:00:33,320
That doesn’t mean Navy
intelligence didn’t stop it

1352
01:00:33,320 –> 01:00:35,360
because we know Navy
intelligence did it because a

1353
01:00:35,360 –> 01:00:40,640
Commander Nurat in I think
Sweden back in the 70s admitted

1354
01:00:40,640 –> 01:00:43,480
to a Sunday Times journalist
that that Navy intelligence had

1355
01:00:43,680 –> 01:00:47,160
Manchurian Candidate assassins
via an MK Ultra program all over

1356
01:00:47,160 –> 01:00:49,280
the world.
And The Sunday Times journalist

1357
01:00:49,280 –> 01:00:52,240
printed that admission.
And of course, the next day

1358
01:00:52,280 –> 01:00:54,640
after that, Best Navy came out
and said, oh, no, he was just

1359
01:00:54,640 –> 01:00:56,440
talking hypothetically.
He wasn’t talking

1360
01:00:56,440 –> 01:00:58,160
hypothetically.
He was talking very clearly.

1361
01:00:58,320 –> 01:01:00,600
We have this, we have these
guys, they’re all over the world

1362
01:01:00,600 –> 01:01:04,120
and they’re ready to go.
The Jason Bourne, I think was

1363
01:01:04,160 –> 01:01:06,520
based on fact.
At the end of the day, you know,

1364
01:01:06,520 –> 01:01:07,640
Robert Ludlum’s an interesting
guy.

1365
01:01:07,640 –> 01:01:11,240
He should maybe one day try and
look into him and the origins of

1366
01:01:11,240 –> 01:01:13,880
that Jason Bourne story and who
he was inspired by.

1367
01:01:13,880 –> 01:01:15,720
I’m fat.
I’m been working on article and

1368
01:01:15,720 –> 01:01:17,160
that’s which I’ll be hoping to
publish soon.

1369
01:01:17,160 –> 01:01:20,600
But yeah, there’s a lot more to
come with regards to MK Ultra.

1370
01:01:20,600 –> 01:01:23,040
And look what you know Tom
O’Neill did with Chaos and

1371
01:01:23,040 –> 01:01:26,320
Doctor Jolene W hanging out in
Heights Ashbury clinic at the

1372
01:01:26,320 –> 01:01:29,080
same time that Charlie Manson
and his followers were in there.

1373
01:01:29,400 –> 01:01:31,760
Now, again, it’s one of these
coincidences that one of the

1374
01:01:31,760 –> 01:01:35,080
leading, just like Neil Klein,
one of the leading guys in MK

1375
01:01:35,080 –> 01:01:38,320
Ultra, just happens to be in the
same clinic that Charlie Manson

1376
01:01:38,320 –> 01:01:40,200
and his followers were in.
The same Charlie Manson who

1377
01:01:40,200 –> 01:01:43,760
people said had a hypnotic power
over his followers, Is that a

1378
01:01:43,760 –> 01:01:46,520
coincidence?
Yeah, I’m never willing to

1379
01:01:46,520 –> 01:01:50,560
accept the CIA being on the
scene as a coincidence.

1380
01:01:50,640 –> 01:01:53,680
That’s never a coincidence.
I’m not willing to accept that

1381
01:01:53,680 –> 01:01:57,120
the kids of the CIA being on the
scene anywhere as a coincidence.

1382
01:01:57,640 –> 01:02:02,800
The CIA loves a family band.
We know that it’s and they’re on

1383
01:02:02,800 –> 01:02:06,360
the scene in all of these
murders, all of these

1384
01:02:06,360 –> 01:02:09,520
assassinations.
There’s someone, even the Bob

1385
01:02:09,520 –> 01:02:13,880
Marley attempted assassination,
the cameraman documenting that

1386
01:02:13,880 –> 01:02:16,760
was CIA.
And we’re supposed to just take

1387
01:02:16,760 –> 01:02:19,920
that as, oh, what a wacky
coincidence that American

1388
01:02:19,920 –> 01:02:24,560
intelligence was on the scene
when one of the most influential

1389
01:02:24,560 –> 01:02:28,040
musicians of all time was trying
to make peace.

1390
01:02:28,200 –> 01:02:30,880
That’s not a coincidence.
Come on.

1391
01:02:31,000 –> 01:02:34,840
One of the things we haven’t
touched on yet that I want to

1392
01:02:34,840 –> 01:02:38,680
talk about is there’s a very
famous picture of Mark David

1393
01:02:38,680 –> 01:02:41,520
Chapman getting an autograph
from John Lennon.

1394
01:02:42,000 –> 01:02:45,240
And there’s some weirdness
behind the photographer took

1395
01:02:45,240 –> 01:02:47,360
that picture, it seems like,
right?

1396
01:02:48,120 –> 01:02:50,840
Yeah, part of the How could we
put this part of the sort of

1397
01:02:50,840 –> 01:02:56,240
official narrative hangout that
they like to dangle some kind of

1398
01:02:56,240 –> 01:03:00,200
weird, oh, isn’t this a bit odd?
Was this a lovely cuddly,

1399
01:03:00,200 –> 01:03:03,800
obsessive photographer?
And when you got sort of cuddly

1400
01:03:03,800 –> 01:03:06,520
and obsessive together, it kind
of doesn’t sit well with me.

1401
01:03:06,520 –> 01:03:09,200
And Paul Guresh is kind of sold
to us now.

1402
01:03:09,200 –> 01:03:11,480
This is the photographer who
took that famous picture as a

1403
01:03:11,480 –> 01:03:14,840
kind of Lennon superfan who
befriended his idol.

1404
01:03:15,120 –> 01:03:18,040
And John and him were the best
of buddies and they went off

1405
01:03:18,040 –> 01:03:20,240
together to have coffee
together.

1406
01:03:20,240 –> 01:03:23,360
And Paul Garez lived his dream.
He’s obsessed with The Beatles.

1407
01:03:23,360 –> 01:03:26,320
And John initially was a little
bit annoyed with him, but then

1408
01:03:26,320 –> 01:03:27,440
they became the best of all
this.

1409
01:03:27,440 –> 01:03:29,720
It’s all complete BS.
He was a stalker.

1410
01:03:29,720 –> 01:03:32,640
He was a John Dennis stalker.
And he was a Beatles collector

1411
01:03:33,000 –> 01:03:36,800
of kind of probably a magnitude
never seen since he apparently

1412
01:03:36,800 –> 01:03:41,560
had a flat that was just wall to
ceiling full of boxes of Beatles

1413
01:03:41,800 –> 01:03:44,600
memorabilia and images and
pictures and photos and stuff,

1414
01:03:45,000 –> 01:03:46,960
which has now gone missing, by
the way, interestingly.

1415
01:03:47,360 –> 01:03:50,280
And Garez spent his life doing
what people said Chapman did,

1416
01:03:50,880 –> 01:03:53,640
standing outside of Dakota,
stalking Lennon and taking

1417
01:03:53,640 –> 01:03:55,040
pictures of him, much to Lennon
annoyance.

1418
01:03:55,040 –> 01:03:57,320
And the point where Lennon would
go up to him and grab him and

1419
01:03:57,800 –> 01:03:59,560
almost strangle him with his
camera strap.

1420
01:03:59,560 –> 01:04:01,320
This has all been.
It’s all been seen and

1421
01:04:01,320 –> 01:04:04,040
documented.
So Garesh wasn’t the guy we were

1422
01:04:04,040 –> 01:04:05,960
told he was.
He tried to get into Lennon’s

1423
01:04:05,960 –> 01:04:08,240
flat by saying he was ATV
repairman.

1424
01:04:08,240 –> 01:04:10,320
Famously, he didn’t get into
Lennon’s flats.

1425
01:04:10,320 –> 01:04:11,800
These documentaries that said he
got that far.

1426
01:04:11,800 –> 01:04:14,120
He didn’t get past the hallway,
but he kept trying.

1427
01:04:14,120 –> 01:04:15,640
He kept trying.
He was prepared to deceive

1428
01:04:15,640 –> 01:04:18,640
people to get what he wanted.
He used to be outside the flat,

1429
01:04:18,920 –> 01:04:20,960
outside the Dakota, in a van,
sleeping.

1430
01:04:20,960 –> 01:04:24,840
Sometimes in the van, some could
say unfairly, perhaps he was

1431
01:04:24,840 –> 01:04:28,280
kind of surveying the Dakota.
If anybody knew John and the

1432
01:04:28,280 –> 01:04:31,080
Oco’s movements, boy, it would
have been Paul Garesche.

1433
01:04:31,400 –> 01:04:34,120
And Paul Koresh on the day of
the murder was in his usual

1434
01:04:34,120 –> 01:04:37,040
place, stalking the Lenins
outside with his camera, no

1435
01:04:37,040 –> 01:04:38,960
doubt trying to get some good
photos that he could sell on the

1436
01:04:38,960 –> 01:04:41,080
memorabilia market, which he was
so famous in.

1437
01:04:41,280 –> 01:04:44,280
And he just happened to have a
copy of Double Fantasy with him.

1438
01:04:44,480 –> 01:04:48,240
And he gave this in this this
spare copy as evidence to.

1439
01:04:48,360 –> 01:04:50,680
And I’ve got his evidence
voucher that he gave it into to

1440
01:04:50,680 –> 01:04:52,200
the cops that the day after the
murder.

1441
01:04:52,320 –> 01:04:55,600
But what’s interesting about
Paul Gresh is he has kind of

1442
01:04:55,600 –> 01:04:59,720
inferred that Chapman was this
kind of guy who pushed his way

1443
01:04:59,720 –> 01:05:01,640
into Lennon to get this
autograph.

1444
01:05:02,080 –> 01:05:05,880
But the actual truth of it is
kind of Chapman gave it away in

1445
01:05:05,880 –> 01:05:08,240
a 92 interview.
And I’ve spoken to other people

1446
01:05:08,240 –> 01:05:11,840
who verified this, is that it
was Ganesh who said to Mark,

1447
01:05:12,000 –> 01:05:15,200
come over, this is your chance
to get the autograph.

1448
01:05:15,200 –> 01:05:19,400
Mark come and stand here and
Ganesh just happened to be with

1449
01:05:19,400 –> 01:05:22,160
a spare copy in his hand just in
case Mark didn’t have a copy.

1450
01:05:22,160 –> 01:05:23,800
But Mark went off to buy a copy
that day.

1451
01:05:24,080 –> 01:05:26,640
Interestingly, just to quickly
back backtrack on that, he went

1452
01:05:26,640 –> 01:05:29,720
to lunch Mark that day with two
Beatles super fans called Jerry

1453
01:05:29,720 –> 01:05:31,480
and Jude.
And I’ve got their testimony

1454
01:05:31,480 –> 01:05:33,120
now.
And they both say two really

1455
01:05:33,120 –> 01:05:35,080
interesting things.
First thing they say is he knew

1456
01:05:35,080 –> 01:05:37,040
nothing about The Beatles.
He knew nothing about John then.

1457
01:05:37,040 –> 01:05:38,640
Yeah.
So he was he was not a fan.

1458
01:05:38,960 –> 01:05:41,360
And they also say he didn’t even
know that it was a new album

1459
01:05:41,360 –> 01:05:42,560
out.
So they said, why don’t you go

1460
01:05:42,560 –> 01:05:45,080
and buy a new album, Mark, and
get it signed?

1461
01:05:45,160 –> 01:05:48,160
Wouldn’t that be cool?
And he said, yeah, great idea.

1462
01:05:48,160 –> 01:05:49,320
So he went off and bought the
album.

1463
01:05:49,320 –> 01:05:50,520
That’s where Mark got his album
from.

1464
01:05:50,720 –> 01:05:54,120
But Koresh wants to have a spare
copy just to make sure that if

1465
01:05:54,120 –> 01:05:56,280
Mark didn’t have his own album,
the rest could give money.

1466
01:05:56,280 –> 01:05:58,520
Isn’t that a little bit odd?
Little bit strange.

1467
01:05:58,920 –> 01:06:02,240
So he calls Mark over as John.
As John comes out, he gets Mark

1468
01:06:02,240 –> 01:06:04,280
framed.
He gets the picture of his

1469
01:06:04,280 –> 01:06:06,640
lifetime.
But bang, a picture that has

1470
01:06:06,640 –> 01:06:10,240
made him a lot of money, more
than any Beatles memorabilia guy

1471
01:06:10,240 –> 01:06:12,360
could ever dream of.
He got this picture, right?

1472
01:06:12,600 –> 01:06:14,600
What’s interesting.
Then after that, he then goes

1473
01:06:14,600 –> 01:06:16,680
off.
He’s not there for the event

1474
01:06:16,760 –> 01:06:18,680
that night.
He goes home, allegedly.

1475
01:06:18,840 –> 01:06:24,880
But when he apparently sees Mark
under a coat, he says he

1476
01:06:24,880 –> 01:06:28,240
recognizes Mark’s clothing.
Now, it’s very hard to recognize

1477
01:06:28,240 –> 01:06:31,680
Mark’s clothing because it’s all
kind of like very grainy 80s

1478
01:06:31,680 –> 01:06:33,600
video footage.
And actually some cops have now

1479
01:06:33,600 –> 01:06:36,120
come out and said that wasn’t
Mark under that coat.

1480
01:06:36,440 –> 01:06:38,320
It was a dummy guy for the
press.

1481
01:06:38,840 –> 01:06:42,200
Again, it’s But Garez says, I, I
recognize the guy under the coat

1482
01:06:42,200 –> 01:06:44,320
as the guy that I took a picture
of earlier in the day.

1483
01:06:44,320 –> 01:06:47,320
And I, I put two and two
together and I rang the cops up

1484
01:06:47,320 –> 01:06:49,200
and said, I think I’ve got your
man on camera.

1485
01:06:49,320 –> 01:06:51,720
How could he know that?
Yeah, how could he know that?

1486
01:06:52,000 –> 01:06:55,040
He was taking apart lots of
snaps that day, but he knew.

1487
01:06:55,120 –> 01:06:57,240
He knew it was Mark.
He knew he had a picture of him.

1488
01:06:57,440 –> 01:06:59,960
Interestingly, the cops weren’t
interested at first.

1489
01:06:59,960 –> 01:07:02,080
They were like, no, leave us
alone.

1490
01:07:02,320 –> 01:07:07,000
But one cop allegedly got
involved, rang up Paul and said,

1491
01:07:07,000 –> 01:07:09,160
I’ll be right.
He’s almost acted like his agent

1492
01:07:09,360 –> 01:07:12,280
and the cop got in touch with
the papers and said, we’ll

1493
01:07:12,280 –> 01:07:14,200
negotiate a deal for you in
this.

1494
01:07:14,200 –> 01:07:15,760
It was like, oh, this is not
meant to be.

1495
01:07:15,760 –> 01:07:19,560
This is it’s almost like someone
kind of got scared that this

1496
01:07:19,560 –> 01:07:22,120
image was out there and then
perhaps losing control of the

1497
01:07:22,120 –> 01:07:23,960
narrative.
And I think when they realized

1498
01:07:23,960 –> 01:07:27,080
that the the action image might
help to bolster keeping Mark

1499
01:07:27,080 –> 01:07:29,880
Chapman where they want to have
him as this kind of cool,

1500
01:07:29,880 –> 01:07:33,200
calculated Lenin obsessive
killer who actually got his

1501
01:07:33,200 –> 01:07:35,720
autograph, he was so obsessed
with him, I think they realized,

1502
01:07:35,720 –> 01:07:37,760
yeah, let’s just run with this.
Let’s get this in the papers.

1503
01:07:37,760 –> 01:07:39,080
And of course, it did get in the
papers.

1504
01:07:39,080 –> 01:07:40,800
It made Paul Gresh a lot of
money.

1505
01:07:41,080 –> 01:07:45,680
And Paul Gresh, weirdly, really
weirdly, was approached by Yoko

1506
01:07:45,680 –> 01:07:49,680
Ono in January, and she asked to
use one of his images of John

1507
01:07:49,680 –> 01:07:53,040
and her walking out of the
Dakota driveway to go on a

1508
01:07:53,080 –> 01:07:56,400
posthumous John Lennon single
called Watching the Wheels.

1509
01:07:56,520 –> 01:07:58,480
And so he made more money that
way.

1510
01:07:58,800 –> 01:08:01,200
And when he died, he died, I
don’t know, about 10 years

1511
01:08:01,200 –> 01:08:03,840
later, maybe 15 years later.
No, actually now I think he went

1512
01:08:04,240 –> 01:08:07,320
maybe 2025 years later, sometime
in the 2000s, he died.

1513
01:08:07,320 –> 01:08:11,400
Yoko apparently sent a message
of condolence to Paul.

1514
01:08:11,640 –> 01:08:12,320
That’s.
Weird.

1515
01:08:12,320 –> 01:08:16,080
Yeah, Paul Goresh again.
It’s just a classic example of

1516
01:08:16,080 –> 01:08:20,600
how people are sold BS narrative
about a person that’s involved

1517
01:08:20,600 –> 01:08:23,200
in the case.
There’s he.

1518
01:08:23,399 –> 01:08:26,720
He wasn’t John’s friend.
He was Fred Seaman who worked

1519
01:08:26,720 –> 01:08:28,520
with John.
I spoke, spoke to Fred many

1520
01:08:28,520 –> 01:08:30,399
times.
He said they were really scared

1521
01:08:30,399 –> 01:08:32,840
of him, like he was a serious
security threat because he was

1522
01:08:32,880 –> 01:08:35,800
always following them.
He was always stalking them.

1523
01:08:35,800 –> 01:08:38,040
John.
John called him some horribly

1524
01:08:38,840 –> 01:08:41,720
obscene names.
John did not like this guy, but

1525
01:08:41,720 –> 01:08:44,040
he kind of, he probably, I can
imagine John just went that I’ll

1526
01:08:44,040 –> 01:08:46,200
just see him now and again, give
him the odd smile.

1527
01:08:46,200 –> 01:08:48,319
He gave him a famous photo.
There’s one of Paul and John

1528
01:08:48,319 –> 01:08:50,359
together, which apparently
happened a few days before the

1529
01:08:50,359 –> 01:08:51,800
murder.
Paul Gresh is a man of great

1530
01:08:51,800 –> 01:08:53,840
interest to me because if
someone was going to be there

1531
01:08:53,840 –> 01:08:56,359
stalking the place, keeping an
eye on Mark Chapman and what

1532
01:08:56,359 –> 01:08:59,240
he’s doing, keeping an eye on
Lennon’s comings and goings,

1533
01:08:59,520 –> 01:09:02,200
Paul Gresh would have fitted
that bill just perfectly.

1534
01:09:02,640 –> 01:09:05,000
And there was whispers from
people inside of Dakota that he

1535
01:09:05,000 –> 01:09:08,479
may have been an FBI guy.
And I, I, we know he wanted to

1536
01:09:08,479 –> 01:09:10,439
be a policeman.
Apparently that was one of his

1537
01:09:10,560 –> 01:09:13,680
ambitions.
He was a repo man apparently.

1538
01:09:13,720 –> 01:09:16,560
And those guys don’t.
Can you imagine a repo man in

1539
01:09:16,560 –> 01:09:19,760
late 70s New York?
You have to be pretty handy.

1540
01:09:20,160 –> 01:09:23,040
You got to know, you know,
you’ve got to be pretty useful.

1541
01:09:23,120 –> 01:09:26,000
And that’s who Paul Gresh was.
So he, he’s not this cuddly

1542
01:09:26,200 –> 01:09:29,720
Lennon fan slash friend.
He was a very strange and

1543
01:09:29,720 –> 01:09:35,279
fairest guy.
Speaking of Yoko Ono and the FBI

1544
01:09:35,560 –> 01:09:41,439
both, the bodyguard situation
around John Lennon is very, very

1545
01:09:41,439 –> 01:09:45,279
strange.
Can you talk about that a little

1546
01:09:45,279 –> 01:09:47,760
bit before you do?
I will say that’s the part that

1547
01:09:47,760 –> 01:09:53,520
I find the most weird about Yoko
Ono in all of this because her

1548
01:09:53,520 –> 01:09:56,120
giving conflicting statements
and things.

1549
01:09:56,640 –> 01:10:02,520
I’m always hesitant to base a
theory on how someone acts in

1550
01:10:02,520 –> 01:10:06,760
the moments after the most
traumatic event of their life so

1551
01:10:07,440 –> 01:10:11,440
I could reconcile the
conflicting statements, but

1552
01:10:11,640 –> 01:10:17,680
hiring an FBI agent for your
bodyguard when the FBI was so

1553
01:10:17,720 –> 01:10:23,120
actively harassing and tracking
John Lennon seems very strange

1554
01:10:23,120 –> 01:10:25,800
to me.
And then to kind of make him the

1555
01:10:25,800 –> 01:10:29,640
person who decided when John
Lennon was cremated and who got

1556
01:10:29,640 –> 01:10:32,000
to see the body.
Yeah, what the hell?

1557
01:10:32,200 –> 01:10:34,840
That is very odd.
Yeah.

1558
01:10:34,840 –> 01:10:38,160
I mean, yeah, he kind of came
into the picture a year before

1559
01:10:38,160 –> 01:10:41,280
the murder, hired by Yoko to be
a bodyguard.

1560
01:10:41,280 –> 01:10:44,520
There was a recent documentary
where it was inferred that he

1561
01:10:44,520 –> 01:10:47,320
was a bodyguard to Sean.
I think he would.

1562
01:10:47,320 –> 01:10:49,640
That’s not true.
He was hired to be the bodyguard

1563
01:10:49,640 –> 01:10:52,320
to the Lennons and Sean.
I’m sure he was keeping an eye

1564
01:10:52,320 –> 01:10:54,800
on Sean as well as John and
Yoko, but it was mainly John and

1565
01:10:54,800 –> 01:10:57,520
Yoko who was a threat.
The thing about Doug McDougal is

1566
01:10:57,880 –> 01:11:01,040
he was ex FBI.
He was apparently a very serious

1567
01:11:01,360 –> 01:11:04,440
counterintelligence Soviet
expert in New York.

1568
01:11:04,480 –> 01:11:07,720
And I’ve heard from an
unverified source that he was

1569
01:11:07,720 –> 01:11:11,440
part of a kind of FBI Black Ops
team, assassination team.

1570
01:11:11,440 –> 01:11:13,920
Now, I can’t verify that.
So I really want, I want people

1571
01:11:13,920 –> 01:11:15,120
to take that with a pinch of
salt.

1572
01:11:15,440 –> 01:11:17,240
But I think he was a very
serious individual.

1573
01:11:17,240 –> 01:11:20,680
There’s no doubt about that.
He had Scottish ancestry and by

1574
01:11:20,680 –> 01:11:23,480
all accounts was a very large,
very handy individual.

1575
01:11:23,640 –> 01:11:26,640
Could look after himself.
A very gruff, not the kind of

1576
01:11:26,640 –> 01:11:28,720
guy you would expect.
Yoko owner wants to be hanging

1577
01:11:28,720 –> 01:11:30,080
around her, really, to be
honest.

1578
01:11:30,080 –> 01:11:32,120
But Yoko hired him.
Yoko always took care of

1579
01:11:32,120 –> 01:11:34,680
security.
When they started to record

1580
01:11:34,680 –> 01:11:37,840
Double Fantasy in the summer of
1980, Yoko started to give

1581
01:11:37,840 –> 01:11:40,040
interviews to magazines where
she started to tell the

1582
01:11:40,040 –> 01:11:42,760
journalists their movements.
We get up, we get there on 10:00

1583
01:11:42,800 –> 01:11:45,600
AM on a Tuesday, then we leave
normally at 4:00 PM, blah blah

1584
01:11:45,600 –> 01:11:47,640
blah.
And he allegedly, Doug pulled

1585
01:11:47,640 –> 01:11:49,600
her up and said that should be
doing this.

1586
01:11:49,600 –> 01:11:51,480
It’s a security threat.
I need to be a little bit more

1587
01:11:51,480 –> 01:11:54,440
careful about what you say about
your movements.

1588
01:11:54,760 –> 01:11:58,920
According to legend, Yoko then
got angry that he suggested this

1589
01:11:58,960 –> 01:12:00,160
and put him on a leave of
absence.

1590
01:12:00,160 –> 01:12:02,040
Didn’t fire him.
Put him on a leave of absence.

1591
01:12:02,040 –> 01:12:05,840
So roundabout sort of sort of
the September, early October

1592
01:12:05,840 –> 01:12:09,440
time, Doug Mcdougall’s gone, OK?
Now there are some people who’ve

1593
01:12:09,440 –> 01:12:12,440
interviewed the legends who said
they saw security around.

1594
01:12:12,440 –> 01:12:15,840
And there was a BBCDJ journalist
called Andy Peebles who said he

1595
01:12:15,840 –> 01:12:18,400
came to interview the Lennons 2
days before the murder and saw

1596
01:12:18,400 –> 01:12:21,000
two very big burly bodyguards
that were always around them.

1597
01:12:21,240 –> 01:12:22,320
We don’t know who these people
are.

1598
01:12:22,320 –> 01:12:24,000
I still can’t figure out who
these people are.

1599
01:12:24,320 –> 01:12:28,080
So he may have been confused and
thought there was someone else.

1600
01:12:28,080 –> 01:12:30,480
But anyway, there was some kind
of security around them.

1601
01:12:30,680 –> 01:12:32,760
What we do know is on the night
of the murder, Doug McDougall

1602
01:12:32,760 –> 01:12:34,320
wasn’t there.
So when they got out of that

1603
01:12:34,560 –> 01:12:37,760
limo, there was no security.
Now, some people said Yoko made

1604
01:12:37,760 –> 01:12:40,760
sure of that.
Yeah, OK, maybe, maybe not.

1605
01:12:40,920 –> 01:12:43,680
It might have just been a really
horrible coincidence that she

1606
01:12:43,800 –> 01:12:45,840
came to leave of absence a few
weeks before the murder.

1607
01:12:46,000 –> 01:12:48,160
I can see how people put two and
two together there, but for me,

1608
01:12:48,160 –> 01:12:50,440
that’s not enough evidence to
say that she’s nefariously

1609
01:12:50,440 –> 01:12:52,840
involved.
What we do know is, is that he

1610
01:12:52,840 –> 01:12:56,080
turns up that night very early
hours of the morning and he

1611
01:12:56,080 –> 01:12:59,080
turns out to start work again.
Now some people said, oh, there

1612
01:12:59,080 –> 01:13:00,960
you go.
She kept him, stood him down

1613
01:13:00,960 –> 01:13:03,920
until John was down and she got
him straight back into the fold.

1614
01:13:04,160 –> 01:13:06,880
Or you could say someone just
shot her husband and she rang up

1615
01:13:06,880 –> 01:13:08,600
the security guard and said,
will you come in and help

1616
01:13:08,600 –> 01:13:10,520
protect me because you know, I
don’t want someone to come shoot

1617
01:13:10,520 –> 01:13:11,800
me.
Which again, makes perfect

1618
01:13:11,800 –> 01:13:14,200
sense.
Fred Seaman, a guy who worked

1619
01:13:14,200 –> 01:13:18,640
with the Lennons, has said in
his book that he saw in Yoko’s

1620
01:13:18,640 –> 01:13:22,880
diary that the next day, the 9th
of December, was that kind of

1621
01:13:22,880 –> 01:13:25,640
like Doug MacDougall returning
to work kind of entry.

1622
01:13:26,080 –> 01:13:28,520
He’s given no proof of that.
We have to take Fred Siemens

1623
01:13:28,520 –> 01:13:29,920
word for that.
And what Fred’s obviously

1624
01:13:29,920 –> 01:13:33,480
inferring is she kept him out of
the way until she could, till

1625
01:13:33,480 –> 01:13:34,960
John was shot and she got him
back on.

1626
01:13:35,200 –> 01:13:38,600
Now what we do know is when he
did come back to work on the

1627
01:13:38,680 –> 01:13:41,160
early hours of the morning of,
of after Monday the 8th of

1628
01:13:41,160 –> 01:13:44,120
December, is he kind of got the
Pinkerton Agency in which is a

1629
01:13:44,120 –> 01:13:48,120
very serious hardcore security
firm with machine guns and lots

1630
01:13:48,120 –> 01:13:50,800
of armour and ammo.
And they all started to wander

1631
01:13:50,800 –> 01:13:52,600
around the Dakota corridors and
rooms.

1632
01:13:52,600 –> 01:13:55,440
And so they went from zero to
100 when it came to security.

1633
01:13:55,440 –> 01:13:58,440
And everyone was a bit
frightened of these heavy duty

1634
01:13:58,440 –> 01:14:02,280
guys around the place.
And then 36 hours after John’s

1635
01:14:02,280 –> 01:14:05,400
murder, so not the day after,
the day after that, Wikipedia

1636
01:14:05,400 –> 01:14:07,160
got that wrong.
Wikipedia says it was on the day

1637
01:14:07,160 –> 01:14:08,040
after the bird.
It wasn’t.

1638
01:14:08,040 –> 01:14:11,760
It was a day after day after.
So it’s 36 hours after she

1639
01:14:11,760 –> 01:14:16,800
instructs Doug McDougal to take
John from the morgue to

1640
01:14:16,800 –> 01:14:20,360
Ferncliff’s crematorium and John
was cremated without her

1641
01:14:20,360 –> 01:14:23,360
attending, without John’s family
attending, without anyone

1642
01:14:23,360 –> 01:14:25,960
getting a chance to say goodbye.
Some people could say that was

1643
01:14:25,960 –> 01:14:27,200
rushed.
It was rushed.

1644
01:14:27,200 –> 01:14:30,160
It was a bit callous that she
didn’t turn up or didn’t just

1645
01:14:30,160 –> 01:14:34,600
have an ex FBI agent there.
Arranging John’s funeral is very

1646
01:14:34,600 –> 01:14:37,040
strange.
What’s even stranger is Doug

1647
01:14:37,040 –> 01:14:40,360
McDougal found a metal object in
John’s ashes.

1648
01:14:40,680 –> 01:14:43,680
Not quite sure whether the Doug
found that or whether the sort

1649
01:14:43,680 –> 01:14:47,200
of crematorium staff heard a bit
of jangling in the jar or

1650
01:14:47,200 –> 01:14:48,280
whatever.
I don’t know how the hell this

1651
01:14:48,280 –> 01:14:50,360
came about.
I’ve got a note from Doug

1652
01:14:50,360 –> 01:14:54,680
McDougal sent to Ron Hoffman,
the lead detective, saying this

1653
01:14:54,680 –> 01:14:57,840
is unverified grey metal objects
in John’s ashes.

1654
01:14:57,960 –> 01:15:00,440
It was probably a fragment of a
bullet, to be honest, I think

1655
01:15:00,560 –> 01:15:02,400
because there was lots of
different bullets that were

1656
01:15:02,400 –> 01:15:04,240
found in John, which is a story
for another day.

1657
01:15:04,560 –> 01:15:07,600
So they Ron Hoffman said, yeah,
we sent off analysis and it was

1658
01:15:07,600 –> 01:15:10,000
a bit that broke off the
crematorium.

1659
01:15:10,760 –> 01:15:13,200
It just wasn’t very convincing
what they said it was.

1660
01:15:13,760 –> 01:15:16,360
But anyway, Doug brings back
John’s ashes in a colourful box

1661
01:15:16,360 –> 01:15:18,640
to fool the fans outside the
Dakota.

1662
01:15:18,880 –> 01:15:21,720
It’s just almost Waterville
really walks in with John’s

1663
01:15:21,720 –> 01:15:24,280
ashes, gives it to Yoko.
Famously one of the guys in the

1664
01:15:24,280 –> 01:15:25,760
kitchen says what’s in the box,
Doug.

1665
01:15:25,760 –> 01:15:27,960
And he said, this is the most
famous musician who ever lived.

1666
01:15:28,240 –> 01:15:30,400
Just sounds too cheesy to me,
but we’ll go over there.

1667
01:15:30,400 –> 01:15:33,720
And then it gives it to Yoko.
She puts the ashes under her bed

1668
01:15:34,080 –> 01:15:36,560
and apparently that’s, that’s
the last anybody’s kind of

1669
01:15:36,560 –> 01:15:39,960
verified of where John’s ashes
is with regards to Doug.

1670
01:15:40,160 –> 01:15:43,280
Next year, next spring, Doug’s
still doing his job and

1671
01:15:43,280 –> 01:15:45,880
allegedly he takes his eye off
Sean in Central Park.

1672
01:15:46,080 –> 01:15:49,120
Yoko fires him for not keeping
an eye on him all the time.

1673
01:15:49,640 –> 01:15:52,160
Doug then takes a lot of Lennon
possessions.

1674
01:15:52,160 –> 01:15:55,120
Would you believe?
And I think it’s weird stuff

1675
01:15:55,120 –> 01:15:57,320
like letters and tapes and a
penknife.

1676
01:15:57,320 –> 01:15:59,080
Would you believe a Swiss Army
penknife?

1677
01:15:59,680 –> 01:16:01,160
God knows why he thought that
was important.

1678
01:16:01,280 –> 01:16:04,520
But he takes all this stuff,
rings up Elliot Mints, Yoko’s

1679
01:16:05,080 –> 01:16:08,240
very famous, some would say
infamous publicist and says to

1680
01:16:08,240 –> 01:16:09,880
Elliot Mintz, I’ve got all this
stuff.

1681
01:16:10,000 –> 01:16:12,040
And the reason I’ve taken all
this stuff is you owe me back

1682
01:16:12,040 –> 01:16:13,240
pay.
Come and bring me all my back

1683
01:16:13,240 –> 01:16:15,280
pay and you can have all this
stuff back.

1684
01:16:15,280 –> 01:16:18,360
And according to earlier, he
went over to Doug’s house, gave

1685
01:16:18,360 –> 01:16:21,080
him whatever back pay Doug
thought he was owed, got all the

1686
01:16:21,080 –> 01:16:24,080
material back.
And interestingly, I’m pretty

1687
01:16:24,080 –> 01:16:26,320
certainly we give him an NDA.
I’m pretty sure at that point

1688
01:16:26,320 –> 01:16:27,800
because we never heard from Doug
officially again.

1689
01:16:27,800 –> 01:16:30,040
But he I’ve never actually said
this in my book.

1690
01:16:30,240 –> 01:16:31,720
I’ve only found this out
recently.

1691
01:16:31,720 –> 01:16:33,040
And this is an exclusive for
you, Adam.

1692
01:16:33,360 –> 01:16:35,640
Doug does turn up again in the
Lennon’s life after all.

1693
01:16:35,640 –> 01:16:38,640
You’d think that’d be the end of
Doug stealing stuff, demanding

1694
01:16:38,640 –> 01:16:41,520
money.
But Doug became, in the years to

1695
01:16:41,520 –> 01:16:45,120
come, he started to work for
Lenono Music.

1696
01:16:45,520 –> 01:16:47,240
And I’ve got documentation to
prove this.

1697
01:16:47,240 –> 01:16:51,040
And Lenono Music was a Lenin
publishing house set up by Yoko

1698
01:16:51,080 –> 01:16:53,520
Ono after John’s death.
Now, well, I think it might have

1699
01:16:53,520 –> 01:16:56,360
been set up before John’s death,
but actually it was active after

1700
01:16:56,360 –> 01:17:00,520
John’s death, Lenono Publishing.
Now why would the Bodyguard work

1701
01:17:00,520 –> 01:17:02,600
for that company?
Yeah, that’s strange.

1702
01:17:02,720 –> 01:17:04,800
Why would she?
Allow that to happen because I

1703
01:17:04,800 –> 01:17:08,960
I’ve spoken to Mike Medeiros and
Fred Seaman who both say that

1704
01:17:09,440 –> 01:17:11,720
Doug didn’t like Yoko after the
murder.

1705
01:17:11,720 –> 01:17:15,120
He didn’t like the way he was
treated, wasn’t a big Yoko fan.

1706
01:17:15,320 –> 01:17:17,520
And obviously he did that thing
by taking all the possessions

1707
01:17:17,520 –> 01:17:19,800
and demanding money.
And then Elliott did all this.

1708
01:17:20,080 –> 01:17:23,440
So what the hell is he doing
working for Lenono Publishing?

1709
01:17:23,920 –> 01:17:27,600
It makes no sense whatsoever.
But clearly Yoko forgotten

1710
01:17:27,880 –> 01:17:30,040
because she’d have had to.
She’d have had to have sanction

1711
01:17:30,040 –> 01:17:32,760
that.
So the Doug McDougal story has

1712
01:17:32,760 –> 01:17:35,320
got a long way to go.
There’s a lot more to come

1713
01:17:35,520 –> 01:17:38,600
regarding Doug McDougal and who
he was and who he was working

1714
01:17:38,600 –> 01:17:40,400
for and what he did after the
murder.

1715
01:17:40,400 –> 01:17:43,240
I’d like to know more about how
he ends up working for a Lenin

1716
01:17:43,240 –> 01:17:45,120
company.
That that, that makes no sense

1717
01:17:45,120 –> 01:17:47,360
to me.
Yeah, I agree with that.

1718
01:17:47,560 –> 01:17:51,760
So $1,000,000 question Why would
the American government want to

1719
01:17:51,760 –> 01:17:55,680
kill John Lennon?
Well, first thing I’d say, Adam,

1720
01:17:55,680 –> 01:17:56,840
is I don’t think it was the
government.

1721
01:17:57,040 –> 01:17:59,720
I think, and I don’t think any
of these operations you can talk

1722
01:17:59,720 –> 01:18:03,480
about Fred Hampton, Malcolm
XJFKRFK, all the suspicious

1723
01:18:03,480 –> 01:18:05,800
murders of the in the 60s and
Lennon.

1724
01:18:06,080 –> 01:18:07,600
I don’t think it is just one
entity.

1725
01:18:07,600 –> 01:18:09,520
I think it’s always a mistake to
say it was the CIA, it was the

1726
01:18:09,520 –> 01:18:12,000
American government, it was the
FBI, it was this, it was that it

1727
01:18:12,000 –> 01:18:13,720
was a Satanist, it was a
Scientologist.

1728
01:18:13,760 –> 01:18:16,120
Yeah, all these crazy theories
for me.

1729
01:18:16,120 –> 01:18:19,080
I, I, I, I think the way this
works is it will certainly never

1730
01:18:19,080 –> 01:18:20,920
be an official government
sanction.

1731
01:18:20,920 –> 01:18:24,040
I, I think it’s an off books
group of people, like minded

1732
01:18:24,040 –> 01:18:27,480
people who get together and say,
do you know what?

1733
01:18:27,680 –> 01:18:30,920
If that guy went, it would sort
of be good for all of us.

1734
01:18:31,240 –> 01:18:36,440
And I think it was elements
within the Republican movement.

1735
01:18:36,440 –> 01:18:38,760
I think it would have been
Republican sympathizers who who

1736
01:18:38,800 –> 01:18:41,320
put it all together.
And I think we forget that John

1737
01:18:41,320 –> 01:18:44,560
Lennon was the most influential
political musical artist in the

1738
01:18:44,560 –> 01:18:46,080
20th century.
There’s no doubt about that.

1739
01:18:46,080 –> 01:18:48,280
John, John wasn’t just one of
the greatest music artists.

1740
01:18:48,280 –> 01:18:50,480
He was a he was a politically
active and politically

1741
01:18:50,480 –> 01:18:53,640
influential music artist.
And sometimes you don’t need to

1742
01:18:53,640 –> 01:18:56,800
see a problem to fix it.
You have to just imagine the

1743
01:18:56,800 –> 01:18:58,440
problems coming.
And I think they probably

1744
01:18:58,440 –> 01:19:01,840
imagined that once he got his
green card stamped officially in

1745
01:19:01,840 –> 01:19:04,840
January 1981, because remember,
he got it in 76 provisionally

1746
01:19:05,040 –> 01:19:08,640
been 81, he would have been free
to come and go from the country.

1747
01:19:09,000 –> 01:19:12,040
He was planning a world tour.
So he would have been able not

1748
01:19:12,040 –> 01:19:14,640
only to spread an anti Ronald
Reagan message in America,

1749
01:19:14,640 –> 01:19:16,240
they’ve been able to spread that
all over the world.

1750
01:19:16,400 –> 01:19:18,680
They knew that.
So think about the timing here.

1751
01:19:18,720 –> 01:19:20,320
We knew he was back.
We knew he was active.

1752
01:19:20,320 –> 01:19:23,280
He was due to go to San
Francisco at the end of December

1753
01:19:23,600 –> 01:19:27,320
to attend a Asian workers rally
for Asian workers rights.

1754
01:19:27,320 –> 01:19:29,920
So he was already planning
political activism at that

1755
01:19:29,920 –> 01:19:31,800
point.
And I just think the people that

1756
01:19:31,800 –> 01:19:35,960
surrounded Mark Chapman were
Republican sympathisers who were

1757
01:19:35,960 –> 01:19:38,440
connected to Nixon.
There are connections to Nixon.

1758
01:19:38,440 –> 01:19:41,280
There are connections to
Reagan’s administration with

1759
01:19:41,280 –> 01:19:44,080
regards to Joe Rogers.
There are connections to,

1760
01:19:44,400 –> 01:19:47,360
there’s people like Cordis
Cooper who knew people who knew

1761
01:19:47,360 –> 01:19:49,560
Chapman and Chorus Cooper worked
for the Rand Corporation in the

1762
01:19:49,560 –> 01:19:53,080
Pentagon.
So there are very serious

1763
01:19:53,080 –> 01:19:58,680
military Republican sympathizers
attached to people strongly

1764
01:19:58,680 –> 01:20:02,160
attached, deeply attached to
people who were handling Mark

1765
01:20:02,160 –> 01:20:04,840
Chapman.
And I think I just can’t walk

1766
01:20:04,840 –> 01:20:08,600
away from that coincidence.
I can’t ignore that coincidence.

1767
01:20:09,080 –> 01:20:11,680
And I think Mark Chapman was
like John Hinckley and various

1768
01:20:11,680 –> 01:20:13,360
other people that will probably
get never get to know their

1769
01:20:13,360 –> 01:20:15,480
names.
He was just part of a group of

1770
01:20:15,480 –> 01:20:18,600
people who could be plucked off
a shelf and programmed to to

1771
01:20:18,600 –> 01:20:20,320
become obsessed about a certain
thing.

1772
01:20:20,640 –> 01:20:23,880
And I think initially they
probably had a an initial dry

1773
01:20:23,880 –> 01:20:26,240
run in 78 when he was sent to
Mount Fuji.

1774
01:20:26,520 –> 01:20:28,800
I think that might have been
just to see how far we can get

1775
01:20:28,800 –> 01:20:30,280
this guy to get close to John
Lennon.

1776
01:20:30,480 –> 01:20:33,560
And then clearly in the summer
of 1980, by all the evidence

1777
01:20:33,600 –> 01:20:36,680
that Mark was just suddenly
became obsessed about capturing

1778
01:20:36,680 –> 01:20:38,440
the line John Lennon.
He says this himself.

1779
01:20:38,800 –> 01:20:40,600
And I think that’s when the plot
was triggered.

1780
01:20:40,600 –> 01:20:42,560
And but again, I think it went
wrong.

1781
01:20:42,680 –> 01:20:45,640
The one thing they didn’t want
Adam, was Mark Chapman to say I

1782
01:20:45,640 –> 01:20:47,560
shot John in the back.
But the actual evidence was John

1783
01:20:47,560 –> 01:20:49,880
was shot in front and that was a
mistake.

1784
01:20:50,080 –> 01:20:52,320
I think Martin imagines
something obviously we know he

1785
01:20:52,320 –> 01:20:53,880
didn’t do.
And I think the minute you

1786
01:20:53,880 –> 01:20:56,560
actually, if you think about
that logically, how easy would

1787
01:20:56,560 –> 01:20:59,920
it be for Mark Chapman to say, I
shouted out to John, I walked up

1788
01:20:59,920 –> 01:21:02,440
to him, he turned around, I shot
him in the front and he fell

1789
01:21:02,440 –> 01:21:04,480
down or he staggered off into
the building.

1790
01:21:05,360 –> 01:21:07,600
It’s not, it’s not what’s to
Mark whether he shot him in the

1791
01:21:07,600 –> 01:21:10,880
front or the back, but Mark is
imagining something that he’s

1792
01:21:10,880 –> 01:21:14,600
not doing.
So clearly his mind is not fully

1793
01:21:14,600 –> 01:21:15,840
there.
So it’s.

1794
01:21:16,040 –> 01:21:19,360
And then when you think, oh, OK,
and you’re and then suddenly a

1795
01:21:19,360 –> 01:21:22,240
couple of days later, as some
mind control expert from the CIA

1796
01:21:22,240 –> 01:21:24,600
walks into a cell and, oh,
someone is alleging that you

1797
01:21:24,600 –> 01:21:27,600
were doing some brainwashing
techniques in a mental hospital

1798
01:21:27,640 –> 01:21:30,720
a couple of years earlier.
It all starts to stack up that

1799
01:21:30,720 –> 01:21:33,200
this guy was a classic
Manchurian Patsy.

1800
01:21:33,520 –> 01:21:35,040
I’m getting back to your
question about the American

1801
01:21:35,040 –> 01:21:37,080
government.
I think it was people who were

1802
01:21:38,040 –> 01:21:40,880
sympathetic to the incoming
Ronald Reagan administration,

1803
01:21:40,880 –> 01:21:45,120
which is, you know, Adam better
than anyone, was a very hawkish,

1804
01:21:45,280 –> 01:21:47,800
that’s putting it mildly.
The administration and the

1805
01:21:47,800 –> 01:21:51,120
atrocities that they did in
Central America and Iran Contra

1806
01:21:51,120 –> 01:21:53,480
and the corruption.
I was just shocked when I looked

1807
01:21:53,480 –> 01:21:56,120
into it and researched this
administration, just the amount

1808
01:21:56,120 –> 01:21:58,800
of corruption that was involved
and they were all pardoned.

1809
01:21:58,960 –> 01:22:00,280
The corruption didn’t go
anywhere.

1810
01:22:00,280 –> 01:22:03,000
Reagan, he’s a puppet as far as
I was concerned.

1811
01:22:03,000 –> 01:22:05,480
He’s an actor and he was, Bush
was behind him pulling the

1812
01:22:05,480 –> 01:22:06,920
strings, I’m pretty sure about
that.

1813
01:22:07,000 –> 01:22:10,280
And he did what he was told.
He came across as a great folksy

1814
01:22:10,280 –> 01:22:13,040
homesteader.
But I just think the people that

1815
01:22:13,040 –> 01:22:16,440
are around him, we’re not going
to allow his programme to not go

1816
01:22:16,440 –> 01:22:17,760
through.
And if the next 12 years, that

1817
01:22:17,760 –> 01:22:20,640
programme right up to the first
Iraq war was on steroids.

1818
01:22:20,640 –> 01:22:23,920
And, you know, America changed
from 1980 to the end of the Bush

1819
01:22:23,920 –> 01:22:26,800
first Bush administration.
Wow, those 12 years, not just

1820
01:22:26,800 –> 01:22:31,000
America, the whole world changed
from being a kind of it, it was,

1821
01:22:31,000 –> 01:22:32,680
it didn’t change from the better
as far as I’m concerned.

1822
01:22:32,800 –> 01:22:37,320
And so no, So I, I just think
Lennon, people underestimate and

1823
01:22:37,320 –> 01:22:41,960
forget just what a gobby, brave,
reckless man he was.

1824
01:22:41,960 –> 01:22:43,760
You know, and if he saw
something he didn’t like, he

1825
01:22:43,760 –> 01:22:46,120
didn’t care who it was, he’d say
it and he offered him to his

1826
01:22:46,120 –> 01:22:47,680
detriment.
And I think they knew this.

1827
01:22:47,680 –> 01:22:49,920
He was a loose cannon.
I think the religious element

1828
01:22:49,920 –> 01:22:51,760
does come into it.
I think the bigger than Jesus

1829
01:22:51,760 –> 01:22:55,400
thing was used on Mark.
There was a psychiatrist in

1830
01:22:55,520 –> 01:22:57,640
Hawaii.
He gave one interview and then

1831
01:22:57,640 –> 01:22:58,920
he disappeared down the memory
hall.

1832
01:22:59,160 –> 01:23:01,680
There’s a guy called Jules
Bernhardt who was a psychiatrist

1833
01:23:02,080 –> 01:23:03,880
slash hypnotist, another one of
these guys.

1834
01:23:04,360 –> 01:23:07,160
And he said he gave one
interview and he said that Mark

1835
01:23:07,160 –> 01:23:09,760
Chapman saw himself as a kind of
Christian avenging Angel.

1836
01:23:10,040 –> 01:23:12,480
And as John never mentioned the
stuff about Jesus and didn’t

1837
01:23:12,480 –> 01:23:15,680
make a comeback, then Mark that
the plot for Mark to kill him

1838
01:23:15,680 –> 01:23:18,360
wouldn’t have been activated.
So I think Jules Bernhardt gave

1839
01:23:18,360 –> 01:23:21,080
the game away there, that I
think Mark was not only being

1840
01:23:21,080 –> 01:23:22,720
used to use the capture in the
rye.

1841
01:23:22,720 –> 01:23:26,120
John then is a phony kind of
triggering in his mind, but I

1842
01:23:26,120 –> 01:23:30,440
think he was also set up as a
kind of Christian jihadi.

1843
01:23:30,560 –> 01:23:34,120
I think that was another part of
the Mark Chapman mindset.

1844
01:23:34,360 –> 01:23:37,040
He was a pretty far right
Southern guy, Mark Chapman not a

1845
01:23:37,040 –> 01:23:39,520
pleasant individual when it came
to his politics.

1846
01:23:39,520 –> 01:23:42,360
There are sort of some evidence
that he was quite racist and it

1847
01:23:42,360 –> 01:23:44,800
just wasn’t a particularly nice
guy when it came to that kind of

1848
01:23:44,800 –> 01:23:46,480
thing.
And I just think he, I think he

1849
01:23:46,480 –> 01:23:49,760
was partly willing and I think
he was partly abused.

1850
01:23:50,000 –> 01:23:52,920
And I think the team around him
would have been connected to

1851
01:23:52,920 –> 01:23:56,000
American government through kind
of support and affiliation and

1852
01:23:56,000 –> 01:23:58,160
kind of how they would have
wanted the outcome to happen

1853
01:23:58,160 –> 01:24:00,920
with regards to what Reagan did.
But I wouldn’t even say that the

1854
01:24:00,920 –> 01:24:02,720
CIA officially were sanctioning
this.

1855
01:24:02,720 –> 01:24:04,840
I just think it was people that
had connections to the CIA and

1856
01:24:04,920 –> 01:24:06,520
people had connections to the
military interest.

1857
01:24:06,680 –> 01:24:09,720
But I think if you’re looking
for a American intelligence

1858
01:24:09,720 –> 01:24:12,360
outfit that was more than likely
behind it, I think you’re

1859
01:24:12,360 –> 01:24:14,640
looking at, oh, and I you took,
you’re looking at the Navy

1860
01:24:14,640 –> 01:24:17,160
intelligence more than anybody
because there’s just wherever

1861
01:24:17,160 –> 01:24:20,000
you look in this story is the
fingerprint of Navy

1862
01:24:20,000 –> 01:24:22,200
intelligence, including Charles
McGowan.

1863
01:24:22,200 –> 01:24:24,080
I’m not saying for a minute
Charles McGowan was behind the

1864
01:24:24,080 –> 01:24:27,120
plot, but right, he’s got some
very serious questions to answer

1865
01:24:27,120 –> 01:24:28,840
Charles.
And it’s just very odd that a

1866
01:24:28,840 –> 01:24:32,400
day after the murder, he flew to
Mark in New York on the dime of

1867
01:24:32,400 –> 01:24:34,520
another preacher called Stephen
Alford, who was committed to

1868
01:24:34,520 –> 01:24:37,320
Richard Nixon.
And, and this preacher, Stephen

1869
01:24:37,320 –> 01:24:41,120
Alford, funded Mark’s defense.
He got Charles McGowan to put

1870
01:24:41,120 –> 01:24:42,680
another preacher into Mark’s
cells.

1871
01:24:42,680 –> 01:24:44,440
Like, why?
Why are you doing all this,

1872
01:24:44,440 –> 01:24:46,120
Charles?
Why is Stephen Alford doing all

1873
01:24:46,120 –> 01:24:47,800
this?
You don’t know Mark Chapman.

1874
01:24:47,800 –> 01:24:50,800
He’s nothing to you.
Mark left to go to Hawaii in 77.

1875
01:24:50,960 –> 01:24:54,160
Why is Charles McGowan even
interested in Mark Chapman?

1876
01:24:54,480 –> 01:24:56,760
How did you know that Mark
Chapman was in New York that

1877
01:24:56,760 –> 01:24:58,000
night?
You know, they’ve got so many

1878
01:24:58,000 –> 01:25:00,600
questions to answer these guys.
And when you look at the people

1879
01:25:00,600 –> 01:25:03,560
that are connected to Alford and
McGowan, you’re looking at

1880
01:25:03,720 –> 01:25:07,360
Richard Nixon, you’re looking at
Joe Rogers, who was Ronald

1881
01:25:07,360 –> 01:25:10,120
Reagan’s main money man.
And you’re looking at people

1882
01:25:10,120 –> 01:25:14,040
like Cortes Cooper, who was a a
serious deep state Rand

1883
01:25:14,040 –> 01:25:17,360
corporation, Pentagon insider.
These people should not be

1884
01:25:17,360 –> 01:25:19,840
connected to Mark Chapman.
They just should not Mark

1885
01:25:19,840 –> 01:25:22,000
Chapman should be that guy that
we talked about right at the

1886
01:25:22,000 –> 01:25:26,240
start of this living above his
dad, mum and dad shot listening

1887
01:25:26,240 –> 01:25:28,720
to Judas Priest records
backwards and just an ultimate

1888
01:25:28,720 –> 01:25:31,960
loser who just suddenly snapped.
I could buy that.

1889
01:25:32,160 –> 01:25:36,240
I could totally buy that gets a
gun in a fit of Angus.

1890
01:25:36,240 –> 01:25:39,000
I want to be someone I’m going
to kill John Lennon.

1891
01:25:39,280 –> 01:25:41,680
That’s not the Mark Chapman
story and that’s not who was

1892
01:25:41,680 –> 01:25:44,880
around him.
So I, I really hope, Adam, that

1893
01:25:45,160 –> 01:25:47,760
people take this baton on now
and there’s more to uncover

1894
01:25:47,760 –> 01:25:49,720
here.
We need to find out more about

1895
01:25:49,720 –> 01:25:52,240
these people who are around Mark
Chapman because we’re running

1896
01:25:52,240 –> 01:25:54,120
out of time here because a lot
of these people are getting very

1897
01:25:54,120 –> 01:25:56,920
old and we’re going to be around
much longer.

1898
01:25:57,240 –> 01:26:00,680
And I want accountability.
And I think, I think the NYPD

1899
01:26:00,680 –> 01:26:03,080
and the DA’s office need to
release Jose per demo statement.

1900
01:26:03,320 –> 01:26:04,960
They need to release crime scene
photos.

1901
01:26:05,240 –> 01:26:08,640
They need to tell us coherently
why Mark Chapman thinks he’s

1902
01:26:08,640 –> 01:26:11,120
done something he hasn’t done.
And we just, we need some

1903
01:26:11,120 –> 01:26:12,920
answers.
Jonathan Marks, he needs to come

1904
01:26:12,920 –> 01:26:16,200
out of the woodwork now and say,
did you know that Neil Klein was

1905
01:26:16,200 –> 01:26:19,600
on a documentary boasting about
his CIA mentoring candidate

1906
01:26:20,240 –> 01:26:22,960
credentials a year before you
sent him into Mark Chapman cell?

1907
01:26:22,960 –> 01:26:24,120
How could you not have known
that?

1908
01:26:24,120 –> 01:26:26,240
Were you comfortable sending him
in?

1909
01:26:26,440 –> 01:26:28,600
So yeah, there’s a lot more to
come.

1910
01:26:28,800 –> 01:26:32,880
Yeah, it seems like it.
I know we haven’t covered

1911
01:26:32,880 –> 01:26:34,440
everything in the book,
obviously.

1912
01:26:34,640 –> 01:26:38,680
Is there anything we haven’t
talked about before we wrap up

1913
01:26:38,680 –> 01:26:41,400
that you want to make sure
people know?

1914
01:26:41,680 –> 01:26:44,440
Yeah, I think the final thing we
can talk about is the autopsy,

1915
01:26:44,480 –> 01:26:48,280
just quickly.
Yeah, the guy who who did the

1916
01:26:48,280 –> 01:26:50,040
autopsy was a guy called Elliot
Gross.

1917
01:26:50,120 –> 01:26:52,680
And I haven’t seen the autopsy,
but I’ve spoken to a lot of

1918
01:26:52,680 –> 01:26:54,800
people who have, and I’ve got a
pretty good rundown of what’s on

1919
01:26:54,800 –> 01:26:57,960
it.
Elliot Gross talks about wounds

1920
01:26:58,000 –> 01:27:01,360
in the side and front, and he
talks about wounds on the lower

1921
01:27:01,360 –> 01:27:04,720
back and the upper back.
He talks about it quite sort of

1922
01:27:04,720 –> 01:27:08,360
chaotic bullet wounds that are
kind of literally all over

1923
01:27:08,360 –> 01:27:09,680
John’s body.
Really, they’re coming out at

1924
01:27:09,680 –> 01:27:11,200
different angles all over the
place.

1925
01:27:11,640 –> 01:27:12,840
He doesn’t talk about four in
the front.

1926
01:27:12,840 –> 01:27:13,920
He doesn’t talk about 3 in the
back.

1927
01:27:14,200 –> 01:27:15,960
Two things people should know
about Elliot Gross.

1928
01:27:15,960 –> 01:27:17,960
One thing is he turned up on the
night of the murder at the

1929
01:27:17,960 –> 01:27:20,360
Roosevelt hospital, totally out.
The blue wasn’t supposed to be

1930
01:27:20,360 –> 01:27:22,080
there.
The nurses were furious because

1931
01:27:22,080 –> 01:27:25,600
he asked them to unwrap John’s
body, unwrap the wounds so he

1932
01:27:25,600 –> 01:27:28,400
could take a very quick look at
the insurance and outs of the

1933
01:27:28,400 –> 01:27:30,520
front and back.
I think that was very nefarious.

1934
01:27:30,520 –> 01:27:32,680
I think someone sent Elliot
Gross there to actually get the

1935
01:27:32,680 –> 01:27:35,960
low down on exactly where John
twins were the very next

1936
01:27:35,960 –> 01:27:37,600
morning.
Then Elliot Gross did the

1937
01:27:37,600 –> 01:27:40,280
autopsy on John and that’s an
autopsy that obviously

1938
01:27:40,280 –> 01:27:43,720
contradicts what the nurses
doctors saw, but does kind of

1939
01:27:44,000 –> 01:27:46,520
help the official narrative that
Mark might have shot him in the

1940
01:27:46,520 –> 01:27:48,200
back.
People should also know that

1941
01:27:48,200 –> 01:27:51,440
Elliot Gross has had multiple
accusations throughout his

1942
01:27:51,440 –> 01:27:55,640
career, and I mean multiple
falsifying autopsies on behalf

1943
01:27:55,640 –> 01:27:58,120
of the NYPD.
It should be said he was never

1944
01:27:58,120 –> 01:27:59,480
convicted.
He always got off.

1945
01:27:59,760 –> 01:28:03,000
He often had to move on to
another state because his name

1946
01:28:03,000 –> 01:28:06,240
was so badly dragged through the
mud in New York, for a start.

1947
01:28:06,240 –> 01:28:10,000
But yeah, Elliot Gross is not a
guy, I would say personally that

1948
01:28:10,000 –> 01:28:12,720
has an unimpeachable record.
And it’s just a shame that the

1949
01:28:12,720 –> 01:28:16,400
guy that got to undertake John’s
autopsy was a guy who has

1950
01:28:16,400 –> 01:28:20,040
multiple accusations of fraud in
regards to autopsies.

1951
01:28:20,120 –> 01:28:23,800
So is that a coincidence again?
Maybe, maybe not.

1952
01:28:23,800 –> 01:28:26,960
But one thing he did do lastly
just said and when he did go and

1953
01:28:26,960 –> 01:28:30,760
ask Barbara and D the nurses to
take off John’s bandages and see

1954
01:28:30,760 –> 01:28:34,080
those bullets again, is he gave
the nurses yet another chance to

1955
01:28:34,320 –> 01:28:37,760
see John’s wounds up close.
So they saw John’s wounds three

1956
01:28:37,760 –> 01:28:39,040
times.
They saw it when he first came

1957
01:28:39,040 –> 01:28:41,080
in the hour room.
They saw his wounds when they

1958
01:28:41,080 –> 01:28:43,600
first washed his body and
shrouded it and they saw his

1959
01:28:43,600 –> 01:28:46,480
wounds again when Elliot Gross
asked them to defraud John and

1960
01:28:46,480 –> 01:28:47,760
then they had to re shroud him
again.

1961
01:28:48,080 –> 01:28:52,360
So they know these nurses know
for sure where John Lennon was

1962
01:28:52,360 –> 01:28:56,280
shot and they said he was shot
four times up and left chest 3

1963
01:28:56,280 –> 01:28:58,960
coming out of up and left back
as this Doctor Howard say.

1964
01:28:59,040 –> 01:29:02,320
And there’s no way on earth Mark
Chapman, from where he was

1965
01:29:02,320 –> 01:29:04,640
standing and where John was
standing could have pulled that

1966
01:29:04,640 –> 01:29:07,680
off.
So this this is the crux of the

1967
01:29:07,680 –> 01:29:11,400
matter.
Yeah, I hope there is more news

1968
01:29:11,400 –> 01:29:14,760
about this at some point.
I’m hoping to do a documentary.

1969
01:29:14,840 –> 01:29:16,600
I’m hoping to do.
I’ve got a documentary and a

1970
01:29:16,600 –> 01:29:18,960
film in the works, but they’ll
have to be done right.

1971
01:29:19,000 –> 01:29:21,680
I won’t be doing anything that
doesn’t tell the full story.

1972
01:29:21,680 –> 01:29:24,680
So, and people have, you know,
it’s like film and TVI heard you

1973
01:29:24,680 –> 01:29:27,520
guys talking about the recent
Octopus stuff on Netflix.

1974
01:29:27,520 –> 01:29:30,280
It’s good to get some of this
info out, but it’s never put out

1975
01:29:30,440 –> 01:29:32,560
fully.
There’s always stuff they they

1976
01:29:32,560 –> 01:29:34,440
don’t say.
So I want to say it.

1977
01:29:34,760 –> 01:29:36,320
I want to get the story out
properly.

1978
01:29:36,360 –> 01:29:38,720
I hope this will come out later
this year.

1979
01:29:39,040 –> 01:29:41,120
But if it doesn’t come out the
way I want it to come out, it’s

1980
01:29:41,120 –> 01:29:42,880
not going to come out.
But my book’s out there now.

1981
01:29:42,880 –> 01:29:45,440
The information is out there, so
I hope people will buy the book

1982
01:29:45,760 –> 01:29:47,840
and they will pick up the
information and run with it and

1983
01:29:47,880 –> 01:29:50,720
and dig out some new stuff and
find some new stuff out.

1984
01:29:50,720 –> 01:29:53,960
There’s still time.
Yeah, we’ll link to the book in

1985
01:29:53,960 –> 01:29:58,080
the show notes, obviously, where
else in the meantime, between

1986
01:29:58,080 –> 01:30:01,840
the book and hopefully the
documentary coming out, where

1987
01:30:01,840 –> 01:30:05,280
can people keep up with you and
updates on this?

1988
01:30:05,680 –> 01:30:07,400
Great.
Thank you, Adam.

1989
01:30:07,480 –> 01:30:10,560
I’ve got a sub stack David
Whedon at substack.com where all

1990
01:30:10,560 –> 01:30:12,840
my Lennon articles are on.
I’ve got a YouTube channel,

1991
01:30:12,840 –> 01:30:15,840
Assassination of Lennon, where
there’s a lot of footage of

1992
01:30:15,840 –> 01:30:19,160
people talking about the case,
especially Ron Hoffman talking

1993
01:30:19,160 –> 01:30:20,360
about being shot at the
vestibule.

1994
01:30:20,360 –> 01:30:23,240
That’s a clip where we’re seeing
there’s you can get me on

1995
01:30:23,400 –> 01:30:26,000
Twitter X where it’s called at
Lennon Murder.

1996
01:30:26,040 –> 01:30:28,320
And yeah, just, yeah, come and
message me.

1997
01:30:28,320 –> 01:30:29,600
Come and talk to me.
Come and follow me.

1998
01:30:29,600 –> 01:30:31,400
Come and get involved in the
conversation.

1999
01:30:31,400 –> 01:30:33,120
There is new stuff coming out
all the time.

2000
01:30:33,520 –> 01:30:35,280
I’ve got a couple of articles
going up soon.

2001
01:30:35,280 –> 01:30:37,720
I I am getting new information
given to me all the time.

2002
01:30:37,720 –> 01:30:41,080
So this is ongoing.
And yeah, just, and all I can

2003
01:30:41,080 –> 01:30:44,720
say to people out there is it it
spread the word just to spread

2004
01:30:44,720 –> 01:30:46,520
the word.
Just there’s too many people who

2005
01:30:46,520 –> 01:30:50,760
don’t know about this.
And he was a a major musical

2006
01:30:50,920 –> 01:30:55,040
artistic icon.
He he deserves there to be no

2007
01:30:55,400 –> 01:30:58,080
question marks over his death.
So let’s hope we can get it all

2008
01:30:58,080 –> 01:31:01,840
cleared up.
But you know, hey, JFK, is that

2009
01:31:01,840 –> 01:31:03,920
cleared up?
No, no.

2010
01:31:04,640 –> 01:31:07,800
I’m not that hopeful.
Yeah, Well, thank you so much

2011
01:31:07,880 –> 01:31:10,320
for doing the episode.
I really appreciate it.

2012
01:31:10,440 –> 01:31:14,200
I appreciate all the work and
research that went into this

2013
01:31:14,200 –> 01:31:16,320
book.
It is a fascinating book.

2014
01:31:16,320 –> 01:31:20,480
I hope people pick up a copy and
read it because it make a very

2015
01:31:20,480 –> 01:31:24,560
compelling case, mildly.
And I think that’s it.

2016
01:31:24,640 –> 01:31:26,320
Thank you, everyone, for
listening.

2017
01:31:26,560 –> 01:31:28,800
I appreciate it.
We’re going to get out of here.

2018
01:31:28,880 –> 01:31:31,080
Hey, David Whelan, say goodbye.
Bye.

2019
01:31:31,400 –> 01:31:32,320
Bye.
Thank you, Adam.

2020
01:31:32,560 –> 01:31:41,320
Goodbye everybody, we love you.
People of Earth, your planet has

2021
01:31:41,560 –> 01:31:54,240
to be destroyed.
Your planet has to be destroyed.