Adam and Olivia discuss a Netflix documentary that does a kind of terrible job of telling a fascinating story about an American journalist who was maybe murdered by the government.
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Welcome to Conspiracy the Show,
the world’s most trusted
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conspiracy theory podcast with
your hosts Adam Todd Brown and
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Olivia Hydar.
Hey everybody, welcome to
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Conspiracy the show.
I’m your host Adam Todd Brown,
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joining me as Co host Olivia
Hydar’s here.
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Hey, hello.
Olivia, how’s it going?
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It’s going well.
I just got over COVID, but I’m
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feeling much better than I had
been for the last month,
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basically.
But.
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Yeah, it’s been a while since
you’ve been on an app.
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I know, I know.
It’s been shitty time at the
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Hydar household.
Yeah, it’s crazy that you’re out
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with COVID, cause Covid’s not
real.
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Am I right?
This is a conspiracy pod.
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Right, exactly.
Of course.
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Yeah.
No, I actually just had.
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I don’t know what’s a good fake
one.
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Just the flu, I guess.
Yeah.
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Bad cold.
Something like cold?
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Yeah, definitely.
It was a bad cold that made me
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not able to breathe for weeks.
Well, I am happy to have you
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back.
We.
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Are I’m glad to be back.
We are talking about some shit
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this week.
Yes.
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This is a story I’ve looked into
covering a few different times,
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but there weren’t a lot of great
sources out there.
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There’s not a lot of great
sources in general for this
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story because it’s one of those
stories where like some of it we
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know is true and some of it
could go either way, right?
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But we are covering it now on
account of a Netflix documentary
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called The Octopus Murders.
I believe the subtitle is an
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American conspiracy.
Something like that.
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Yeah, I I gotta say right off
the bat, I was very disappointed
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at the lack of octopus in this
entire.
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Series, yeah.
It would have been great if the
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conclusion here was that Octopi
were out there murdering
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journalists.
That would have been amazing.
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Yeah, unfortunately it’s not
that.
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I believe we do see one octopus
though.
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There’s yeah, there’s some B
roll where we see an octopus
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either or.
I just saw an octopus on TV this
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morning.
Right.
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Have put two and two together
but I think we see one.
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But The Octopus Murders covers
the story of a journalist named
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Danny Casalaro, who was probably
murdered for over the story he
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was.
That’s a thing.
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I talked about it on another
episode recently because
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murdered journalists are a thing
that come up a lot when we’re
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wagging our finger at other
countries saying, hey, they
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fucking kill journalists over
there.
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Meanwhile, I don’t know if
anyone’s ever looked up where
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the United States places on the
freedom of the press scale, but
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we’re like firmly in the middle,
Like we’re not the beacon of
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freedom of the press that people
make it out to be.
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And I do think, be it the
government or just like rich
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interests, I think journalists
do get murdered in this country
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over stories they’re covering.
No, they do.
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It happened in Vegas recently.
A guy who was, like on the City
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Council or something, murdered a
journalist for looking into
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corruption in his office.
There’s the Michael Hastings
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case, like he died in a car
accident.
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But there are a lot of whispers
that it might have also been to
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murder.
We just last year we think it
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was covered the Gary Webb also.
Right.
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Gary Webb, weirdly, is the one
where I’m like, I don’t think
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government murdered him.
They had every reason to, but I
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don’t think they did.
But Danny Castellaro, I think
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someone might have murdered this
guy.
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But it this documentary doesn’t
just cover him.
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It also covers another
journalist named Christian
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Hansen.
Yes, who caught wind of the
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Danny Castellaro story around
2013 and it seems in the
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beginning like he becomes very
obsessed with this case in a
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detrimental way.
Yeah, and spoiler we we talked
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about it a little bit before we
started recording.
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That doesn’t really pan out.
No, not really at all.
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Honestly, he seems like a very
normal and well adjusted guy.
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Like you see one clip of him and
they keeps showing it and it’s a
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clip where he’s got really short
hair and he looks like he’s kind
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of gaunt compared to what he
looks like now.
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And he does seem like he’s a
little wigged out.
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But that hit, you see that one
clip over and over and by the
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end of this he’s just like, yeah
man, it’s too much for me.
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I give up, which is like a
healthy way to go, right?
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And I think that plays into why
this documentary is too long.
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Definitely, definitely.
I didn’t need Christian’s
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journey in this whatsoever.
I Which is.
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It’s funny because that does
seem to be the entire impetus
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for it being made, yes, but it
is the least essential element
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of the entire program.
I would go so far as to say that
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including his journey in this,
and it is his journey, it’s like
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his ups and downs and like his
emotional conclusion right to he
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goes through.
And I think it actually kind of
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hurts the Danny Castellaro story
a little bit because by by the
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end of this, a lot of the
interview subjects are treating
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this like Danny Castellaro fell
down some kind of conspiracy
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theory hole.
Sure.
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And I don’t think that’s
accurate.
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It seems like he was just on to
a story, and he got further into
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that story than anyone else had
gotten.
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Right.
I can see that maybe drove him a
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little crazy, but.
All of the most outlandish sort
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of cul de sacs that this
documentary series takes, and
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there are a lot and that make it
really hard to follow what is
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supposed to be important.
But almost all of the little
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loops that you go down that
don’t actually add up to
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anything are all connected to
Christian’s story, not Danny’s
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at all.
Like the lady with the We’ll
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talk about it, but the fucking
Zapruder lady drove me up the
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wall.
I hated that so much.
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Yeah, it really was a detriment
to this story, which is an
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interesting story, yeah.
You, they could have totally
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made a very engaging feature
length documentary with the same
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talking heads, because most of
the talking heads are people who
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spoke to Danny Castilleros, like
his family, right?
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Yeah, exactly.
So you could have, you could
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keep most of these exact same
things and just focus it only on
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this thing, on Danny’s story,
and it would be, I think, a much
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more effective documentary.
And one of the things that came
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up when I was toying with the
idea of covering this story
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earlier on this podcast, there’s
a YouTube documentary out there
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that is like 90 minutes.
And I was always like, yeah,
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it’s a YouTube documentary
though, that that to me feels
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like basing a podcast off a
podcast.
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I I don’t disagree.
So I never really bothered with
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it, but I bet if I watch that
it’s probably the better version
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of this story, to the point that
I’ll probably link to it.
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It’s Joe Notes.
Because if nothing else, I bet
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it’s a lot more concise and
because it’s on YouTube,
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probably just batshit insane.
I hope.
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Yeah, I mean, The thing is that
might be better, but this is the
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one that most people will
probably watch.
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And know so and so.
One of the first people they
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talk to is Tony Casalaro.
He gives us a bunch of
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background on Castellaro.
That’s always my least favorite
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part.
Like, I know you want to
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humanize the subjects in a
documentary.
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I’m always like, don’t bore us.
Get to the chorus, you know.
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I don’t disagree.
He talks about how Danny started
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this trade publication called
Computer Age, and at one point
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he gets tipped off about this
story involving a company called
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Inslaw Incorporated.
Right and Inslaw Incorporated
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was hired to create software for
the Department of Justice.
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That software was called
Promise, and it is kind of the
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centerpiece of this story
because it’s described at first
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as a software that establishes
connections between court cases
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that are already out there to
look for.
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Oh well, this is connected to
this.
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Maybe it’s a bigger thing,
right?
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And it seems like someone pretty
early on within the government
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was like, oh, I bet that can
establish connections between a
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lot of things, court cases,
right.
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Because this turns into like spy
software basically is
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essentially what it becomes.
And they at one point the
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Department of Justice.
Like this part isn’t conspiracy
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theory.
I don’t think they just stole
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this software from the people
who made it.
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They withheld payments that were
due to this company, knowing
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that this company could not
survive not getting those
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payments on time.
And then they just swooped in
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and took the company from them.
Yeah, which that at first is the
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question here.
Like why?
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Why did they do that?
Right?
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Do you feel like they answer
that question?
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Not really.
Other than that, just sounds
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like business as usual for the
government trying to get its
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hands on an asset that it wants.
Yeah, like they could have just
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bought it, you would think.
Maybe, but then it would have
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cost more.
That’s that’s true.
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They a judge.
Eventually this goes to court.
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And the judge did eventually
order the Department of Justice
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to pay Innslaw $6.8 million on
the grounds that they stole that
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software.
And that judge was immediately
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fired from that role.
The only federal bankruptcy
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judge fired that year.
Go figure.
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And he was, I was replaced and
the judge who replaced him
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overturned that decision, which
that’s a thing you see at a a
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bunch of different points
throughout this is someone will
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get really close to either being
brought to justice or being
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brought to justice And the
government just steps in and
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it’s like Nope, we’re not going
to do it.
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We’re not going to arrest that
person.
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So that’s suspicious.
Like whenever I see that I
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always that that gets the the
old cockles up.
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So Bill Hamilton, he’s the
person at Inslaw who basically
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the software was stolen from and
he is a key figure in this.
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In 1990, Danny Castellaro takes
on the story and reaches out to
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Bill Hamilton, who tells him
that if this investigation
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mushrooms, it could take down a
bunch of people in Congress.
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And I don’t know, I guess this
is the difference between me and
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a journalist.
If I heard that, I’d maybe be
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like, all right, I’m just going
to go talk about sports.
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Probably then, like I don’t want
to die for podcast listens.
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Right, You don’t want to die for
Computer Age magazine.
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Yeah, yeah, we did on this
podcast cover a story at one
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point.
The episode was called the new
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MK Ultra and it was about the
Finders which was very much acia
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connected child sex trafficking
ring.
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Oh, one of those.
Yeah, and you see the same thing
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in that story, Like
investigations will be launched
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and then they get to a certain
point and they just get shut
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down.
And when we did that episode,
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pure coincidence, I’m sure, but
someone like, showed up and went
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through my trash.
Oh, I remember.
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That.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was.
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It was alarming.
I never did the second part of
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that story.
I should we should do it.
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We should do it.
There’s.
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Absolutely.
Because there’s more.
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There’s more to it.
If there’s two parts, it’s but
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that’s also not why I haven’t
done it.
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It’s just I haven’t gone back.
The research is not the easiest
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and it’s kind of like this story
where when you start researching
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it, there’s so much like this
podcast could just be about
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that.
I think we were going to do a
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00:13:26,520 –> 00:13:31,000
like multi part series about
just one aspect of that story
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and then it never came to
fruition.
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I’ll get back to it, don’t
worry.
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00:13:35,680 –> 00:13:40,920
So Bill Hamilton realizes that
the real reason for the DOJ
220
00:13:41,080 –> 00:13:45,440
trying to steal the software was
to enrich friends of the Reagan
221
00:13:45,520 –> 00:13:48,280
administration.
And when I heard that, I was
222
00:13:48,280 –> 00:13:54,280
like, no, that’s not true.
Of course, yeah, of.
223
00:13:54,960 –> 00:13:59,120
Course that’s true.
And there’s a phone call that
224
00:13:59,120 –> 00:14:05,360
you hear in the first episode
where it’s Bill Hamilton talking
225
00:14:05,360 –> 00:14:11,520
to someone about how Danny got
financial records showing wire
226
00:14:11,520 –> 00:14:16,200
transfers from England that were
connected to a guy named Earl
227
00:14:16,200 –> 00:14:20,120
Bryan and a bunch of employees
in the Department of Justice.
228
00:14:20,240 –> 00:14:22,880
And the guy he’s talking to
goes, oh shit.
229
00:14:22,880 –> 00:14:24,840
And we never hear anything else
about that.
230
00:14:24,840 –> 00:14:28,840
We hear more about Earl Bryan,
but that phone call never gets
231
00:14:29,000 –> 00:14:31,720
revisited.
It’s just one of the things that
232
00:14:31,920 –> 00:14:37,200
they can pick up and drop.
And so Danny starts getting
233
00:14:37,200 –> 00:14:41,320
weird phone calls and threats.
He tells his brother if he dies
234
00:14:41,640 –> 00:14:44,320
in some kind of accident, he was
actually murdered.
235
00:14:44,720 –> 00:14:46,920
Sure enough.
August 10th, 1991.
236
00:14:46,920 –> 00:14:48,760
Martin’s birthday, West
Virginia.
237
00:14:49,120 –> 00:14:50,560
Oh shit.
Happy birthday.
238
00:14:50,880 –> 00:14:52,800
Yeah, I was four years old.
Nice.
239
00:14:52,960 –> 00:14:54,640
Where were you?
Whereabouts.
240
00:14:54,920 –> 00:14:56,120
Yeah.
Where were you when this
241
00:14:56,120 –> 00:14:59,160
happened?
Well, I did have a special
242
00:14:59,160 –> 00:15:03,320
birthday in West Virginia, but
you know, nothing related to
243
00:15:03,320 –> 00:15:06,360
this.
Danny is found dead in a room at
244
00:15:06,360 –> 00:15:09,720
the Sheraton Hotel.
He there’s very short suicide
245
00:15:09,720 –> 00:15:12,240
note, very short.
He’s dead in the bathtub from
246
00:15:12,240 –> 00:15:15,200
slit wrists.
There’s weird handprints and
247
00:15:15,200 –> 00:15:18,200
spray marks on the wall.
Yeah, which?
248
00:15:18,280 –> 00:15:22,840
There’s a medic interviewed in
this Don Shirley, who to this
249
00:15:22,840 –> 00:15:25,840
day seems very suspicious about
what happened.
250
00:15:26,200 –> 00:15:29,720
I like that we see Don Shirley
up top and he’s like the police
251
00:15:29,720 –> 00:15:31,960
called it a suicide.
I don’t agree.
252
00:15:32,040 –> 00:15:36,440
I think it was something else.
And then he reappears near the
253
00:15:36,440 –> 00:15:38,480
end.
I don’t, I don’t know if you
254
00:15:38,480 –> 00:15:43,360
caught that, but there’s a scene
where the, a spokesperson for
255
00:15:43,360 –> 00:15:47,440
the police in Martinsburg is
like, yeah, we did an autopsy
256
00:15:47,440 –> 00:15:51,400
and looked into it and we didn’t
find anything that contradicts
257
00:15:51,400 –> 00:15:54,960
the ruling of suicide.
And for one, the chief of police
258
00:15:54,960 –> 00:15:58,240
and the lead detective walked
out of that press conference,
259
00:15:59,000 –> 00:16:01,600
which the suggestion is they did
not agree with that
260
00:16:01,600 –> 00:16:04,920
determination.
But you also see Don Shirley in
261
00:16:04,920 –> 00:16:07,440
that footage.
He’s sitting off to the side and
262
00:16:07,440 –> 00:16:10,400
he’s obviously much younger and
he’s wearing his medic uniform
263
00:16:10,480 –> 00:16:12,960
and he’s just shaking his head
no the whole time.
264
00:16:13,640 –> 00:16:16,560
So I thought that part was neat.
And one of the things he
265
00:16:16,560 –> 00:16:21,280
mentions is that the cuts on the
arms were too deep, right, for
266
00:16:21,280 –> 00:16:24,320
him to have cut himself that
many times.
267
00:16:24,440 –> 00:16:26,920
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, he says that they it
268
00:16:26,920 –> 00:16:30,360
cut so deep that they cut the
tendons, which obviously keep
269
00:16:30,360 –> 00:16:33,040
you from grasping after that
point.
270
00:16:33,120 –> 00:16:35,360
And is that just a government
thing?
271
00:16:35,440 –> 00:16:41,080
Because there’s also a suicide
that is linked to the Oklahoma
272
00:16:41,080 –> 00:16:44,800
City bombing.
It was a cop who was like the
273
00:16:44,800 –> 00:16:49,640
first person on the scene and as
soon as it happened, like his
274
00:16:49,640 –> 00:16:52,160
whole thing was.
It is not what they’re saying it
275
00:16:52,160 –> 00:16:54,280
is.
It’s very different than what
276
00:16:54,280 –> 00:16:57,280
the government is claiming.
And that guy.
277
00:16:57,520 –> 00:17:02,640
His death was ruled a suicide.
He was found to have cut himself
278
00:17:02,640 –> 00:17:07,440
up a bunch in his own car and
then got out of his car, walked
279
00:17:07,440 –> 00:17:11,680
a mile through terrain that
included a Creek that he had to
280
00:17:11,720 –> 00:17:14,240
traverse and a fence he had to
climb.
281
00:17:14,560 –> 00:17:18,880
Did all of that just to get to
an empty field where he shot
282
00:17:18,880 –> 00:17:24,480
himself with a gun that wasn’t
found until the FBI showed up a
283
00:17:24,480 –> 00:17:27,800
few hours later.
It was found 50 feet away from
284
00:17:27,800 –> 00:17:29,440
him.
Is that just the government
285
00:17:29,440 –> 00:17:32,200
being like, all right, how much
can we make this look like a
286
00:17:32,200 –> 00:17:36,400
murder and still to believe it’s
a suicide?
287
00:17:37,000 –> 00:17:39,920
Yeah, yeah, probably.
Well, you know, he shot himself
288
00:17:39,960 –> 00:17:44,120
and and had enough time to throw
the gun 50 feet away.
289
00:17:44,200 –> 00:17:47,560
Yeah, I don’t get that.
That actually happened in Sioux
290
00:17:47,560 –> 00:17:50,720
Falls, SD, too.
I don’t remember the guy’s name,
291
00:17:50,720 –> 00:17:55,040
but there was a professor who he
was found shot in the head on
292
00:17:55,040 –> 00:17:59,520
campus and the gun was found in
a dumpster 50 yards away, and
293
00:17:59,520 –> 00:18:03,640
they were in a suicide.
It’s like, what are you talking
294
00:18:03,640 –> 00:18:06,840
about?
That is the laziest police work.
295
00:18:07,280 –> 00:18:08,680
Yeah.
Nothing ever came of it.
296
00:18:08,680 –> 00:18:09,840
No.
So yeah.
297
00:18:09,920 –> 00:18:14,800
Also, all of Danny’s notes about
the Inslaw case were missing.
298
00:18:14,880 –> 00:18:16,440
Which?
Yeah, his like briefcase and
299
00:18:16,440 –> 00:18:19,440
stuff was gone.
Yeah, which that’s suspicious.
300
00:18:19,440 –> 00:18:22,080
I mean, it could just be a
run-of-the-mill robbery, but do
301
00:18:22,080 –> 00:18:24,720
robberies usually go that way?
Right.
302
00:18:24,800 –> 00:18:26,640
Like.
Yeah, you don’t make a person
303
00:18:26,640 –> 00:18:30,160
get naked and slit their wrists
a bunch and write a suicide note
304
00:18:30,160 –> 00:18:33,760
for a fucking basic ass.
I need drug money Robbery.
305
00:18:34,200 –> 00:18:36,040
Right, right.
It’s a little much.
306
00:18:36,720 –> 00:18:40,200
Near the end of episode one, a
name comes in Michael
307
00:18:40,200 –> 00:18:42,800
Reconocuto.
Every time I heard that name, I
308
00:18:42,800 –> 00:18:44,480
just thought it sounded like
deli me.
309
00:18:44,680 –> 00:18:48,600
It does, yeah.
It definitely gives food vibes,
310
00:18:48,800 –> 00:18:51,840
that name.
And there’s a recording, a
311
00:18:51,840 –> 00:18:56,440
voicemail or a a phone call
recording where someone’s like,
312
00:18:56,440 –> 00:18:59,360
I don’t know how you heard that
name, but you can get killed
313
00:18:59,360 –> 00:19:01,200
just for knowing that name.
Yeah.
314
00:19:01,280 –> 00:19:03,360
And I don’t know.
I’m always skeptical.
315
00:19:04,000 –> 00:19:07,760
Well, I especially after
watching the series, I’m
316
00:19:07,760 –> 00:19:12,320
skeptical about that statement.
This guy, I mean, this guy might
317
00:19:12,320 –> 00:19:16,240
have done stuff, but he also
says a lot of stuff.
318
00:19:16,600 –> 00:19:19,040
Yeah, I mean, he did go to
prison.
319
00:19:19,400 –> 00:19:22,960
There’s.
And I do believe a lot of what
320
00:19:22,960 –> 00:19:26,520
he says, sure.
But it does seem like there’s
321
00:19:26,600 –> 00:19:32,160
kind of like Mirage men vibes
around him where he seems like
322
00:19:32,200 –> 00:19:36,320
one of those government people
whose sole job it is is to just
323
00:19:36,320 –> 00:19:39,280
go out.
And when someone’s on to a
324
00:19:39,280 –> 00:19:43,480
story, you just feed them all
the craziest information you can
325
00:19:45,120 –> 00:19:48,080
so they end up chasing false
leads that you can easily
326
00:19:48,080 –> 00:19:52,240
discredit and make them seem
like a liar or a bad journalist.
327
00:19:52,600 –> 00:19:56,400
Yeah.
And it is suggested at one point
328
00:19:56,400 –> 00:19:59,280
in this that that could have
been a little bit of what was
329
00:19:59,280 –> 00:20:02,880
happening with Danny, that he
was sort of getting conned,
330
00:20:03,000 –> 00:20:07,280
Yeah, by people who were sending
him on leads that they knew were
331
00:20:07,280 –> 00:20:10,720
never really gonna materialize.
That’s kind of the alternate.
332
00:20:11,000 –> 00:20:13,920
Theory here.
It’s either he was murdered over
333
00:20:14,000 –> 00:20:18,400
what he knew about this promise
software, or he chased this
334
00:20:18,400 –> 00:20:21,120
story for so long nothing came
of it.
335
00:20:21,120 –> 00:20:23,880
He got despondent over that and
killed himself.
336
00:20:24,280 –> 00:20:29,040
Yeah, and kind of Someone kind
of drove him crazy is the idea,
337
00:20:29,280 –> 00:20:33,920
which, you know, after watching
this, I kind of get, I can see
338
00:20:33,920 –> 00:20:35,880
how that would happen.
Yeah.
339
00:20:36,080 –> 00:20:39,880
I’m kind of of the opinion, why
not both like the top
340
00:20:40,560 –> 00:20:41,800
commercial?
Sure.
341
00:20:41,800 –> 00:20:44,520
I don’t think we’re ever
presented with enough evidence
342
00:20:44,520 –> 00:20:48,280
to go either way, honestly.
But I do think, yeah, I mean
343
00:20:48,400 –> 00:20:50,080
it’s one or the other,
definitely.
344
00:20:50,560 –> 00:20:54,840
There’s a witness near the end
that makes me lean toward
345
00:20:54,920 –> 00:20:58,400
murder.
But yeah, as it’s presented, it
346
00:20:58,520 –> 00:21:00,800
does seem like it could go
either way.
347
00:21:00,880 –> 00:21:04,000
The And yeah, this is where I
have in the notes that I could
348
00:21:04,000 –> 00:21:06,760
do without the Christian Hansen.
Yeah and yeah.
349
00:21:07,000 –> 00:21:09,840
‘Cause, yeah, me and my wife
tried watching this at first.
350
00:21:09,840 –> 00:21:13,760
We watched the first episode.
Yeah, she was like, they are
351
00:21:13,760 –> 00:21:16,800
dragging this out.
She gave up.
352
00:21:16,800 –> 00:21:22,320
I might have if I wasn’t
covering this for an episode.
353
00:21:22,360 –> 00:21:25,760
Yeah, I definitely would have,
but yeah.
354
00:21:26,760 –> 00:21:31,320
So there’s a bunch of stuff
about Michael Reconocuto.
355
00:21:31,480 –> 00:21:33,680
We’re just going to call him
Mike from here on out.
356
00:21:33,880 –> 00:21:35,680
A lot of stuff about his
background.
357
00:21:35,680 –> 00:21:38,880
He was arrested for making drugs
in an underwater lab, which
358
00:21:38,880 –> 00:21:42,240
that’s just cool.
That’s the coolest thing I’ve
359
00:21:42,240 –> 00:21:44,760
ever heard.
I would watch that documentary.
360
00:21:45,200 –> 00:21:47,760
Yeah, see, I would just watch a
documentary about how to make an
361
00:21:47,760 –> 00:21:51,720
underwater drug.
Lab had me at that.
362
00:21:51,720 –> 00:21:54,560
It’s very cool.
And Christian Hansen starts
363
00:21:54,560 –> 00:21:59,160
explaining or starts exchanging
correspondence with Michael, who
364
00:21:59,160 –> 00:22:03,680
is in prison at this point.
It’s 2014, and Michael tells him
365
00:22:03,680 –> 00:22:07,240
that the Promise scandal starts
with Reagan stealing the 1980
366
00:22:07,240 –> 00:22:09,880
election.
And I was like, I’m listening,
367
00:22:10,840 –> 00:22:13,840
yes.
Look, I’m always ready to blame
368
00:22:13,840 –> 00:22:15,480
Reagan.
Absolutely.
369
00:22:15,520 –> 00:22:18,960
And what they’re talking about
as far as Reagan stealing the
370
00:22:18,960 –> 00:22:21,480
election is the October
Surprise, right?
371
00:22:21,720 –> 00:22:26,640
Which would be a good episode of
this podcast at some, because
372
00:22:26,720 –> 00:22:31,320
for people who are unfamiliar,
the October Surprise is
373
00:22:31,320 –> 00:22:36,120
basically an allegation that the
Reagan administration, through
374
00:22:36,120 –> 00:22:40,960
the CIA, reached out to the
government of Iran and was like,
375
00:22:40,960 –> 00:22:44,320
hey, those hostages that you
got, just keep them until the
376
00:22:44,320 –> 00:22:47,360
election’s over.
Yeah, technically not the
377
00:22:47,400 –> 00:22:51,040
administration, but the pre
administration campaign like the
378
00:22:51,040 –> 00:22:53,960
Reagan campaign with the help of
the CIA.
379
00:22:54,240 –> 00:23:01,160
And there is a claim that $40
million was exchanged and
380
00:23:01,240 –> 00:23:05,800
reminder Reagan’s running mate,
former CIA director George HW
381
00:23:05,800 –> 00:23:06,720
Bush.
Yep.
382
00:23:07,120 –> 00:23:11,680
And what they claim in this
documentary is that Earl Brian
383
00:23:11,760 –> 00:23:16,200
is the person who made that deal
happen, and that his payment for
384
00:23:16,200 –> 00:23:21,440
making that deal happen was the
source code to the Promise
385
00:23:21,560 –> 00:23:25,520
software.
So that’s how Danny Casalaro
386
00:23:25,520 –> 00:23:29,600
gets on to oh, this is way, way
bigger than just the DOJ
387
00:23:29,600 –> 00:23:32,840
stealing.
Or no, that’s how Fucking Curtis
388
00:23:32,840 –> 00:23:36,120
Hanson.
Christian Hanson.
389
00:23:36,520 –> 00:23:41,040
Christian Hansen My God.
Yeah, I really didn’t need him
390
00:23:41,040 –> 00:23:43,040
in this.
No, he really didn’t.
391
00:23:43,360 –> 00:23:45,760
But I think the October Surprise
happened.
392
00:23:46,120 –> 00:23:49,200
I don’t.
I feel like that point in
393
00:23:49,200 –> 00:23:54,560
history, the CIA was willing to
do anything to ultimately get
394
00:23:54,560 –> 00:23:58,480
George HW Bush into office.
Sure.
395
00:23:58,480 –> 00:24:01,720
Because again, I’ve done a whole
episode about it.
396
00:24:01,920 –> 00:24:03,880
I’ve mentioned it a bunch of
times.
397
00:24:04,000 –> 00:24:08,840
My own little pet unprovable
theory is that the CIA is the
398
00:24:09,000 –> 00:24:14,080
obvious lead suspect when it
comes to who really was behind
399
00:24:14,440 –> 00:24:18,600
trying to kill Reagan.
That was the most MK ultra
400
00:24:18,760 –> 00:24:23,280
fucking assassination attempt
possible.
401
00:24:23,320 –> 00:24:26,120
And now that guy’s out like
playing acoustic guitar at
402
00:24:26,120 –> 00:24:29,920
coffee shops.
Like when do they let a fucking
403
00:24:29,920 –> 00:24:32,280
assassin out of prison?
Never.
404
00:24:32,440 –> 00:24:35,360
But he’s out.
So the government, it seems
405
00:24:35,360 –> 00:24:39,160
like, had pretty big plans for
this software, but I feel like
406
00:24:39,160 –> 00:24:42,440
they don’t ever really explain
what Earl Brian would have
407
00:24:42,440 –> 00:24:47,400
wanted promise for.
No, I I never really understood
408
00:24:47,400 –> 00:24:50,040
that part.
But the way they explain what
409
00:24:50,040 –> 00:24:52,240
the government wanted it for is
fascinating.
410
00:24:52,360 –> 00:24:55,560
Yeah, because eventually it
seems like the government
411
00:24:55,560 –> 00:24:58,280
realized, Oh well, we can use
this for spying.
412
00:24:58,440 –> 00:25:01,880
Like use this to make
connections between more than
413
00:25:01,880 –> 00:25:06,160
just Criminal Court cases.
And what they did is not only
414
00:25:06,160 –> 00:25:10,440
did they use it for spying, but
it seems like they put it out on
415
00:25:10,440 –> 00:25:14,720
the black market knowing that
other countries would be like,
416
00:25:14,800 –> 00:25:18,000
oh shit, that’s United States
software, that’s what they’re
417
00:25:18,000 –> 00:25:20,240
using.
Of course, we will buy that from
418
00:25:20,240 –> 00:25:23,240
you and use it for our own
nefarious means.
419
00:25:23,640 –> 00:25:25,800
Sure.
Well, and also just it’s a
420
00:25:25,800 –> 00:25:31,200
database tool at a time when
databases were just emerging as
421
00:25:31,600 –> 00:25:36,440
a major force in in information
technology just outside of
422
00:25:36,600 –> 00:25:40,680
espionage, just in general.
They talk about how disorganized
423
00:25:40,680 –> 00:25:45,360
these prosecutors offices were
before this program came around
424
00:25:45,360 –> 00:25:50,280
and how this was like one of the
first big useful pieces of
425
00:25:50,280 –> 00:25:53,400
software.
So people wanted it anyway and
426
00:25:53,400 –> 00:25:57,560
then and you can see how so the
the US government would be like,
427
00:25:57,560 –> 00:26:02,080
well, it would be nice for us to
have access to what all of these
428
00:26:02,080 –> 00:26:05,760
other people are searching for
and using this database.
429
00:26:06,040 –> 00:26:08,840
That does make sense.
And that’s what Michael
430
00:26:08,840 –> 00:26:14,600
Reconocuto claims the government
had him do, was put a trapdoor
431
00:26:14,720 –> 00:26:20,040
into the promise software that
would allow the US government to
432
00:26:20,040 –> 00:26:24,920
access anyone else using this
software and see what they’re
433
00:26:24,920 –> 00:26:28,280
using it for.
So basically, spy on what
434
00:26:28,280 –> 00:26:34,760
they’re spying on.
And there’s an IDF guy who they
435
00:26:34,760 –> 00:26:39,760
interview briefly who says this
was a revolution in intelligence
436
00:26:39,760 –> 00:26:42,000
gathering.
And if those motherfuckers are
437
00:26:42,000 –> 00:26:46,560
saying it’s a revolution, you
know it was.
438
00:26:46,960 –> 00:26:50,440
Right, seriously.
And he says what attracted
439
00:26:50,440 –> 00:26:54,880
Israel to it was the idea that
the US was gonna sell it to
440
00:26:55,000 –> 00:26:59,960
Israel’s neighbors and then give
Israel that trapdoor access so
441
00:26:59,960 –> 00:27:03,200
they could spy on their
neighbors, which I have no doubt
442
00:27:03,200 –> 00:27:04,920
that that happened.
Probably.
443
00:27:05,080 –> 00:27:08,920
But we also used it to spy on
our allies.
444
00:27:09,400 –> 00:27:11,640
And here’s the thing, that’s a
scandal.
445
00:27:11,920 –> 00:27:14,080
But it’s not a scandal I care
about.
446
00:27:14,160 –> 00:27:17,360
I expect that we’re spying on
our allies.
447
00:27:17,360 –> 00:27:21,560
I get, like, remember that came
out when Obama was in office,
448
00:27:21,600 –> 00:27:25,640
that we were, like, spying on
Germany for some reason, right?
449
00:27:25,960 –> 00:27:30,280
People were so up arms about it.
And I remember just thinking, So
450
00:27:30,280 –> 00:27:32,840
what?
Yeah, it’s a bad look, but yeah,
451
00:27:33,440 –> 00:27:36,320
that it happens a lot.
Yeah, it’s bad.
452
00:27:36,760 –> 00:27:41,680
Like it’s not good and but also
I don’t know what else people
453
00:27:41,680 –> 00:27:44,120
would expect.
Yeah, this is another point
454
00:27:44,200 –> 00:27:48,240
where in the notes I mentioned
this being way too long because
455
00:27:48,240 –> 00:27:51,360
they start getting into all
these comparisons between
456
00:27:51,480 –> 00:27:55,880
Christian and Danny.
And it’s like, look, one of them
457
00:27:55,880 –> 00:27:58,400
died with his arms cut up in a
bathtub.
458
00:27:58,640 –> 00:28:01,200
Yeah.
And the other just ends a phone
459
00:28:01,200 –> 00:28:03,240
call at the end of this and it’s
like, I’m done.
460
00:28:03,320 –> 00:28:06,880
Yeah, there aren’t a lot of
similarities between these two.
461
00:28:07,040 –> 00:28:10,880
Well, I was gonna say, I mean,
at least at this point I didn’t
462
00:28:10,880 –> 00:28:16,400
know where this all was going.
So I thought that I kind of kept
463
00:28:16,400 –> 00:28:21,160
getting the vibe that this
Christian guy was going to die.
464
00:28:21,280 –> 00:28:24,800
Saying I I honestly kept
expecting that to happen.
465
00:28:25,200 –> 00:28:29,640
Yeah, I was at least waiting for
a noticeable descent into
466
00:28:29,640 –> 00:28:32,560
madness.
Yeah, Descent into the madness.
467
00:28:32,560 –> 00:28:35,880
But honestly, in order to make
him an important part of the
468
00:28:35,880 –> 00:28:40,520
story, he had to die.
And because he doesn’t, that
469
00:28:40,520 –> 00:28:44,120
makes him inessential.
And it once again kind of
470
00:28:44,120 –> 00:28:47,160
undermines the Danny Casalaro
story.
471
00:28:47,440 –> 00:28:50,120
Because now.
So people who are skeptical
472
00:28:50,120 –> 00:28:53,440
about whether Danny Casalaro was
murdered are just going to be
473
00:28:53,440 –> 00:28:55,640
like, well, why wasn’t Christian
Hansen murdered?
474
00:28:55,920 –> 00:28:58,400
Sure, absolutely.
Which is a good question.
475
00:28:58,600 –> 00:29:01,120
It’s a valid question,
unfortunately.
476
00:29:01,520 –> 00:29:05,440
Unfortunately, yeah.
I did find all of the stuff
477
00:29:05,560 –> 00:29:10,400
about the Kaaba Zone Indian
Reservation fucking fascinating.
478
00:29:10,680 –> 00:29:15,280
Sure.
And John Phillip Nichols is a
479
00:29:15,280 –> 00:29:18,080
really interesting character.
Yeah.
480
00:29:18,560 –> 00:29:22,800
I want to know a lot more about
even separate from this.
481
00:29:22,920 –> 00:29:26,160
Yeah, there’s a lot of
interesting stuff in this part,
482
00:29:26,160 –> 00:29:29,160
but it’s interesting in a way
that makes me think, well, this
483
00:29:29,160 –> 00:29:32,560
should just be a different
documentary about the story.
484
00:29:33,280 –> 00:29:37,600
Yeah, focusing it on whether
Danny was murdered.
485
00:29:37,720 –> 00:29:42,000
They keep saying there’s these
various crimes that are just one
486
00:29:42,000 –> 00:29:45,320
tentacle of the optic murders.
So is Danny.
487
00:29:45,960 –> 00:29:49,800
He is an interesting part of
this story, but not the most
488
00:29:49,800 –> 00:29:51,840
interesting part.
No.
489
00:29:52,000 –> 00:29:56,080
I need to know more about what
was happening at this Indian
490
00:29:56,200 –> 00:29:58,840
Reservation.
Yeah, because this John Philip
491
00:29:58,840 –> 00:30:05,120
Nichols guy, he gives me a lot
of Jim Jones vibes, especially
492
00:30:05,200 –> 00:30:07,520
hearing his son talk about him.
Uh huh.
493
00:30:08,680 –> 00:30:11,720
And his son’s like, look, my dad
was a hero, you know?
494
00:30:11,720 –> 00:30:14,880
Yeah, maybe he did some shady
stuff, but he did it in the name
495
00:30:14,880 –> 00:30:16,720
of the government.
Hear that a couple times from
496
00:30:16,720 –> 00:30:19,840
kids of obvious monsters in
this.
497
00:30:20,680 –> 00:30:26,200
And they talk about him going
around and helping with all of
498
00:30:26,200 –> 00:30:30,080
these like labour movements and
people who are out in the
499
00:30:30,080 –> 00:30:35,120
community organizing.
And you can tell his son kind of
500
00:30:35,120 –> 00:30:37,520
believes that that’s what his
dad was doing.
501
00:30:37,640 –> 00:30:40,040
But also, it’s pretty clear his
dad wasn’t helping.
502
00:30:40,040 –> 00:30:42,080
He was infiltrating.
Sure.
503
00:30:42,320 –> 00:30:47,360
He was going into these groups
as a representative of the US
504
00:30:47,440 –> 00:30:51,880
government, clearly, and a lot
of it had to do.
505
00:30:51,960 –> 00:30:56,400
A lot of the groups he would
interact with were groups that
506
00:30:56,400 –> 00:31:01,120
were dealing with, like tribal
sovereignty and like the plight
507
00:31:01,160 –> 00:31:03,640
of Native Americans in this
country.
508
00:31:03,640 –> 00:31:08,240
And it seems like it was all
because he was trying to scope
509
00:31:08,240 –> 00:31:11,760
out the right reservation that
the government could turn into a
510
00:31:12,160 –> 00:31:15,880
weapons testing plan, right?
Like, it seems like there was an
511
00:31:15,880 –> 00:31:19,280
idea within the CIA at some
point where they were like, all
512
00:31:19,280 –> 00:31:23,760
right, so we can’t test all this
stuff in the United States
513
00:31:23,760 –> 00:31:27,720
technically, right?
What if we do it on Indian
514
00:31:27,720 –> 00:31:32,120
reservations that are not under
the jurisdiction of the federal
515
00:31:32,120 –> 00:31:34,800
government, Right.
And what then?
516
00:31:34,840 –> 00:31:37,800
Can we get away with it there?
And it seems like at least the
517
00:31:37,800 –> 00:31:41,240
cabozone they tried.
Yeah, because they, for one,
518
00:31:41,240 –> 00:31:45,280
they bring the Promise software
to this reservation, which is in
519
00:31:45,280 –> 00:31:49,120
California.
But they also just start testing
520
00:31:49,280 –> 00:31:53,480
weapons there, chemical weapons.
At one point they were even
521
00:31:53,480 –> 00:31:58,120
talking about testing there.
And this is all the work of a
522
00:31:58,120 –> 00:32:01,840
guy who again, to hear his son
describe it was like a
523
00:32:01,840 –> 00:32:06,720
progressive who was working on
all these like union issues and
524
00:32:06,720 –> 00:32:10,080
native land issues.
And meanwhile, he just wants a
525
00:32:10,080 –> 00:32:14,360
place that he can shoot
experimental weapons Congress
526
00:32:14,360 –> 00:32:16,000
saying anything about.
It right.
527
00:32:16,040 –> 00:32:17,800
Yeah.
Which again, that’s Jim Jones
528
00:32:17,800 –> 00:32:18,880
vibes.
Like.
529
00:32:19,600 –> 00:32:23,600
Whole lot they they talked to a
detective in this, John Powers
530
00:32:23,600 –> 00:32:27,600
who was in the area of the
Cabazon Reservation.
531
00:32:27,720 –> 00:32:29,880
There was a triple murder at one
point.
532
00:32:30,200 –> 00:32:32,920
And he was like, I arrested
someone for it.
533
00:32:32,920 –> 00:32:36,240
They were charged and the
government let him go nine
534
00:32:36,240 –> 00:32:39,040
months later.
Yeah, Which again, that’s always
535
00:32:39,040 –> 00:32:41,320
weird.
Does it feel like John Nichols
536
00:32:41,320 –> 00:32:44,200
is the reason there are
cigarette stores and casinos on
537
00:32:44,360 –> 00:32:47,680
Indian reservations now?
That was what I understood from
538
00:32:47,680 –> 00:32:52,400
that whole aspect of the story.
And man, that does feel like a
539
00:32:52,400 –> 00:32:56,360
CIA thing.
Like, yeah, like, all right,
540
00:32:56,360 –> 00:32:58,200
Native people have all this
land.
541
00:32:58,200 –> 00:33:01,000
How can we make sure it ruins
their lives?
542
00:33:01,320 –> 00:33:04,280
Cigarettes and gambling, yeah.
It’s getting them hooked on
543
00:33:04,280 –> 00:33:07,240
VICE.
Because yeah, that this guy was
544
00:33:07,240 –> 00:33:12,640
clearly acia agent and is also
the person who shows up and is
545
00:33:12,640 –> 00:33:15,040
like, hey, what if you open a
casino?
546
00:33:15,240 –> 00:33:19,680
What if you start selling
cigarettes and he talks this
547
00:33:19,680 –> 00:33:23,640
tribe into this and then
promises them all this money and
548
00:33:23,640 –> 00:33:27,040
then the money never shows up.
And a guy who is the head of
549
00:33:27,040 –> 00:33:30,920
security and part of the tribal
council, Fred Alvarez, he starts
550
00:33:30,920 –> 00:33:35,120
complaining about it and he
steals a bunch of files from
551
00:33:35,120 –> 00:33:37,600
Nichols office.
One of the things he finds out
552
00:33:37,600 –> 00:33:41,520
is that Nichols is working with
Wackenhut, which is a security
553
00:33:41,520 –> 00:33:44,800
company that’s essentially an
offshoot of the CIA, and that
554
00:33:44,800 –> 00:33:49,040
they wanted to use this land to
test tank rounds and chemical
555
00:33:49,040 –> 00:33:52,440
weapons.
And he compiles all this
556
00:33:52,440 –> 00:33:56,240
evidence and schedules an
appointment to show it to an
557
00:33:56,240 –> 00:33:59,360
attorney.
And of course, the people who
558
00:33:59,360 –> 00:34:02,600
are supposed to take him to that
meeting, show up at his home and
559
00:34:02,600 –> 00:34:07,160
find him dead in the backyard
belongs two of his friends.
560
00:34:07,240 –> 00:34:11,639
So John Nichols obviously either
killed that guy or had that guy
561
00:34:11,639 –> 00:34:14,480
killed.
Yeah, he’s like the most obvious
562
00:34:14,480 –> 00:34:18,159
suspect.
Yeah, all you Occam’s Razor fans
563
00:34:18,239 –> 00:34:21,440
out there, this is your moment
to shine.
564
00:34:21,600 –> 00:34:25,960
Because yeah, that is, the most
obvious answer is that John
565
00:34:25,960 –> 00:34:29,840
Nichols either committed the
murder himself or at the very
566
00:34:29,840 –> 00:34:32,280
least had this murder.
Commission.
567
00:34:32,480 –> 00:34:35,920
Doesn’t John Nichols son even
say something like, yeah, you
568
00:34:35,920 –> 00:34:39,000
might have killed some people?
Yeah.
569
00:34:39,000 –> 00:34:41,840
When they ask if his dad killed
someone, he’s like, I hope not.
570
00:34:42,120 –> 00:34:45,920
I hope not.
OK, if it if the answer was no,
571
00:34:45,920 –> 00:34:52,280
you would just say no, right?
And I don’t know, fuck this kid.
572
00:34:52,320 –> 00:34:54,800
Kinda a kid.
He’s like, older than me, yeah.
573
00:34:54,920 –> 00:34:57,440
He’s, I was gonna say he’s 60
years old.
574
00:34:58,080 –> 00:35:00,640
But still, I get that he’s your
dad.
575
00:35:00,760 –> 00:35:04,160
But man, this is government
malfeasance of the highest
576
00:35:04,160 –> 00:35:06,440
order.
Quit being like my dad was a
577
00:35:06,440 –> 00:35:08,480
hero.
Nah, your dad was a fucking
578
00:35:08,480 –> 00:35:11,520
villain.
Your dad was a bad actor on the
579
00:35:11,520 –> 00:35:15,280
world stage.
I think he was your pee paw and
580
00:35:15,280 –> 00:35:18,960
all, but it doesn’t matter.
He’s a bad fucking person.
581
00:35:19,000 –> 00:35:21,440
And I don’t know.
There’s a lot of kids of
582
00:35:21,440 –> 00:35:25,000
military and cops both who need
to fucking come to terms with
583
00:35:25,000 –> 00:35:27,120
that, Including this guy.
Absolutely.
584
00:35:27,520 –> 00:35:31,800
So with Fred Alvarez out of the
way, John Nichols moves a bunch
585
00:35:31,800 –> 00:35:36,160
of creeps onto this reservation.
And these people are referred to
586
00:35:36,160 –> 00:35:40,560
as the angels of life and death,
and they’re just like a group of
587
00:35:40,560 –> 00:35:46,000
CIA types who show up and turn
it into a weapons testing spot.
588
00:35:46,920 –> 00:35:50,360
And one of the connections they
make is that the reason they had
589
00:35:50,360 –> 00:35:54,640
to do this on a reservation is
because these weapons they were
590
00:35:54,640 –> 00:35:58,040
testing were part of the Iran
Contra scandal.
591
00:35:58,040 –> 00:36:02,000
And so they didn’t need any
looky loos around asking
592
00:36:02,000 –> 00:36:06,080
questions about what these
weapons were, right?
593
00:36:06,480 –> 00:36:10,240
That is such an underrated
scandal from history.
594
00:36:10,840 –> 00:36:13,000
Why is it?
Is it underrated?
595
00:36:13,360 –> 00:36:16,960
I think people know it.
People know it, but no one.
596
00:36:17,080 –> 00:36:20,360
It doesn’t get mentioned the way
like Watergate gets mentioned
597
00:36:20,360 –> 00:36:24,000
and it was like 100 times worse
than Watergate.
598
00:36:24,000 –> 00:36:28,120
I think part of it is just this
thing where even a lot of
599
00:36:28,240 –> 00:36:32,320
liberal Americans just like to
treat Reagan with kid gloves.
600
00:36:32,440 –> 00:36:35,760
They like to pretend like he’s
just a goofy old guy who never
601
00:36:35,760 –> 00:36:40,120
did knowingly did anything wrong
instead of one of the most evil
602
00:36:40,120 –> 00:36:43,400
motherfuckers who has ever
served in the high office.
603
00:36:43,840 –> 00:36:48,120
Yeah, he really just kind of did
the CIA’s bidding.
604
00:36:48,440 –> 00:36:52,920
Yeah, when he was in, like
everything that the CIA wanted
605
00:36:52,920 –> 00:36:58,280
to do got done under Reagan,
including like fucking carrying
606
00:36:58,280 –> 00:37:01,440
out wars without letting the
media see.
607
00:37:01,440 –> 00:37:03,800
That’s what happened in Grenada.
That’s what happened in Panama.
608
00:37:03,880 –> 00:37:06,640
There’s a reason there’s no
pictures from the invasion of
609
00:37:06,640 –> 00:37:08,320
Panama.
It’s because we didn’t let
610
00:37:08,320 –> 00:37:11,480
people take pictures.
And there are military people
611
00:37:11,480 –> 00:37:14,560
who were interviewed and you and
were like, you know why that war
612
00:37:14,560 –> 00:37:17,240
went as fast as it did?
It’s because the media wasn’t
613
00:37:17,240 –> 00:37:20,200
allowed.
It’s like, that is the most
614
00:37:20,200 –> 00:37:22,160
terrifying thing I’ve ever
heard.
615
00:37:22,680 –> 00:37:25,400
Like, what were you doing
without the media there?
616
00:37:25,520 –> 00:37:28,240
That within the span of a couple
days, an entire country was
617
00:37:28,240 –> 00:37:34,920
like, Jesus, all right, like,
what was going on?
618
00:37:35,160 –> 00:37:39,840
Yeah, I know.
So we do get to talk to Michael
619
00:37:40,320 –> 00:37:43,800
Rakonishuto in this, and it
seems like they’re going to go
620
00:37:43,800 –> 00:37:46,240
interview him in prison, but
he’s actually getting released
621
00:37:46,240 –> 00:37:49,080
from prison.
Yeah, they like pick him up from
622
00:37:49,080 –> 00:37:51,120
prison.
Yeah, first I was like, are they
623
00:37:51,360 –> 00:37:53,200
helping him escape?
This is amazing.
624
00:37:54,680 –> 00:37:57,320
He’s super paranoid.
He’s like drive, get away from
625
00:37:57,400 –> 00:38:00,040
here, get away from this area.
I don’t want to be in this area.
626
00:38:00,360 –> 00:38:03,280
And he does seem legitimately
scared.
627
00:38:03,280 –> 00:38:04,240
I.
Mean.
628
00:38:04,240 –> 00:38:06,560
Sure, he seems legitimately
scared.
629
00:38:06,720 –> 00:38:13,520
Whether what he is scared of is,
you know, real is a different
630
00:38:14,000 –> 00:38:17,360
matter, I think.
Yeah, the thing that lends it a
631
00:38:17,360 –> 00:38:22,720
little credibility to me is he’s
got now he’s all he’s got to do
632
00:38:22,840 –> 00:38:25,320
is go to this parole hearing.
Right.
633
00:38:26,000 –> 00:38:28,880
And he’s like, I won’t have any
protection at that parole
634
00:38:28,880 –> 00:38:30,920
hearing.
The people who are after me will
635
00:38:30,920 –> 00:38:33,520
be at that parole hearing.
I would rather just go back to
636
00:38:33,520 –> 00:38:37,840
prison and he just goes back to
prison, which to me that speaks
637
00:38:37,840 –> 00:38:41,160
to someone being legitimately
afraid.
638
00:38:41,480 –> 00:38:43,560
Sure.
Of something.
639
00:38:43,640 –> 00:38:47,040
But even then, the question is,
did he have a reason to be that
640
00:38:47,040 –> 00:38:48,160
afraid?
Right.
641
00:38:48,160 –> 00:38:53,640
I mean, regardless of how much
real information and involvement
642
00:38:53,640 –> 00:38:58,320
he has in this whole overarching
story, he does seem to be in
643
00:38:58,320 –> 00:39:02,360
some capacity.
Unwell, that was just the vibe
644
00:39:02,360 –> 00:39:05,520
that I got from him.
And then from later on, hearing
645
00:39:05,520 –> 00:39:08,280
other people talk about him, it
just seemed like this guy has a
646
00:39:08,320 –> 00:39:12,440
lot going on inside.
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean that
647
00:39:12,440 –> 00:39:16,640
he wasn’t in legitimate danger.
It just, you know, it’s
648
00:39:16,640 –> 00:39:18,360
something to keep in mind.
Yeah.
649
00:39:18,480 –> 00:39:22,800
And one of the things he brings
up is that all these people
650
00:39:22,880 –> 00:39:26,160
who’ve been involved in this
story have been murdered.
651
00:39:26,200 –> 00:39:28,200
Yeah.
And that brings us to the murder
652
00:39:28,200 –> 00:39:33,120
of Paul Marasca, which it’s a
weird one.
653
00:39:33,400 –> 00:39:35,480
He was Michael’s business
partner.
654
00:39:35,560 –> 00:39:42,080
His murder was heinous.
He was hog tied with a wire, and
655
00:39:42,240 –> 00:39:47,160
basically, once he couldn’t hold
his legs up anymore, the wire
656
00:39:47,360 –> 00:39:51,360
strangled him.
Right, And the suspicion is that
657
00:39:51,480 –> 00:39:56,480
he was killed by an FBI
informant named Jason Smith, AKA
658
00:39:56,480 –> 00:39:59,360
Phillip Thompson.
Yeah, and it seems like he
659
00:39:59,360 –> 00:40:01,160
probably was.
Sure.
660
00:40:01,600 –> 00:40:03,640
He was definitely murdered by
someone.
661
00:40:03,760 –> 00:40:08,440
And now wait, hold on.
In Danny Casalaro’s notes, he
662
00:40:08,440 –> 00:40:13,200
says that Paul Marasca is the
link, but he doesn’t say the
663
00:40:13,200 –> 00:40:18,320
link between what right?
And so that sends Christian
664
00:40:18,320 –> 00:40:22,560
Hansen off trying to find what
that link is.
665
00:40:22,680 –> 00:40:27,920
And what he lands on is that
Paul Morasca was the link
666
00:40:28,120 –> 00:40:33,840
between the federal government
and or the CIA and like the
667
00:40:33,840 –> 00:40:39,280
criminal, like organized crime
and the idea that American
668
00:40:39,280 –> 00:40:45,920
intelligence was funding covert
operations using money that they
669
00:40:45,920 –> 00:40:49,760
were earning through selling
drugs in the United States.
670
00:40:50,520 –> 00:40:54,600
And yeah, I think like we know
that right now like that.
671
00:40:54,600 –> 00:40:57,800
I mean that that’s kind of the
Gary Webb story also.
672
00:40:58,840 –> 00:41:02,080
And I don’t doubt like all
they’re really implying here is
673
00:41:02,080 –> 00:41:06,760
that it was bigger than what
Gary Webb even realized.
674
00:41:06,960 –> 00:41:10,000
And of course it was.
I don’t think it obviously
675
00:41:10,000 –> 00:41:14,160
wasn’t an isolated incident
because crack didn’t just show
676
00:41:14,160 –> 00:41:18,640
up in Los Angeles.
It showed up all over the place.
677
00:41:18,640 –> 00:41:22,520
There’s a documentary called
White Boy Rick about a teen who
678
00:41:22,520 –> 00:41:26,800
was selling crack in Detroit.
And the FBI was like giving him
679
00:41:26,800 –> 00:41:30,280
crack and just giving him the
green light to sell it in the
680
00:41:30,280 –> 00:41:33,200
community right up until the
point where they didn’t anymore
681
00:41:33,200 –> 00:41:37,760
and they arrested him Like, I’m.
I don’t doubt for a second that
682
00:41:37,760 –> 00:41:42,840
that part of this story is true.
I absolutely believe the CIA,
683
00:41:42,920 –> 00:41:48,200
I’m sure still, but definitely
at the time was using drug money
684
00:41:48,200 –> 00:41:51,680
to fund shit we were doing in
Latin America.
685
00:41:51,760 –> 00:41:55,680
When Paul died, he had all this
money in an offshore account and
686
00:41:55,680 –> 00:41:58,280
he had all these chemicals for
making drugs that all
687
00:41:58,280 –> 00:42:02,160
disappeared.
And what they suggest is that
688
00:42:02,200 –> 00:42:05,880
the way he was killed, what
probably happened is they hog
689
00:42:05,880 –> 00:42:08,400
tied him, he’s being strangled
by this wire.
690
00:42:08,400 –> 00:42:11,120
And they’re like, tell us where
the money is, tell us where the
691
00:42:11,120 –> 00:42:13,720
chemicals are and we’ll cut you
loose.
692
00:42:13,840 –> 00:42:18,800
And so they basically tortured
him, this information, and then
693
00:42:18,880 –> 00:42:22,480
just let him die anyway.
And I don’t know, I buy it.
694
00:42:22,680 –> 00:42:25,800
Sure.
I buy this part of the story.
695
00:42:25,800 –> 00:42:28,920
It does seem like that Philip
guy was.
696
00:42:29,080 –> 00:42:32,240
It seems like he was just like a
guy the government used to kill
697
00:42:32,240 –> 00:42:34,120
people.
Yeah, potentially.
698
00:42:34,120 –> 00:42:36,040
Definitely.
Philip Thompson.
699
00:42:36,120 –> 00:42:39,320
But I’m reading a book.
Have you read any James Elroy?
700
00:42:40,280 –> 00:42:43,600
I’m reading his book American
Tabloid, which is basically
701
00:42:43,600 –> 00:42:48,920
about guys like that in the 50s,
Like people who you know would
702
00:42:48,920 –> 00:42:51,880
be like informants who would,
you know, just kill people when
703
00:42:51,880 –> 00:42:53,880
needed to be killed.
Interesting.
704
00:42:54,240 –> 00:42:56,400
Yeah.
I mean, that’s gotta be, you
705
00:42:56,400 –> 00:42:58,600
know, that’s a thing.
Yeah, that’s a thing.
706
00:42:58,600 –> 00:43:02,560
You hear about the CIA all the
time is that there’s two kinds
707
00:43:02,560 –> 00:43:05,640
of CIA agents.
There’s like the analyst types,
708
00:43:05,640 –> 00:43:08,600
the you know, the deaf types.
Yeah, you’re Jack Ryan’s.
709
00:43:08,720 –> 00:43:11,040
Right.
And when they can’t fix shit,
710
00:43:11,200 –> 00:43:14,320
there’s the murder types.
And those two don’t work
711
00:43:14,320 –> 00:43:18,640
together.
They just work toward the same
712
00:43:18,640 –> 00:43:19,920
ends.
Right.
713
00:43:20,680 –> 00:43:22,320
What do you think of Robert
Booth Nichols?
714
00:43:22,480 –> 00:43:25,600
That guy was neat.
He’s the scariest person in
715
00:43:25,600 –> 00:43:27,880
this.
Yeah, he is another.
716
00:43:27,880 –> 00:43:32,360
He’s not related to the other
Nichols, but he’s he’s another
717
00:43:32,360 –> 00:43:35,800
figure in this and he’s the one
that people are like don’t even
718
00:43:35,800 –> 00:43:39,080
talk to that guy.
Like it will not go well.
719
00:43:39,160 –> 00:43:43,840
And even as an old ass man in
this deposition they show him
720
00:43:43,840 –> 00:43:50,600
giving, he seems scary as fuck.
Like he really does have the air
721
00:43:50,680 –> 00:43:53,280
of someone who’s like, you have
no idea.
722
00:43:53,280 –> 00:43:57,880
I will murder you in the parking
lot when and get away with it.
723
00:43:58,200 –> 00:44:02,640
Like, he’s your classic what?
He’s what I picture when I think
724
00:44:02,640 –> 00:44:08,240
of a government hitman who’s
just like a guy in a suit who’s
725
00:44:08,240 –> 00:44:12,440
like very normal and but just
dead behind the eyes.
726
00:44:13,200 –> 00:44:16,560
Yeah.
At one point they asked him what
727
00:44:16,560 –> 00:44:19,600
he did for the government and he
says achieve objectives.
728
00:44:19,600 –> 00:44:26,760
It’s like, all right.
And he also makes it very clear
729
00:44:26,760 –> 00:44:30,720
that he was told he would never
be in the situation he was in.
730
00:44:31,080 –> 00:44:35,400
In that moment he was.
I did what I was told and I was
731
00:44:35,400 –> 00:44:38,960
told I would never be where I am
right now.
732
00:44:39,960 –> 00:44:43,200
And the guy doing the deposition
is like, who told you that?
733
00:44:43,240 –> 00:44:47,280
And he goes the government and
he shoots someone in the room a
734
00:44:47,280 –> 00:44:50,320
fucking look.
And it’s like, oh, this is the
735
00:44:50,320 –> 00:44:52,440
best.
It’s, it’s the best.
736
00:44:52,560 –> 00:44:57,520
And Danny Casallaro does end up
reaching out to Bob Nichols,
737
00:44:57,520 –> 00:44:58,960
even though people tell him not
to.
738
00:44:59,720 –> 00:45:04,320
And in his notes, he claims Bob
Nichols at the end of telling
739
00:45:04,320 –> 00:45:08,400
Danny a lot of stuff about
promise and everything that was
740
00:45:08,400 –> 00:45:12,040
happening at the end, he’s like,
it’s too bad you’re a writer
741
00:45:12,080 –> 00:45:15,320
because you know too much now
and you’ll have to die.
742
00:45:16,480 –> 00:45:19,400
And Danny’s just like, all
right, thanks for your time.
743
00:45:21,160 –> 00:45:24,080
Take off, I guess.
What would you do do with that?
744
00:45:24,080 –> 00:45:25,480
Like I might.
I don’t know.
745
00:45:25,480 –> 00:45:28,400
I think you kind of have to kill
Bob in that moment.
746
00:45:28,560 –> 00:45:31,840
Wow, that feels like a threat
that you just like.
747
00:45:31,880 –> 00:45:34,200
All right, Bob, you’re old.
Let’s fucking do this.
748
00:45:34,400 –> 00:45:36,760
But what would?
What would that even do?
749
00:45:36,880 –> 00:45:38,880
There would just be another guy
then.
750
00:45:38,960 –> 00:45:41,240
Well, I mean, Bob’s going to
have to tell someone that you
751
00:45:41,240 –> 00:45:42,840
talked.
Right.
752
00:45:43,000 –> 00:45:47,160
But surely if this is so wide
reaching, people already know
753
00:45:47,160 –> 00:45:49,560
that they’re talking, You know,
I don’t know.
754
00:45:50,120 –> 00:45:53,120
I don’t know that killing Bob
fixes anything in that moment.
755
00:45:54,880 –> 00:45:57,760
Especially if there’s a stuffed
lion in the room.
756
00:45:58,040 –> 00:46:00,200
Right.
Oh God yeah, the stuffed lion.
757
00:46:00,320 –> 00:46:03,360
We found out that was Bob
Nichols way of recording
758
00:46:03,360 –> 00:46:06,280
conversations that happened at
his home because that
759
00:46:06,280 –> 00:46:11,040
investigative reporter, Sherry
Seymour, yeah, she ends up
760
00:46:11,040 –> 00:46:13,000
getting an interview with Bob
Nichols.
761
00:46:13,040 –> 00:46:16,160
And beforehand someone’s like,
if there’s a stuffed lion in the
762
00:46:16,160 –> 00:46:19,320
room, he’s recording you and she
showed for this interview and
763
00:46:19,320 –> 00:46:22,760
sure enough, he sits her down on
the couch next to a stuffed lion
764
00:46:24,080 –> 00:46:26,400
plastic.
He should have used some animal
765
00:46:26,400 –> 00:46:28,080
up.
She’s like, I don’t know, it’s a
766
00:46:28,080 –> 00:46:30,520
stuffed giraffe.
So I think it was fine.
767
00:46:30,680 –> 00:46:34,960
Yeah, it’s fine.
Yeah, so basically Danny’s
768
00:46:35,000 –> 00:46:39,120
theory was that the octopus is
kind of the Illuminati.
769
00:46:39,200 –> 00:46:42,880
Sure seems like that’s what he’s
getting at, because he says the
770
00:46:42,880 –> 00:46:47,960
octopus is an alliance of seven
or eight or nine people.
771
00:46:48,040 –> 00:46:51,240
They’ll show his notes and at
various points he said 7-8 and
772
00:46:51,240 –> 00:46:54,200
nine.
They say 8 throughout all this,
773
00:46:54,200 –> 00:46:56,440
but at one point they list them
all and there’s nine.
774
00:46:56,920 –> 00:46:59,600
So I don’t know.
But he says it’s an alliance
775
00:46:59,600 –> 00:47:04,440
that started around the Cold War
1950s with a bunch of
776
00:47:04,640 –> 00:47:08,680
intelligence types, those
intelligence types being Doctor
777
00:47:08,680 –> 00:47:13,160
John Phillip Nichols, Richard
Helms, Theodore Shackley, George
778
00:47:13,160 –> 00:47:18,640
Pender, Ray Klein, William
Casey, Thomas Kleins, E Howard
779
00:47:18,640 –> 00:47:23,120
Hunt and George HW Bush Baby.
Of course.
780
00:47:23,480 –> 00:47:29,520
And those are the nine people
who make up the octopus.
781
00:47:29,560 –> 00:47:33,080
They are no longer government
employees.
782
00:47:33,080 –> 00:47:38,680
They’re not government, but they
their reach extends into all
783
00:47:38,680 –> 00:47:43,440
facets of life, all governments,
global reach.
784
00:47:43,560 –> 00:47:47,560
And he still doesn’t really say
to what end, though.
785
00:47:47,560 –> 00:47:51,840
No, this is the thing.
This is where I start to get
786
00:47:52,000 –> 00:47:58,280
lost on the idea of the octopus
as a single conspiracy.
787
00:47:58,480 –> 00:48:02,880
Where as it gets spelled out,
what it mostly just seems is
788
00:48:03,000 –> 00:48:07,880
this is standard intelligence
operating procedure.
789
00:48:07,880 –> 00:48:12,000
Not that any of this is not
nefarious or not connected or,
790
00:48:12,320 –> 00:48:16,240
you know, not bad.
But it doesn’t strike me as much
791
00:48:16,240 –> 00:48:18,680
of a hidden conspiracy as much
as it is.
792
00:48:18,680 –> 00:48:22,040
Like it’s hidden in the way that
all of these intelligence
793
00:48:22,040 –> 00:48:24,480
operations are hidden.
I don’t know.
794
00:48:24,480 –> 00:48:26,880
Like, it doesn’t strike me as
its own thing.
795
00:48:26,920 –> 00:48:29,760
Yeah.
And it, I don’t know.
796
00:48:29,760 –> 00:48:33,000
I feel like Reagan doesn’t come
up enough in this.
797
00:48:33,240 –> 00:48:36,440
Yeah.
And that to me speaks to the
798
00:48:36,440 –> 00:48:38,320
whole.
I know this was a question that
799
00:48:38,320 –> 00:48:41,440
was asked more around Watergate,
but what did the president know
800
00:48:41,440 –> 00:48:43,600
and when did he know it?
Sure.
801
00:48:44,120 –> 00:48:47,720
Was all of this just happening
behind Reagan’s back?
802
00:48:47,720 –> 00:48:50,880
Mm hmm.
Or was he actively involved in
803
00:48:50,920 –> 00:48:54,480
planning all of this?
That’s never really mentioned.
804
00:48:54,760 –> 00:48:58,400
No, not at all.
It’s treated as more of a deep
805
00:48:58,400 –> 00:49:01,160
state kind of thing.
Right.
806
00:49:01,240 –> 00:49:04,760
But which doesn’t make sense
because George Bush was in the
807
00:49:04,760 –> 00:49:07,440
Reagan administration.
That doesn’t really track.
808
00:49:07,600 –> 00:49:14,000
And one of the things I’ve at
least read about the CIA is that
809
00:49:14,000 –> 00:49:17,200
there are going to be times
where the president will have to
810
00:49:17,200 –> 00:49:21,400
be like, whoa, what the CIA did
there was very bad.
811
00:49:21,480 –> 00:49:24,880
And I had no idea.
But the president always knows,
812
00:49:25,360 –> 00:49:29,520
like the CIA does, what the
president needs done.
813
00:49:30,160 –> 00:49:33,960
And they sometimes have to
disagree publicly, but they are
814
00:49:33,960 –> 00:49:37,720
generally on the same page.
And I don’t know.
815
00:49:37,720 –> 00:49:41,800
I feel like Reagan would have to
be part of this, like, more than
816
00:49:41,800 –> 00:49:47,240
he’s made out to be.
Even if he’s not giving orders
817
00:49:47,240 –> 00:49:50,240
or whatever, there’s no way he
wasn’t in the loop with any of
818
00:49:50,240 –> 00:49:52,560
this.
Yeah, I thought the stuff about
819
00:49:52,560 –> 00:49:57,480
Michael Abell was interesting.
He was the director of the
820
00:49:57,480 –> 00:50:00,960
Office of International Affairs
in the Reagan administration.
821
00:50:01,040 –> 00:50:05,600
And at one point we were
considering extraditing the head
822
00:50:05,680 –> 00:50:09,880
of the Cali drug cartel to the
United States to be prosecuted.
823
00:50:09,960 –> 00:50:12,720
And what they claim here is that
Michael A.
824
00:50:12,720 –> 00:50:20,040
Bell was paid off by Bob Nichols
to not extradite cartel members
825
00:50:20,120 –> 00:50:24,440
and the reason that payment was
made is because the CIA was
826
00:50:24,440 –> 00:50:27,520
selling drugs in the United
States and they needed those
827
00:50:27,520 –> 00:50:30,840
drugs to come into the United
States so they held them.
828
00:50:31,600 –> 00:50:36,600
Which again, I buy it, I buy it.
And think about Ronald Reagan’s
829
00:50:36,600 –> 00:50:40,000
anti drug policy.
It was the laziest shit.
830
00:50:40,000 –> 00:50:43,240
Just say no.
It’s like that’s that’s all you
831
00:50:43,240 –> 00:50:46,240
got is just say no.
He’s like, yeah, yeah, just say
832
00:50:46,240 –> 00:50:47,840
no.
Next question.
833
00:50:47,920 –> 00:50:51,080
Next question.
What do you think about Joe
834
00:50:51,080 –> 00:50:55,080
Cuellar?
Joe Cuellar, He was the military
835
00:50:55,080 –> 00:50:57,400
guy.
He was the military intelligence
836
00:50:57,400 –> 00:51:01,320
guy.
One night Danny is out having
837
00:51:01,320 –> 00:51:05,880
drinks with a friend of his.
And just by sheer coincidence,
838
00:51:05,880 –> 00:51:09,520
of course, Joe Cuellar, a
military intelligence guy,
839
00:51:09,520 –> 00:51:13,000
happens to be at the bar and
Danny chats him up.
840
00:51:13,040 –> 00:51:17,320
And Joe Cuellar is like, Oh
yeah, I know all about what
841
00:51:17,320 –> 00:51:19,400
you’re doing.
Let me give you some more
842
00:51:19,400 –> 00:51:22,600
information and put you in touch
with more people.
843
00:51:22,600 –> 00:51:27,360
And it seems like the woman
Danny was with was like, OK, but
844
00:51:27,360 –> 00:51:30,600
your military intelligence, this
is not on the up and up.
845
00:51:30,600 –> 00:51:33,280
And Danny was like, no, he’s my
friend.
846
00:51:33,520 –> 00:51:35,200
Like, he’s right.
He’s helping me.
847
00:51:35,200 –> 00:51:38,800
He’s giving me information.
And man, if I was any in that
848
00:51:38,800 –> 00:51:42,480
moment and someone was like, hi,
I’m military intelligence, I’d
849
00:51:42,480 –> 00:51:46,600
be like check please.
I am leaving 0.
850
00:51:46,800 –> 00:51:49,120
Hey Bunny, running into you
here?
851
00:51:49,120 –> 00:51:51,440
Here’s a bunch of information
about this thing that you’re
852
00:51:51,440 –> 00:51:54,160
working on that I happen to know
about.
853
00:51:54,160 –> 00:51:56,400
We’re meeting for the first time
in this bar.
854
00:51:56,440 –> 00:51:59,160
Yeah, just Can you imagine such
a coincidence?
855
00:52:00,080 –> 00:52:03,400
I cannot imagine such a
coincidence.
856
00:52:03,600 –> 00:52:06,160
Maybe this is a failure of
imagination, you know?
857
00:52:07,120 –> 00:52:08,400
It could be.
It could be.
858
00:52:09,200 –> 00:52:12,880
And so Danny at this point is
also getting constant death
859
00:52:12,880 –> 00:52:14,800
threats.
People are calling him and being
860
00:52:14,800 –> 00:52:18,080
like, hey, back off this story.
And he was just kind of taking
861
00:52:18,080 –> 00:52:21,880
that as, Oh well, I’m obviously
on to something here.
862
00:52:21,920 –> 00:52:28,120
And he just kept going.
And in his last days, at one
863
00:52:28,120 –> 00:52:32,320
point he tells someone I I
finally figured out who knows
864
00:52:32,320 –> 00:52:34,480
where the money went.
I have one more meeting.
865
00:52:34,720 –> 00:52:36,920
I’m going to meet with them, and
then that’s going to wrap it up.
866
00:52:36,920 –> 00:52:38,960
I’m going to have all the
evidence and I can write this
867
00:52:38,960 –> 00:52:41,560
book.
Did the FBI get this guy killed?
868
00:52:42,840 –> 00:52:44,480
Maybe.
Because one thing we haven’t
869
00:52:44,480 –> 00:52:49,160
talked about is someone, I
believe Danny contacts the FBI
870
00:52:49,280 –> 00:52:53,680
about Bob Nichols.
And the FBI is like, Oh yeah,
871
00:52:53,680 –> 00:52:56,280
we’ve had our eye on that guy
for a while too.
872
00:52:56,320 –> 00:52:59,720
And they interview an FBI agent
who’s like, yeah, we essentially
873
00:52:59,760 –> 00:53:04,120
started using Danny as a source
for information about the people
874
00:53:04,120 –> 00:53:08,280
he was also looking into.
And he asked them about this
875
00:53:08,280 –> 00:53:10,640
last meeting.
And they’re like, we didn’t have
876
00:53:10,640 –> 00:53:14,840
any reason to not send him to
this last meeting.
877
00:53:14,960 –> 00:53:19,640
And meanwhile, Michael
reconnoituto is irate that they
878
00:53:19,640 –> 00:53:22,840
sent him to this meeting.
And they’re like, you are going
879
00:53:22,840 –> 00:53:26,640
to get Danny killed.
He has enough information.
880
00:53:27,080 –> 00:53:28,800
Cool it.
You’re going to get him murdered
881
00:53:29,520 –> 00:53:33,280
sure enough that FBI agents
like, I feel like maybe I got
882
00:53:33,360 –> 00:53:36,200
him killed.
I’ll be into this.
883
00:53:36,200 –> 00:53:38,200
And it’s like, yeah, you should
feel guilty.
884
00:53:38,200 –> 00:53:41,720
You should actually feel guilty
because yeah, you would hope at
885
00:53:41,720 –> 00:53:45,160
some point the FBI would step in
and be like, all right, this is
886
00:53:45,160 –> 00:53:48,400
getting to be a bit much.
We as law enforcement, should
887
00:53:48,400 –> 00:53:50,280
probably take over.
Sure.
888
00:53:50,880 –> 00:53:52,880
That did not happen.
No.
889
00:53:53,640 –> 00:53:57,680
And no one seems to know who
that last meeting was with
890
00:53:57,840 –> 00:54:00,040
there.
There are people in the area who
891
00:54:00,040 –> 00:54:03,280
saw him waiting at a Pizza Hut,
but the person he was waiting
892
00:54:03,280 –> 00:54:07,880
for never showed up right side.
Lot worse ways to go out than
893
00:54:07,880 –> 00:54:12,520
spending your last night at a
sit down Pizza Hut missed those
894
00:54:12,520 –> 00:54:16,400
in. 1991.
Yeah, a sit down Pizza Hut, that
895
00:54:16,400 –> 00:54:18,400
was special.
They would bring them to your
896
00:54:18,400 –> 00:54:22,640
table and oh, Pizza Hut right
out of the oven.
897
00:54:22,640 –> 00:54:26,400
Whole different game.
But their salad bar was out of
898
00:54:26,400 –> 00:54:28,760
order, and that’s really what
drove them over the edge.
899
00:54:29,520 –> 00:54:36,520
Yeah, but Joe Cuellar seems like
the person who either knows what
900
00:54:36,520 –> 00:54:38,640
happened, or maybe even did it.
Sure.
901
00:54:39,160 –> 00:54:41,120
Because he shows up out of the
blue.
902
00:54:41,200 –> 00:54:43,200
He’s like, I’m military
intelligence.
903
00:54:43,320 –> 00:54:47,840
It seems like he may be set up.
This meeting, this last meeting
904
00:54:47,840 –> 00:54:50,360
for Danny.
He’s got two different alibis.
905
00:54:50,360 –> 00:54:52,280
One of them turns out to not be
true.
906
00:54:52,480 –> 00:54:56,080
And then the alibi that is true
only puts him like an hour and a
907
00:54:56,080 –> 00:54:59,120
half away from where this murder
happened.
908
00:54:59,200 –> 00:55:02,040
And I think it’s Christian
Hansen who’s like, he could have
909
00:55:02,040 –> 00:55:06,160
driven an hour and a half and
done this to Washington, DC
910
00:55:06,160 –> 00:55:08,440
That’s not an alibi at all.
Right.
911
00:55:08,640 –> 00:55:13,240
Someone calls Joe Cuellar and
asks him about it, and he tells
912
00:55:13,240 –> 00:55:16,760
that woman it’s just business
and that she should stop asking
913
00:55:16,760 –> 00:55:19,960
questions.
And then there’s a witness at
914
00:55:19,960 –> 00:55:25,480
the end or near the end who was
in the hotel room next to Danny
915
00:55:25,640 –> 00:55:30,200
Casillaro.
And she swears that she saw a
916
00:55:30,200 –> 00:55:34,080
man with black hair entering
Danny’s room using a key.
917
00:55:34,080 –> 00:55:38,320
And the description she gave
kind of looks like Joe Cuellar,
918
00:55:38,520 –> 00:55:41,880
the hair most.
But if that woman’s correct,
919
00:55:42,000 –> 00:55:45,800
Danny was murdered, right?
I don’t think there’s any doubt
920
00:55:45,800 –> 00:55:47,880
about it because then that other
person.
921
00:55:47,880 –> 00:55:49,520
But that’s the thing.
We don’t know.
922
00:55:49,640 –> 00:55:50,360
We don’t.
Know we don’t know.
923
00:55:51,000 –> 00:55:55,480
And for some reason that detail
never made it to the FB is
924
00:55:55,560 –> 00:55:59,080
report on this.
The only way they find that out
925
00:55:59,120 –> 00:56:04,160
is they filed a Freedom of
Information Act request and it
926
00:56:04,160 –> 00:56:07,680
was in like 2013.
And years and years and years
927
00:56:07,680 –> 00:56:11,760
later someone from the
Martinsburg, WV police calls
928
00:56:11,760 –> 00:56:14,440
them and is like, yeah, I think
we can let you see it.
929
00:56:14,480 –> 00:56:19,280
And that’s where they find this
information about this witness
930
00:56:19,280 –> 00:56:21,440
seeing someone entering Danny’s
room.
931
00:56:21,440 –> 00:56:25,560
So the fact that didn’t make it
to the FBI report also to me
932
00:56:25,560 –> 00:56:28,960
speaks of more than just
incompetence.
933
00:56:28,960 –> 00:56:31,040
That feels like a cover up.
Sure.
934
00:56:31,360 –> 00:56:34,320
So, I don’t know.
I think he was murdered.
935
00:56:34,320 –> 00:56:38,080
But if you’re hoping to have a
definitive answer from watching
936
00:56:38,080 –> 00:56:39,840
this document, you’re not going
to get it.
937
00:56:39,880 –> 00:56:43,120
No, definitely not.
And if you’re wondering whether
938
00:56:43,120 –> 00:56:46,480
anything interesting happens to
Christian Hansen, the answer is
939
00:56:46,480 –> 00:56:48,480
no.
Nothing happens to Christian
940
00:56:48,480 –> 00:56:50,600
Hansen.
They talked to a woman named
941
00:56:50,600 –> 00:56:55,040
Norma D Giacinto, who I thought
was interesting because she
942
00:56:55,040 –> 00:56:57,760
said, you know, I was able to
get a bunch of information about
943
00:56:57,760 –> 00:57:01,000
the Promise software just by
going to bowling alleys in DC
944
00:57:01,000 –> 00:57:03,360
and like asking.
Yeah, that was but.
945
00:57:04,360 –> 00:57:08,480
Yeah, she’s also like the only
source for some of the bigger
946
00:57:08,480 –> 00:57:13,320
claims about this.
And her source is I heard it
947
00:57:13,320 –> 00:57:15,000
from somebody at a bowling
alley.
948
00:57:15,560 –> 00:57:16,960
Bowling alley?
Yeah.
949
00:57:17,400 –> 00:57:22,000
So I don’t know.
There’s not a lot of answers in
950
00:57:22,000 –> 00:57:24,840
this.
You don’t ever get definitive
951
00:57:24,840 –> 00:57:29,960
proof of the existence of the
Octopus or the involvement of
952
00:57:29,960 –> 00:57:32,560
those people in it.
Nothing really interesting
953
00:57:32,640 –> 00:57:38,160
happens with Christian.
And I mean, at the end they kind
954
00:57:38,160 –> 00:57:42,680
of hint that Joe Cuellar is
probably your demon here.
955
00:57:42,840 –> 00:57:45,720
Like if commit the murder, he
probably knows who did.
956
00:57:45,760 –> 00:57:48,120
But beyond that we don’t find
out much.
957
00:57:48,120 –> 00:57:51,800
It’s kind of a bummer of an
ending it end it reminds me of
958
00:57:51,800 –> 00:57:55,240
the ending of Big Brother or
1984.
959
00:57:55,520 –> 00:57:56,920
Sorry.
Oh, sure, yeah.
960
00:57:57,080 –> 00:58:00,200
Where?
Spoiler at the end, the guy’s
961
00:58:00,200 –> 00:58:02,960
just like, yeah, I guess I
fucking love Big Brother after
962
00:58:02,960 –> 00:58:06,160
all right?
That’s how it’s going to end.
963
00:58:06,920 –> 00:58:11,920
I mean this great ending of that
book, but it’s not a very good
964
00:58:11,920 –> 00:58:15,880
ending to this documentary.
No, this documentary kind of
965
00:58:15,880 –> 00:58:19,640
ends the same way, where
everyone involved is just kind
966
00:58:19,640 –> 00:58:21,960
of like, yeah, fuck it.
I guess it’s just a conspiracy
967
00:58:21,960 –> 00:58:25,720
theory, yeah.
Well, it’s also just like at the
968
00:58:25,800 –> 00:58:28,440
end.
Christian is just like, no, I’m,
969
00:58:28,600 –> 00:58:30,960
I’m just going to not, I’m going
to stop thinking about this
970
00:58:30,960 –> 00:58:32,160
anymore.
I’m good.
971
00:58:32,200 –> 00:58:35,400
Bye.
He gets a frantic phone call
972
00:58:35,400 –> 00:58:39,080
from Michael.
Yeah, but that’s again where I’m
973
00:58:39,080 –> 00:58:42,240
just kind of like, this just
sounds like a guy who is not
974
00:58:42,240 –> 00:58:49,080
doing well in life, ’cause like
he sounds at that point, he
975
00:58:49,080 –> 00:58:52,000
sounds quite incoherent in that
phone call.
976
00:58:52,120 –> 00:58:56,160
Yeah, and yeah, I do still feel
like Danny Casalaro was
977
00:58:56,160 –> 00:58:58,680
murdered.
But I also feel like this
978
00:58:58,680 –> 00:59:03,640
documentary kind of sets any
progress toward that being
979
00:59:03,640 –> 00:59:07,720
proven back a little bit.
Maybe feel like this documentary
980
00:59:07,840 –> 00:59:11,400
almost unintentionally puts a
little doubt back into the
981
00:59:11,400 –> 00:59:14,400
story.
Yeah, and a lot of it is because
982
00:59:14,400 –> 00:59:18,640
of the Christian Hansen stuff
and like them sort of opining on
983
00:59:18,640 –> 00:59:20,800
it.
And I don’t know, this could
984
00:59:20,800 –> 00:59:23,200
have been, this could have been
a bitching 90 minute
985
00:59:23,200 –> 00:59:25,720
documentary.
Absolutely, Absolutely.
986
00:59:25,920 –> 00:59:29,880
There is a solid 90 minutes of
really interesting stuff in this
987
00:59:29,880 –> 00:59:33,720
4 hour documentary.
Yeah, and it’s just there’s so
988
00:59:33,720 –> 00:59:37,800
much of the film makers
interwoven with it, It also
989
00:59:37,800 –> 00:59:40,240
makes it a little hard to
follow.
990
00:59:40,240 –> 00:59:43,120
Yes, makes it very hard to
follow I would say.
991
00:59:43,240 –> 00:59:46,680
And by the end, you’re kind of
like, well, what is the point?
992
00:59:46,800 –> 00:59:50,120
What is the point of this?
Basically, there’s no.
993
00:59:50,280 –> 00:59:53,160
Yeah, there’s just.
It’s a very unsatisfying ending.
994
00:59:53,640 –> 00:59:56,480
Yeah.
Which I guess an unsolved crime
995
00:59:56,680 –> 00:59:59,240
always is.
I mean, you know, I have.
996
00:59:59,440 –> 01:00:02,520
I’m not expecting a Netflix
documentary to come out and be
997
01:00:02,520 –> 01:00:08,080
like we fucking solved it, But
you’ve got to have a narrative
998
01:00:08,280 –> 01:00:12,040
that resolves like you’re still
making entertainment, you know?
999
01:00:12,360 –> 01:00:15,800
Yeah, and the stuff about
Christian Hansen at the
1000
01:00:15,800 –> 01:00:18,160
beginning, where they make it
seem like he’s going to have
1001
01:00:18,160 –> 01:00:21,080
this big breakdown.
I thought that guy was going to
1002
01:00:21,080 –> 01:00:23,360
die.
That was such bullshit.
1003
01:00:23,640 –> 01:00:28,920
That was a false lead.
Yes, that felt kind of like what
1004
01:00:28,920 –> 01:00:33,280
Danny Casalaro probably went
through to some extent, where
1005
01:00:33,280 –> 01:00:35,200
it’s like, Oh no, follow this
lead.
1006
01:00:35,560 –> 01:00:36,920
This is gonna take you
somewhere.
1007
01:00:37,400 –> 01:00:37,920
Sure.
Yeah.
1008
01:00:38,000 –> 01:00:38,360
Yeah.
Yeah.
1009
01:00:38,480 –> 01:00:40,160
It’s.
In the end, and it’s like I did
1010
01:00:40,160 –> 01:00:43,480
all that for nothing at all.
Have you seen Mr. Organ?
1011
01:00:44,000 –> 01:00:46,360
No, that sounded it.
That’s an interest.
1012
01:00:46,440 –> 01:00:48,960
That’s from the guy who did the
Tickle documentary, right?
1013
01:00:48,960 –> 01:00:52,520
David Ferrier, It’s really
interesting.
1014
01:00:52,680 –> 01:00:56,080
It reminds me of this, except
with Mr. Organ.
1015
01:00:56,080 –> 01:00:59,280
I think it’s intentional.
Like you come out of that kind
1016
01:00:59,280 –> 01:01:03,480
of feeling like how David
Ferrier probably felt at the end
1017
01:01:03,480 –> 01:01:06,800
of making that, where it’s like
I just spent all this time on
1018
01:01:06,800 –> 01:01:10,720
that, like, but you can’t look
away when you’re watching it and
1019
01:01:10,720 –> 01:01:13,240
then you get to the end and you
feel like you’ve been conned.
1020
01:01:14,880 –> 01:01:19,400
I think that’s what David
Ferrier was going for Mr.
1021
01:01:19,400 –> 01:01:21,080
Oregon.
I don’t think that’s what they
1022
01:01:21,080 –> 01:01:24,840
were going for here, no, But I
did feel a little conned by the
1023
01:01:24,840 –> 01:01:27,760
Christian Hansen stuff.
Yeah, I definitely.
1024
01:01:27,760 –> 01:01:32,720
That whole storyline was, yeah,
especially how it began.
1025
01:01:32,920 –> 01:01:37,400
If you contrast how it starts,
the the tone of how it starts
1026
01:01:37,400 –> 01:01:41,720
versus the tone of how it ends,
where it starts off and he is
1027
01:01:41,720 –> 01:01:44,480
very much portrayed as like
losing his mind.
1028
01:01:44,680 –> 01:01:49,600
And the narrator, who is the
filmmaker, has a tone where he’s
1029
01:01:49,600 –> 01:01:52,520
like almost eulogizing his
friend, right.
1030
01:01:52,680 –> 01:01:55,200
Really makes it sound like this
guy died.
1031
01:01:55,520 –> 01:01:58,120
And then you get and then you
get to the other end.
1032
01:01:58,120 –> 01:02:02,280
It’s like it’s all fine.
I’m just going off to live my
1033
01:02:02,280 –> 01:02:04,760
life, blah blah blah.
I’m like, okay, buddy, get
1034
01:02:04,760 –> 01:02:06,840
whatever.
It’s that frantic phone call
1035
01:02:06,840 –> 01:02:10,480
from Michael and it’s like, no.
Whoa, buddy.
1036
01:02:11,880 –> 01:02:18,320
That’s the old me, like, all
right, yeah, Interesting way to
1037
01:02:18,320 –> 01:02:20,800
end things, right.
That’s how they ended it.
1038
01:02:20,840 –> 01:02:23,200
And that’s how we’re going to
end it.
1039
01:02:23,480 –> 01:02:26,200
It is.
Thank you so much for watching
1040
01:02:26,200 –> 01:02:28,520
all four episodes of this.
Sure.
1041
01:02:28,720 –> 01:02:32,000
What do we have to plug before
we get out of here?
1042
01:02:32,080 –> 01:02:34,000
You don’t show dot link slash
shop.
1043
01:02:34,200 –> 01:02:37,760
You can buy shirts from this
podcast and all the other
1044
01:02:37,760 –> 01:02:40,120
podcasts.
And please do that because we
1045
01:02:40,120 –> 01:02:43,720
make money when you do Adam Todd
brown.substack.com.
1046
01:02:43,800 –> 01:02:46,360
And that’s all.
Well, you don’t.
1047
01:02:46,720 –> 01:02:51,040
You don’t. pod.supercast.com.
If you want bonus episodes and
1048
01:02:51,040 –> 01:02:53,400
things of the like, that’s your
best option.
1049
01:02:53,400 –> 01:02:56,040
The Patreon is still open,
There’s only one level, it’s
1050
01:02:56,040 –> 01:02:59,080
$18.00 a month.
If you go to Supercast, though,
1051
01:02:59,160 –> 01:03:02,560
you can subscribe to just this
show or the other shows
1052
01:03:02,560 –> 01:03:04,440
individually for less money than
that.
1053
01:03:04,760 –> 01:03:09,400
Or we have lifetime memberships.
If you want to go in the extreme
1054
01:03:09,400 –> 01:03:12,080
opposite direction, give me a
shit out of money right up
1055
01:03:12,080 –> 01:03:13,840
front.
Either way, I love you all the
1056
01:03:13,840 –> 01:03:16,320
same.
You don’t pod.supercast.com
1057
01:03:16,680 –> 01:03:18,440
Olivia, what do you have to
plug?
1058
01:03:18,560 –> 01:03:21,560
I mean, I I’m still on Twitter
for some reason.
1059
01:03:21,560 –> 01:03:22,440
Hi there.
Hi Dar.
1060
01:03:22,520 –> 01:03:26,560
I’m also on Blue Sky, but I have
just literally never used that.
1061
01:03:26,560 –> 01:03:30,720
So I mean you can find it’s the
same name so you know, but other
1062
01:03:30,720 –> 01:03:33,600
than that, nothing.
All right, let’s get out of
1063
01:03:33,600 –> 01:03:34,560
here.
Olivia.
1064
01:03:34,600 –> 01:03:35,680
Say goodbye.
Bye.
1065
01:03:36,040 –> 01:03:44,240
Goodbye, everybody.
We love you, people of Earth.
1066
01:03:44,600 –> 01:03:47,480
Your planet just has to be
destroyed, Japan.
1067
01:03:55,920 –> 01:03:57,720
Is not the biggest fraud.