Conspiracy! The Show 151: Dope is Death

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Did I choose this one?
Hey everybody, Welcome to

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conspiracy the show.
I’m your host, Adam Todd Brown

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joining me as co-host this week.
My favorite co-host of all, no

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co-host, but I do have a couple
of guests.

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Very uncharacteristic for this
podcast.

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We don’t usually have guests.
It’s usually just me and a

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co-host case in point.
Caitlin cut my co-host on pretty

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scary which I Described as the
sister podcast to conspiracy to

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show scary.
Boo, pretty scary for you.

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Yes, to say that now still, it’s
still my vibe.

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Yeah, I feel ya.
Doing a little crossover episode

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here.
Wow, so cool and Kaitlyn and I

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are here to talk to Mia, Donovan
filmmaker here to discuss her

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new documentary.
Dope is death Mia.

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How’s it going?
Well thanks, thanks for having

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me.
Yeah, thank you for being here.

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We Kaitlyn.
And I talked to Mia before.

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On an episode of pretty scary
about her previous documentary,

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which is called deprogrammed, if
you’ve never seen it, it’s

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really good.
It is about a cult deprogrammer

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with a whole lot of Personality.
Ted Patrick, very Charming.

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Cult deprogrammer.
He’s got a lot of Verve Black

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Lightning Man.
Very interesting guy.

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Yeah, but we’re talking about me
as new documentary today, which

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is called dope is death.
If he could give us just a quick

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elevator pitch, synopsis Of what
it’s about.

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So dope is death traces, the
history of Community Acupuncture

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to the Black Panthers.
In the young Lords in the South

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Bronx, who in the early 70s
found at the First Community

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Acupuncture Clinic that treated
people with Heroin addiction

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issues.
And this story seems like one.

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That was kind of lost to
history.

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How did, how did you first come
across it?

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Well, I in Montreal, I have a I
was visiting an Acupuncturists.

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For I have chronic migraines and
he was recommended to me, he’s

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kind of an eccentric, guy was
working at his apartment.

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And there was this poster on the
wall that we which we see in the

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documentary that said we will
fight heroin and methadone by

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all means necessary acupuncture,
heels educate, the people and

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they were illustrations of black
hands holding acupuncture

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needles and it said dr.
Mutulu Shakur just a really

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fascinating poster.
So I started asking him about it

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and then he just sort of told
me.

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Nonchalantly, how he went to the
South Bronx of the 70s and talk

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to backstrokers, Dad, how some
black panthers came to Montreal.

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And I was like, whoa, like, you
know, and just oh, I need this.

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And at first, I didn’t, I was
like, is he embellishing?

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Is this really happened?
This, you know, I’d never heard

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about this.
So I started digging around and

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back then that was like 10 years
ago.

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There was very little
information online but you could

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find it.
So then I but you had to know

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what you were looking for,
because the sisters really been

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buried.
For many reasons.

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But so that’s how I learned
about it.

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I think it was, I mean, the
reason the most obvious are the

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most probable reason why we
don’t know about it is because

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of the connection with the Black
Panthers and the young Lords

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and, you know, they were
rejecting methadone maintenance

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and they were politicizing users
are former drug users.

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And right, so this eventually
saw them as a threat.

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So, I mean that’s that’s kind of
what the film covers it.

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Like how was this Clinic
considered a threat and it

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Center kind of centers around at
least the acupuncture part

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because you mentioned the
acupuncture centers around

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something called the native
protocol or NAD?

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A can you talk about that a
little bit?

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Yeah so today there’s been NADA
protocol is a national

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acupuncture detox Association
which is a standardized

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five-point your acupuncture
protocol that’s been used that’s

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being used all over the world to
treat people.

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With n xiety trauma and heroin
withdrawal symptoms.

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Wow it would and it was founded
in 1985 by this white doctor

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named dr.
Michael Smith but what dr.

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Michael Smith was at the Lincoln
detox in the South Bronx at the

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Black Panthers and the young
Lords in the 70s.

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And then after that clinic, got
closed by the city and 78,

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Michael Smith, revamped it 1985
but didn’t give credit to the

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real history.
So the pro so the film is really

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about like this is where this
history really comes from.

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You know, it’s from these people
who have been written.

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Added the history because
they’ve been criminalized for

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the political views and right,
really, really criminalized to.

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I mean your documentary gets in
into it but we’re talking

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long-term, prison sentences,
like not just a smear campaign.

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I mean they, they were dragged
out profoundly.

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I mean, their lives were
completely dismantled for trying

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to help people.
It’s fascinating and said, yeah,

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yeah, people always point to the
the Black Panthers carrying

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guns, as the point where the
government got scared.

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And, no, I think it’s when they
started giving out free

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breakfast and things of the
like, and I am assuming you

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looked into the Black Panthers,
a whole lot for this

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documentary.
What do you think are some of

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the biggest misconceptions about
them and similar groups that

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were really active in the 60s
and 70s?

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Well, it’s like what you just
said they were their primary,

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you know, they, they were
providing services.

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The community that that like
services like free breakfast,

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programs daycare centers, you
know, they were giving they had

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free health clinics.
They were providing services to

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community.
That wasn’t, that was being

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underserved by the government
and J Edgar Hoover in 1969.

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Said that the Black Panthers
were the greatest threat to the

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nation because they were
organizing on their own outside

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the system.
Lovely.

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I’ve got a question for you.
I mean, you’re Canadian

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Incorrect.
Yeah.

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So you know this is such an
interesting topic for a Canadian

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to cover in my for anybody
outside of America to cover.

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So I want to know what your draw
to this store.

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I mean, it’s a fascinating story
all on its own I get why you’re

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like this totally needs to be a
documentary but this is a real

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deep dive into a wacky country
that lives south of you.

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So I, you know, as a Canadian,
how did you process this story

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and How does it change or
solidify your views of the

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United States?
I mean, it’s a big question and

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I’m sorry, but that’s what I’m
most curious about.

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I mean, it is a big question,
but I think it touches and

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because this, this project
touches on so many different

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themes that I think access to
healthcare.

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Like, we have free healthcare
here.

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It’s not never been an issue for
anyone.

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I know nobody’s ever had to pay
for like weed.

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It’s just not, it’s not
something we have to worry

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about, we don’t have to worry
about having a surance.

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We don’t have to worry about
Out, you know think twice about

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going to the doctor or spend
money to have a baby are all

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these things you know like it’s
just not a thing and also the

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criminal justice system like
it’s in the u.s. it’s so we have

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political prisoners we have we
still have systemic racism,

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obviously here to but
everything’s just.

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So the history is just so deep
and I think the racial system in

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the US with medic.
I mean I don’t want to say that.

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Is that much different but I
would just focus on the medical

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like health care for one thing.
That sure political like it’s

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just it’s can it’s got to be
confounding to just be like why

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the hell wouldn’t you want this
for the people?

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Why wouldn’t you want your
population healthy like why?

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So I understand that does the
systemic racism aspect look,

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more flagrant from the outside
as somebody who isn’t from the

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United States compared to other
places.

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Well definitely.
Now No, but I think I’m not I’m

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it’s when I first started.
This project was so my entry

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point in this film was meeting
my acupuncturist much sure

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writing and then writing letters
to dr.

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Mutulu Shakur.
Who’s incarcerated so visiting

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him.
Wow.

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Since getting to know him and
really diving into the story.

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Like I’m not sure that the
racism was it.

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Now it’s in such sharp Focus
that I just see white supremacy

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everywhere.
I’m so aware of and it’s hard

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for me to think back.
How I saw things before, maybe

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there was some, I was a little
bit more, it was easier to not

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see it.
Before again, verse 14, when I

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started, this is before Trump,
and before the event that they

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were coming to the Forefront
eventually.

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Anyway, you went on quite a
journey with this documentary.

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It sounds like, like personally.
So it’s, that’s fascinating.

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Yeah, and I mean, I think what’s
interesting is just how

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political Healthcare is.
Yeah.

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Essentially it’s like it’s so It
makes sense that the Black

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Panthers.
Now it makes so much.

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It makes it so clear why the
Black Panthers and then the

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young Lords were concerned with
health care because interesting,

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there is so political and it’s
about taking care of the needs

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of the people.
If You’re vulnerable of your

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health is at the hands of the
government and you don’t have

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access to that then that makes
you so vulnerable like yeah,

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they’re their goal essentially
was let’s not just be were

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interested in, not just learning
acupuncture to treat addiction,

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but also to be towards
Determination like how can we

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treat our own people so we’re
not on this medical system that

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abuses us that has exploited us.
Yeah so there was a lot now it’s

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like oh yeah it makes total
sense you know like they did

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things like the young Lords took
over a before they took over the

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hospital to do this acupuncture
program.

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They took over.
They hijacked an x-ray truck

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that they had going around
Manhattan and it never went

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above 110 Street and there was 2
Issues in the South Bronx.

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So they went to like up early
Upper West Side, took over the

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truck and the the X-ray
technicians were on board with

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us.
So they went up to the South

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Bronx and start treating people.
And these were like 19, 20

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year-old activists, who are
doing this.

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It’s amazing.
Yeah, around the time this was

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all happening.
Someone else decided methadone

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was a viable treatment for
heroin.

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Can you talk about some of the
drawbacks of that because that’s

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how that’s a thing?
It’s always seemed weird to me.

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It doesn’t seem like so much of
a treatment as just like a

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government-sanctioned version of
heroin.

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I’ve never understood how that
could possibly help well for my

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understanding and talking to dr.
Peter born who was involved in

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drug policy under Reagan and
Carter.

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I’m sorry not Reagan Nixon
right?

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It’s really clear.
That methadone was like used as

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a part of a political campaign.
Was a way to say like, because

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it heroin was such a huge social
problem in New York and San

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Francisco and other cities, the
city blamed crime on heroin,

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like everything in New York at
that time was really, blamed on

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heroin addiction.
That’s what made the city.

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So dangerous.
So these politicians were

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offered, you know, doctors were
saying, methadone has a way to

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treat this social problem.
We just give the methadone they

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won’t want to go out.
People won’t want to steal it.

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Will reduce crime.
It’ll It’s like a Band-Aid way

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of like, fixing a situation.
So, there was like, things that

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people believed in, and people
believe that heroin addiction

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was a chronic illness that in a
sense.

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You know, there was a different
attitude towards that, so the

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met the chemical treatment was,
you know, just it just made

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sense at the time.
So they started putting a lot of

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money into methadone programs.
But the Black Panthers in the

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young Lords were like, wait a
second, why should we, why are

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you trying to treat these
problems with another drug?

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And they recognize that, you
know, you have To go.

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00:12:24,600 –> 00:12:27,700
Once a day like you’re here to
get your methadone treatment so

219
00:12:27,700 –> 00:12:30,900
you’re a dependent on the state.
Yeah, trouble anywhere.

220
00:12:31,000 –> 00:12:33,800
They understood.
It was 42 that it was addictive.

221
00:12:33,800 –> 00:12:36,300
You had to go through withdrawal
symptoms to get off of it.

222
00:12:36,300 –> 00:12:38,800
There were side effects, you
know, like how so they were the

223
00:12:38,800 –> 00:12:41,800
first, you know, like we see
that more now.

224
00:12:41,800 –> 00:12:45,300
There’s more understanding is
still the standard treatment for

225
00:12:45,700 –> 00:12:48,900
heroin and opioid addiction,
like, methadone is still huge

226
00:12:48,900 –> 00:12:51,900
now, but they understood the
pharmaceutical like, who it’s

227
00:12:51,900 –> 00:12:54,000
served.
Most they understood the, you

228
00:12:54,000 –> 00:12:57,000
know.
System that how it was like how

229
00:12:57,000 –> 00:12:58,900
the government in the
pharmaceutical companies could

230
00:12:58,900 –> 00:13:01,600
capitalize and exploit people
and control people with

231
00:13:01,600 –> 00:13:02,900
methadone.
Yeah.

232
00:13:03,000 –> 00:13:07,200
Right.
So they set up an alternative

233
00:13:07,500 –> 00:13:10,500
which was called the Lincoln
detox.

234
00:13:10,500 –> 00:13:14,300
Was it Lincoln detox center?
Well, the the real name was the

235
00:13:14,300 –> 00:13:19,400
Lincoln detox people’s program.
This is Lincoln detox and can

236
00:13:19,400 –> 00:13:23,200
you talk a little bit about how
that came about and who was

237
00:13:23,200 –> 00:13:25,200
behind it?
It’s kind of crazy.

238
00:13:25,200 –> 00:13:28,800
So basically in 1970, the
Lincoln Hospital in the South

239
00:13:28,800 –> 00:13:31,500
Bronx was completely
dilapidating.

240
00:13:31,500 –> 00:13:34,100
Like children were getting lead
paint poisoning, there is a

241
00:13:34,100 –> 00:13:37,100
rat’s, there is like people who
are, you know, there was Major,

242
00:13:37,100 –> 00:13:40,400
Net medical neglect at this
Hospital, the neighbors called

243
00:13:40,400 –> 00:13:45,500
it, The Butcher Shop.
It was in a condemned 25 years

244
00:13:45,500 –> 00:13:48,100
earlier the building was in such
terrible shape.

245
00:13:48,100 –> 00:13:52,300
So these and they it was a
predominantly Puerto Rican

246
00:13:52,300 –> 00:13:54,300
neighborhood.
In the staff didn’t know.

247
00:13:54,500 –> 00:13:58,600
Really spoke Spanish like it was
just really not and it was

248
00:13:58,600 –> 00:14:00,600
serve.
It was there for four hunt was

249
00:14:00,600 –> 00:14:03,800
like serving 400,000 people, so
it was just like a really, you

250
00:14:03,800 –> 00:14:08,600
know, substandard hospital.
So they punch the young Lords in

251
00:14:08,600 –> 00:14:12,500
the Black Panthers.
Took it over to have a say, it’s

252
00:14:12,500 –> 00:14:15,900
because they want to community
involvement and how to care for

253
00:14:15,900 –> 00:14:18,700
the community, they want it.
Spanish-speaking doctors, they

254
00:14:18,700 –> 00:14:22,300
wanted a drug treatment center
that wasn’t methadone

255
00:14:22,300 –> 00:14:25,100
maintenance.
They had a bunch of asks, well,

256
00:14:25,100 –> 00:14:28,800
what I love about what you
captured here is and not to just

257
00:14:29,300 –> 00:14:31,200
completely tell everybody was in
the documentary.

258
00:14:31,200 –> 00:14:35,000
But you know, you have these
women that collected over 2,000

259
00:14:35,000 –> 00:14:39,200
specific complaints about the
hospital before they wage this

260
00:14:39,400 –> 00:14:42,200
takeover, which I don’t want to
get into detail and because it’s

261
00:14:42,200 –> 00:14:44,900
the amazing and I just wanted to
watch over people the way it

262
00:14:44,900 –> 00:14:47,700
washed over me.
But that was their leverage and

263
00:14:47,700 –> 00:14:50,600
it was brilliant because it was
like, yeah, you can tell us that

264
00:14:50,600 –> 00:14:54,300
we’re doing these things but we
collected 2000 agree.

265
00:14:54,500 –> 00:14:58,800
Just complaints about this
medical facility and that’s what

266
00:14:58,800 –> 00:15:02,100
leveraged all the change.
And I just it’s incredible.

267
00:15:02,200 –> 00:15:04,800
I had no idea this happened.
No idea.

268
00:15:05,300 –> 00:15:08,500
It’s totally amazing because
they were all they really were

269
00:15:08,500 –> 00:15:10,300
serving the community in that
direct way.

270
00:15:10,400 –> 00:15:12,300
It’s like going to decide what
people need.

271
00:15:12,300 –> 00:15:14,300
We’re going to ask them what
they need and we’re going to

272
00:15:14,308 –> 00:15:17,200
present these demands to the
hospital and if they don’t they

273
00:15:17,200 –> 00:15:20,100
gave them a year like they to do
something and then finally,

274
00:15:20,100 –> 00:15:21,900
they’re like, well, we have no
choice, you have to take this

275
00:15:21,900 –> 00:15:25,800
into our own hands and demand,
and at At that time like they

276
00:15:25,800 –> 00:15:28,800
it’s pretty incredible that they
were able to negotiate with the

277
00:15:28,808 –> 00:15:31,300
city and the hospital.
Yeah.

278
00:15:31,300 –> 00:15:35,400
Like it’s like a whole other
era, you know, like I can’t

279
00:15:35,400 –> 00:15:37,400
imagine this happening now.
Like they were, there was a lot

280
00:15:37,400 –> 00:15:40,700
of communication, they were able
to have some of their demands

281
00:15:40,700 –> 00:15:45,300
met for at least until the end
of the 70s when things changed

282
00:15:45,300 –> 00:15:47,700
again.
Yeah, that like that whole

283
00:15:47,700 –> 00:15:52,900
Hospital takeover seen in the
documentary is fascinating, I’ve

284
00:15:52,900 –> 00:15:54,400
loved that so much sorry to cut
you off.

285
00:15:54,400 –> 00:15:55,000
Kaitlyn.
Go ahead.

286
00:15:55,000 –> 00:15:57,500
No, no.
I was just kind of musing about

287
00:15:57,600 –> 00:16:00,700
the I couldn’t help but think
about the activism that I see

288
00:16:00,700 –> 00:16:04,800
now.
And this was so specific,

289
00:16:04,800 –> 00:16:07,400
everything about the young Lords
in the Black Panthers.

290
00:16:07,400 –> 00:16:12,000
Everything they did came with
such specific aligned action and

291
00:16:12,000 –> 00:16:15,900
it was really inspiring to watch
and to see how effective that

292
00:16:15,900 –> 00:16:17,800
is.
But also, it just kind of made

293
00:16:17,800 –> 00:16:21,000
me think about a lot of the
activism I see now and I feel

294
00:16:21,000 –> 00:16:23,700
like so much of that energy gets
diluted by things like social

295
00:16:23,700 –> 00:16:28,500
media and And then the point of
it gets lost, the messaging gets

296
00:16:28,500 –> 00:16:32,300
weird and everything, kind of
falls apart.

297
00:16:32,500 –> 00:16:35,700
I would you agree with that
because I mean, would with what

298
00:16:35,700 –> 00:16:37,900
you with what?
You spent your time putting

299
00:16:37,900 –> 00:16:39,600
together here.
What are the what are the

300
00:16:39,600 –> 00:16:42,000
differences in parallels in
activism that you see now?

301
00:16:42,400 –> 00:16:45,400
Well, I mean, I like what you
said, it’s true like that at

302
00:16:45,400 –> 00:16:49,500
that time, it was very Community
localized in.

303
00:16:49,500 –> 00:16:52,100
Yeah.
And that’s, I don’t even know if

304
00:16:52,100 –> 00:16:53,600
we can go back to their right
now.

305
00:16:53,600 –> 00:16:58,600
Because everything Because the
social media that I think, we

306
00:16:58,600 –> 00:17:01,800
look at the activism back then
and what these groups in

307
00:17:01,800 –> 00:17:03,900
particular we’re trying to do
they were just they were looking

308
00:17:03,900 –> 00:17:06,300
around their community and
trying to see how they could

309
00:17:06,300 –> 00:17:08,300
serve, the people around them
directly.

310
00:17:08,300 –> 00:17:10,200
And I think that model is
important.

311
00:17:10,200 –> 00:17:11,599
I think people want to go back
to that.

312
00:17:11,599 –> 00:17:15,099
We the community knows best
their own Community.

313
00:17:15,200 –> 00:17:19,500
Yeah, with policing and defund,
the the defund, the police

314
00:17:19,500 –> 00:17:22,700
movement, its it it’s kind of
going back to that.

315
00:17:22,700 –> 00:17:27,400
Like we asked let’s find out in
our community what the best way

316
00:17:27,400 –> 00:17:32,400
is to deal with certain needs.
And yeah, I agree with you.

317
00:17:32,400 –> 00:17:36,000
I think people get overwhelmed
by how big these problems feel

318
00:17:36,200 –> 00:17:39,900
and, you know, from the
standpoint of an American, you

319
00:17:39,900 –> 00:17:44,300
know, there is a lot of local
clout that you can build.

320
00:17:44,300 –> 00:17:46,700
I mean, there’s a reason why so
many different layers of

321
00:17:46,700 –> 00:17:50,200
government exists within a
community, and then a city and

322
00:17:50,200 –> 00:17:53,500
then a county and because you
can get really, really specific

323
00:17:53,500 –> 00:17:56,900
if you want to, but I can’t help
but wonder if because of social

324
00:17:56,900 –> 00:18:01,300
media, the ideas get so broad
stroked, that’s not even a term,

325
00:18:01,300 –> 00:18:04,400
they turn into broad Strokes.
Thank you very much, pick it.

326
00:18:04,400 –> 00:18:07,400
Broad Strokes that sounded very
sexual sure.

327
00:18:07,400 –> 00:18:10,000
Dig, I don’t know what
broad-stroke tis, but I’m sure

328
00:18:10,000 –> 00:18:11,900
there was an item at the Bunny
Ranch for it.

329
00:18:12,000 –> 00:18:18,300
Okay, so it turns into broad
strokes and I mean, maybe I am

330
00:18:18,300 –> 00:18:21,100
just speaking for myself.
It’s just like, man, like, how

331
00:18:21,100 –> 00:18:23,600
can I make an impact?
And I feel like this documentary

332
00:18:23,600 –> 00:18:26,600
is such a great.
Reflection on very extreme

333
00:18:26,600 –> 00:18:30,900
activism.
This is this is it in radical

334
00:18:30,900 –> 00:18:34,400
activism, not extreme and
effective activism.

335
00:18:34,600 –> 00:18:37,800
I just admired the focus of this
community.

336
00:18:37,800 –> 00:18:41,100
Also side note, I have a crush
on half of the people in this

337
00:18:41,100 –> 00:18:45,800
documentary what a bunch of
charismatic individuals oh my

338
00:18:45,800 –> 00:18:49,000
God were you just like sorry
what did you say?

339
00:18:49,800 –> 00:18:54,200
The time with everyone.
Like every interview, I was like

340
00:18:54,400 –> 00:18:59,600
You know, everybody is so
charismatic there, I think.

341
00:18:59,600 –> 00:19:02,700
What’s what’s, I mean, I, we
just made this point but this

342
00:19:02,700 –> 00:19:05,800
direct, it’s like their goal.
They set goals.

343
00:19:05,800 –> 00:19:07,500
Yeah.
Like when gold a time and they

344
00:19:07,500 –> 00:19:11,300
did it and it was goals that
were Within Reach, but I feel

345
00:19:11,300 –> 00:19:13,800
like I only see that was like,
Fitness people on Instagram.

346
00:19:13,800 –> 00:19:16,900
Now, like just sit manageable
goals and this is a spinach day

347
00:19:16,900 –> 00:19:17,900
or whatever.
With this.

348
00:19:17,900 –> 00:19:20,500
I was just like, oh my God, all
these people look like they can

349
00:19:20,500 –> 00:19:24,000
dance in there as handsome and
they’re beautiful.

350
00:19:24,500 –> 00:19:27,100
Oh my God, you know and then
also they’re liking to take over

351
00:19:27,100 –> 00:19:29,100
a fuckin Hospital.
Like these are the coolest

352
00:19:29,100 –> 00:19:32,100
people I’ve ever seen in my life
and they were like 20.

353
00:19:32,400 –> 00:19:36,900
Yeah I was such an idiot at 20
II like I was thinking about

354
00:19:36,900 –> 00:19:39,200
that watching the documentary
about how I once got my car

355
00:19:39,200 –> 00:19:42,000
towed because I forgot to pay my
registration at 20.

356
00:19:42,100 –> 00:19:45,600
That’s who I was a 20 like I was
in helping anybody anyway?

357
00:19:45,900 –> 00:19:50,200
Good job Caitlin.
So one of the things I found

358
00:19:50,200 –> 00:19:55,700
really interesting about this is
after they would, Detox people

359
00:19:55,700 –> 00:19:59,300
and get them off of drugs then
they would move into trying to

360
00:19:59,300 –> 00:20:04,300
get those people a little more
involved in Revolutionary things

361
00:20:04,300 –> 00:20:08,100
and helping the community.
And oh man how much did the

362
00:20:08,100 –> 00:20:11,300
government hate that?
Well, that’s exactly, you know,

363
00:20:11,600 –> 00:20:13,800
they were being.
So the programs that they

364
00:20:13,800 –> 00:20:17,400
develop that the the Lincoln
detox drug detoxification

365
00:20:17,400 –> 00:20:20,300
program was running.
It was funded by the health and

366
00:20:20,300 –> 00:20:25,700
hospitals Corporation and so
with The state was finding it.

367
00:20:26,000 –> 00:20:31,600
And then, you know, by 1975,
they started to have major

368
00:20:31,600 –> 00:20:37,200
problems with getting funding
and because the city was trying

369
00:20:37,200 –> 00:20:40,300
to get out of it, they were like
they were because their model of

370
00:20:40,300 –> 00:20:44,600
treatment was not something that
was really understood you know

371
00:20:44,600 –> 00:20:47,600
like typical methadone
maintenance treatments you could

372
00:20:47,600 –> 00:20:50,000
just say okay the methadone cost
this much.

373
00:20:50,000 –> 00:20:54,400
Yep it all made sense but they
were doing these political You

374
00:20:54,400 –> 00:20:57,900
can classes but they were like,
Community therapeutic groups

375
00:20:57,900 –> 00:21:03,800
where people would talk about
identity racism, you know who

376
00:21:03,800 –> 00:21:06,700
drugged serve in a society?
So it was what’s what I found.

377
00:21:06,700 –> 00:21:10,900
Interesting was like a lot of
the models of drug therapy or

378
00:21:10,900 –> 00:21:14,200
12-step programs.
It’s a lot of it is like you

379
00:21:14,200 –> 00:21:16,500
have to take personal
responsibility.

380
00:21:16,600 –> 00:21:21,000
So everything’s like you know in
the eye like you know this is my

381
00:21:21,100 –> 00:21:24,100
yeah thing but they were
framing.

382
00:21:24,300 –> 00:21:27,700
Drug addiction in a cult
socio-economic situation.

383
00:21:27,800 –> 00:21:32,800
So, it was less like, you know,
we’re oppressed you how drugs

384
00:21:33,100 –> 00:21:37,500
serve in a press like to oppress
people?

385
00:21:37,500 –> 00:21:39,600
Yeah.
So they were really putting it

386
00:21:39,600 –> 00:21:43,500
in this context where they were
trying, where they were

387
00:21:43,500 –> 00:21:48,600
empowering the community to come
together and to resist drugs as

388
00:21:48,600 –> 00:21:52,100
a political action to towards
self-determination.

389
00:21:52,600 –> 00:21:57,500
So this of course, like Big city
of New York and including

390
00:21:57,800 –> 00:22:02,300
assemblyman Chuck Schumer who
called the program, a ripoff

391
00:22:02,300 –> 00:22:05,500
drug treatment program and
accuse them of indoctrinating

392
00:22:05,500 –> 00:22:07,300
drug addicts and to domestic
terrorists.

393
00:22:07,300 –> 00:22:08,900
Like, so I don’t know if they
use the word domestic

394
00:22:08,900 –> 00:22:13,300
terrorists, but they were, you
know, sure there was a lot of.

395
00:22:13,300 –> 00:22:15,600
I’m not sure if that word was
used that back then, but that’s

396
00:22:15,600 –> 00:22:17,600
sort of that was the meaning
right?

397
00:22:17,600 –> 00:22:22,900
And so the you know the program
basically like was they shut it

398
00:22:22,900 –> 00:22:25,800
down in 1978.
It lasted eight years and it’s

399
00:22:25,800 –> 00:22:29,900
pretty amazing that this
political program lasted that

400
00:22:29,900 –> 00:22:32,800
long, you know, like they were,
they were over it about the

401
00:22:32,800 –> 00:22:35,400
political political classes and
they were like, this is what

402
00:22:35,400 –> 00:22:37,600
we’re doing this, what we have
to do, and, you know, they

403
00:22:37,600 –> 00:22:40,300
weren’t doing anything wrong.
They were helping people, they

404
00:22:40,300 –> 00:22:42,300
were helping people, they were
educating people.

405
00:22:42,300 –> 00:22:45,300
They were telling them about
their, their rights as tenants.

406
00:22:46,300 –> 00:22:49,300
They were providing like
transportation to visit

407
00:22:49,300 –> 00:22:52,800
relatives in jail or prisons,
like they were doing so many.

408
00:22:52,800 –> 00:22:57,200
So many things like, Rent
strikes just you know like they

409
00:22:57,200 –> 00:23:01,000
were they were it was a holistic
treatment to a dick.

410
00:23:01,000 –> 00:23:03,700
Yeah.
Everything you know one of the

411
00:23:03,700 –> 00:23:05,800
one of the parts of the
documentary that really struck

412
00:23:05,800 –> 00:23:10,000
me was there’s an individual
that that you interviewed who

413
00:23:10,000 –> 00:23:15,800
was getting acupuncture today
today in a, you know, and it was

414
00:23:15,800 –> 00:23:19,700
so sweet to hear him talk about
how the acupuncture helped him

415
00:23:19,700 –> 00:23:23,400
with his anger and then how
helping with his anger helped

416
00:23:23,400 –> 00:23:24,900
him, uncover that he As an
angry.

417
00:23:24,900 –> 00:23:30,500
He was just sad and it really
registered with me how much

418
00:23:30,700 –> 00:23:36,900
emphasis of like healing there
was in this community and really

419
00:23:36,900 –> 00:23:40,900
viewing this wave of heroin
addiction as an attack on

420
00:23:41,000 –> 00:23:44,500
beautiful pieces of their
community and recovering.

421
00:23:44,500 –> 00:23:47,500
The individual was part of
recovering the community and I

422
00:23:47,500 –> 00:23:51,900
just I thought it was so sweet
and and beautiful and so

423
00:23:51,900 –> 00:23:54,500
different from the recovery
culture that I grew up Around.

424
00:23:54,500 –> 00:23:57,900
I mean, I’m not an addict, but
my dad spent a lot of time in a

425
00:23:57,900 –> 00:24:02,300
a and it’s, it’s all very
individual, you know?

426
00:24:02,300 –> 00:24:06,700
I, I me me me kind of stuff and
yeah, they’re all there for each

427
00:24:06,700 –> 00:24:08,900
other and listen, if somebody’s
listening to this and a has

428
00:24:08,900 –> 00:24:12,500
helped you, I’m not trying to
knock you off that, that cart by

429
00:24:12,500 –> 00:24:15,900
any means, but it just has such
a different way to look at

430
00:24:16,000 –> 00:24:19,500
sobriety and ensuring that when
these people held their hand out

431
00:24:19,500 –> 00:24:21,700
for help.
Somebody was there to grab their

432
00:24:21,700 –> 00:24:23,800
hand is really what?
That model looked like to me.

433
00:24:23,800 –> 00:24:26,600
It was very Beautiful, thanks.
Yeah, actually it’s not that you

434
00:24:26,600 –> 00:24:29,800
did it good eating, you know,
you did a good job capturing it.

435
00:24:29,800 –> 00:24:31,200
No, I was moved.
No.

436
00:24:31,200 –> 00:24:33,900
Yeah, it was beautiful.
That wasn’t a question.

437
00:24:33,900 –> 00:24:37,800
Caitlin, keep it together.
Tricaster God damn it.

438
00:24:37,800 –> 00:24:39,600
I’m just going to talk
sometimes.

439
00:24:41,100 –> 00:24:45,900
So, all of that, helping the
community gets the Lincoln

440
00:24:45,900 –> 00:24:48,300
detox.
Basically, wrapped up in

441
00:24:48,300 –> 00:24:52,000
cointelpro nothing more
dangerous than helping people in

442
00:24:52,000 –> 00:24:53,900
the United States.
Absolutely not.

443
00:24:53,900 –> 00:24:58,100
And cointelpro is the thing
we’ve talked about on various

444
00:24:58,100 –> 00:24:59,800
episodes.
We’ve never done a whole episode

445
00:24:59,800 –> 00:25:01,900
about it.
Can you just for people who are

446
00:25:01,900 –> 00:25:03,800
unfamiliar?
Can you talk a little bit about

447
00:25:03,800 –> 00:25:09,200
what cointelpro was?
Yeah, so cointelpro was a secret

448
00:25:09,300 –> 00:25:13,600
FBI.
Ram that surveyed, it started

449
00:25:13,600 –> 00:25:18,000
out surveying with secret
surveillance of community people

450
00:25:18,000 –> 00:25:23,600
that were alleged communist
Communists and sorry, it’s hard

451
00:25:23,600 –> 00:25:27,700
to say basic things and then it
attacked they really start to

452
00:25:27,700 –> 00:25:31,400
heavily serve a black
nationalist groups.

453
00:25:31,400 –> 00:25:35,800
Puerto Rican groups student
movements like any sort of new

454
00:25:35,800 –> 00:25:40,700
laughter movements that that the
government saw is a threat.

455
00:25:40,800 –> 00:25:44,600
To the American stability of the
the time, the late 60s, early

456
00:25:44,600 –> 00:25:46,600
70s.
So the government launched

457
00:25:46,600 –> 00:25:50,100
campaigns to also specifically
against the black community,

458
00:25:50,100 –> 00:25:54,400
they had a mission to disrupt
and neutralize and prevent the

459
00:25:54,400 –> 00:25:57,300
rise of a black Messiah.
So, they were really that’s why

460
00:25:57,300 –> 00:26:00,900
they were surveying Malcolm
Martin Luther King, Malcolm X,

461
00:26:00,900 –> 00:26:05,600
like Fred Hampton, any
particularly black leaders who

462
00:26:05,600 –> 00:26:10,600
they felt could rise and unify
the black movement.

463
00:26:10,800 –> 00:26:13,600
They wanted to stop this.
So, dr.

464
00:26:13,600 –> 00:26:15,900
Mutulu Shakur ended up on this
list.

465
00:26:15,900 –> 00:26:17,800
I mean so many people were being
surveyed.

466
00:26:17,800 –> 00:26:20,700
Like people like James Baldwin
was surveyed.

467
00:26:20,700 –> 00:26:25,200
Even like this, sorry to change
Ball, but yeah, the list of

468
00:26:25,200 –> 00:26:28,900
people who were followed by
cointelpro is insane.

469
00:26:29,000 –> 00:26:32,300
Yeah like jazz musicians like
everyone.

470
00:26:33,000 –> 00:26:36,100
Well and what’s interesting
about it too is there’s a

471
00:26:36,100 –> 00:26:38,800
gentleman in your documentary
that really beautifully

472
00:26:38,800 –> 00:26:44,500
articulates the The way heroin
divided the community and create

473
00:26:44,500 –> 00:26:47,800
and did create crime and did
create gang factions and things

474
00:26:47,800 –> 00:26:50,100
like that, so that that was
real.

475
00:26:50,100 –> 00:26:53,900
And so there, you know, and many
systems benefited from that

476
00:26:53,900 –> 00:26:58,800
divisive element and to have
someone come along and say like

477
00:26:58,800 –> 00:27:02,000
let’s get you clean and bring
you into this fold and create a

478
00:27:02,008 –> 00:27:05,400
community like oh that’s that’s
not good.

479
00:27:05,400 –> 00:27:07,700
And also like that’s not forget
there’s a lot of money in

480
00:27:07,700 –> 00:27:09,600
methadone.
There’s a mean that’s really

481
00:27:09,600 –> 00:27:13,900
what this was about.
Is in my opinion, is like making

482
00:27:13,900 –> 00:27:19,200
sure methadone still had a place
to be in these communities.

483
00:27:19,600 –> 00:27:24,400
Well, by and by 1975, they were
they practically stopped,

484
00:27:24,400 –> 00:27:26,800
prescribing methadone, and
that’s when the heat that’s when

485
00:27:26,800 –> 00:27:29,900
they really came under.
Oh, okay.

486
00:27:29,900 –> 00:27:34,000
I’m it’s early days.
They did attend a methadone

487
00:27:34,000 –> 00:27:38,100
detox, which was still against
the norm because that’s the only

488
00:27:38,100 –> 00:27:41,400
way they could get funding and
most Most programs were

489
00:27:41,400 –> 00:27:44,300
methadone maintenance, so you
would just go every day and they

490
00:27:44,300 –> 00:27:47,600
did the methadone detox detox
which was a ten day detox

491
00:27:47,600 –> 00:27:50,700
program.
And they, the reason it sort of

492
00:27:50,700 –> 00:27:53,800
goes hand-in-hand with with how
they learn about acupuncture

493
00:27:53,800 –> 00:27:58,300
because it’s very, you know,
it’s very traumatic and like,

494
00:27:58,300 –> 00:28:01,200
panel go through withdraw and
they saw people would get

495
00:28:01,200 –> 00:28:04,000
nervous, you know, like about
day eight day nine, so they

496
00:28:04,000 –> 00:28:05,400
start to introduce the
acupuncture.

497
00:28:05,400 –> 00:28:09,100
At first to help, people eat
help ease the transition and

498
00:28:09,100 –> 00:28:12,100
then people started to just kind
of Just for the acupuncture.

499
00:28:12,300 –> 00:28:13,400
Adam.
Did this make you want to get

500
00:28:13,400 –> 00:28:17,200
acupuncture?
Oh, 100%, it really made me want

501
00:28:17,200 –> 00:28:19,900
to get acupuncture.
Well, being that this is a

502
00:28:19,900 –> 00:28:24,100
conspiracy podcast.
I also just a couple weeks ago

503
00:28:24,300 –> 00:28:27,900
in researching Jonestown and
MKUltra.

504
00:28:28,000 –> 00:28:32,300
It was suggested in one source
that I saw and I don’t know how

505
00:28:32,300 –> 00:28:36,400
much I believe this, but it was
suggested that at one point the

506
00:28:36,400 –> 00:28:41,300
CIA happened upon this
acupuncture technique, That

507
00:28:41,300 –> 00:28:45,400
opens up a person’s psychic
abilities and that now they just

508
00:28:45,400 –> 00:28:48,700
commit which I don’t know if
that’s me.

509
00:28:49,000 –> 00:28:52,600
I mean yeah like I want well I
want all of that.

510
00:28:52,600 –> 00:28:55,200
But yeah me too what we’re
talking about today?

511
00:28:55,200 –> 00:28:59,200
Seems a little more possible,
your right as a little bit more

512
00:28:59,200 –> 00:29:00,600
of the rubber meeting the road
here.

513
00:29:00,600 –> 00:29:06,200
I can’t argue with it but you
know, hey that that that that

514
00:29:06,200 –> 00:29:10,600
Eastern medicine is a lot to it.
I’m just saying internet police.

515
00:29:10,800 –> 00:29:12,700
I know you can hear me.
Let’s try it.

516
00:29:12,700 –> 00:29:15,300
Let me you know hey let’s all do
the psychic acupuncture and

517
00:29:15,300 –> 00:29:20,100
let’s see what happens.
I’ll do it all kind of a change.

518
00:29:20,100 –> 00:29:26,400
In course here, Ronald Ronald
Reagan, is the fucking worst and

519
00:29:26,400 –> 00:29:31,800
there is a great scene in the
documentary of him interacting

520
00:29:31,800 –> 00:29:35,300
with a group of black people.
Like the awful racist.

521
00:29:35,300 –> 00:29:37,900
He was, did you find this
footage?

522
00:29:37,900 –> 00:29:43,000
I won’t what couldn’t Believe
how great that clip was.

523
00:29:43,000 –> 00:29:46,400
And also I’ve never seen a
president.

524
00:29:46,400 –> 00:29:49,400
I’ve never seen footage of a
president like that ever in my

525
00:29:49,400 –> 00:29:52,400
life and also what was his role
in all all of this.

526
00:29:52,500 –> 00:29:54,200
If you can talk about that too.
Yeah.

527
00:29:54,200 –> 00:29:57,600
Well I just have to do a
shout-out to Edmund F who is my

528
00:29:57,900 –> 00:30:01,000
archival producer who found who
ow.

529
00:30:01,100 –> 00:30:04,300
I’m that guy rules.
I mean, you guys are a great

530
00:30:04,300 –> 00:30:06,600
team.
I have to say that that I don’t

531
00:30:06,600 –> 00:30:10,400
know how he found that.
I’ve never seen footage like

532
00:30:10,400 –> 00:30:11,800
that.
No, I’ve already said this of a

533
00:30:11,800 –> 00:30:16,200
president in my life and I so
Reagan after the shutdown is a

534
00:30:16,200 –> 00:30:19,100
Lincoln detox shut down in 1978.
My dr.

535
00:30:19,100 –> 00:30:21,200
Mutulu Shakur.
And and many of the

536
00:30:21,200 –> 00:30:24,700
acupuncturist started bana which
is a black acupuncture advisory

537
00:30:24,700 –> 00:30:27,200
Association of America.
Wow, look at you.

538
00:30:27,200 –> 00:30:29,000
That was really good.
It’s good.

539
00:30:29,500 –> 00:30:31,900
And they were a private clinic
in Harlem.

540
00:30:31,900 –> 00:30:35,700
So they hadn’t they no longer
had subsidies that the Lincoln

541
00:30:35,700 –> 00:30:39,200
hospital had they were on their
own and they became more of a

542
00:30:39,200 –> 00:30:42,600
full body.
Body Acupuncture Clinic doing

543
00:30:42,600 –> 00:30:45,300
the detox but just treating
everything.

544
00:30:45,400 –> 00:30:49,600
Sure, they were certified.
As mutulu had gotten his degree

545
00:30:49,600 –> 00:30:55,100
from Montreal and three.
There were they were doing real

546
00:30:55,100 –> 00:30:58,800
medicine, full body.
And at that time, when Reagan

547
00:30:58,800 –> 00:31:03,000
came in the early 80s, there was
a wave of repression that was

548
00:31:03,000 –> 00:31:08,000
coming down on all these the
leftover activists groups of the

549
00:31:08,000 –> 00:31:10,500
70s.
Let’s say and so Greg and Ray.

550
00:31:10,700 –> 00:31:12,600
Against that sort of shift, you
know, like you have the

551
00:31:12,600 –> 00:31:17,100
community like the early 70s
late 60s, I gave birth to a lot

552
00:31:17,100 –> 00:31:21,200
of community programs and then
it’s like, Reagan comes in

553
00:31:21,200 –> 00:31:23,500
everything.
So, you know, like he’s just the

554
00:31:23,500 –> 00:31:27,000
way he the way he amped up the
war on drugs, like what he did

555
00:31:27,000 –> 00:31:30,900
for social services like just.
So that’s sort of thought he

556
00:31:30,900 –> 00:31:34,600
comes in there to represent that
Collide and you see him visiting

557
00:31:34,600 –> 00:31:37,400
the South Bronx to give God.
Lots of the people.

558
00:31:37,400 –> 00:31:41,300
And he’s just, he’s just so you
just see the The total

559
00:31:41,300 –> 00:31:45,300
disrespect the total like
disdain even for this shaded in

560
00:31:45,308 –> 00:31:48,300
the South Bronx.
He’s just, he’s so accurate.

561
00:31:48,300 –> 00:31:51,400
I mean, it is like, I couldn’t
believe it.

562
00:31:51,400 –> 00:31:55,500
I watched it twice because I was
like, whoa, this is the spirit

563
00:31:55,500 –> 00:31:58,800
of it that I always knew was
there and I have never actually

564
00:31:58,800 –> 00:32:00,400
seen it in action.
Yeah.

565
00:32:00,400 –> 00:32:03,500
You know, because all of his
stuff is always was so well,

566
00:32:03,500 –> 00:32:07,600
produced and executed, I mean,
you got to give him that I, you

567
00:32:07,600 –> 00:32:10,100
know, all of his speeches all of
his appearances.

568
00:32:10,100 –> 00:32:14,700
He was Quaffed and calm.
And and you know, glossy and

569
00:32:15,100 –> 00:32:17,700
this.
He was a Ronald Reagan, was a

570
00:32:17,700 –> 00:32:21,500
less sloppy Trump like yeah,
everything about his policies

571
00:32:21,500 –> 00:32:23,500
and his rhetoric Was the Same As
Trump.

572
00:32:23,600 –> 00:32:29,000
He was just an actor.
Instead of trump even this, I

573
00:32:29,000 –> 00:32:32,900
have to say this footage of
Reagan yelling at that woman is,

574
00:32:33,000 –> 00:32:34,600
is more embarrassing than
anything.

575
00:32:34,600 –> 00:32:37,400
I saw Trump do on camera,
mostly, because I guess with

576
00:32:37,400 –> 00:32:38,700
Trump.
I kind of saw it coming from a

577
00:32:38,708 –> 00:32:41,800
hundred miles away and I never
took Take him, seriously.

578
00:32:41,900 –> 00:32:44,800
He it’s so frayed and
embarrassing.

579
00:32:44,900 –> 00:32:47,400
He looks like he’s yelling at
someone to get off of his Lon.

580
00:32:47,500 –> 00:32:51,500
Like, for real, that is, it is
insanely condescending.

581
00:32:51,600 –> 00:32:55,600
Like he’s just asking, what are
you gonna do for us?

582
00:32:55,800 –> 00:32:58,700
And he’s like, I can’t do
anything until you elect me.

583
00:32:58,900 –> 00:33:01,600
It’s like, that is not how
elections work sir.

584
00:33:02,000 –> 00:33:05,400
Oh my gosh, and he still won in
a landslide crazy.

585
00:33:05,500 –> 00:33:07,800
Yeah.
But I think that scene

586
00:33:07,800 –> 00:33:12,000
represents like the 80s like the
tension you The the, you know,

587
00:33:12,000 –> 00:33:15,900
the kind of he brought in this
new wave of hard on Crimes of

588
00:33:15,900 –> 00:33:18,500
the term.
Like yeah, tough on crime stuff

589
00:33:19,500 –> 00:33:23,000
and you know, like the whole
Nixon started the war on drugs

590
00:33:23,000 –> 00:33:25,300
and Reagan just amped it up
completely.

591
00:33:25,300 –> 00:33:29,100
And just this sort of like,
Christian, I don’t know.

592
00:33:29,400 –> 00:33:33,200
They just this wave ideological
conflict with yeah.

593
00:33:33,200 –> 00:33:37,100
And also just he really
represents the criminality

594
00:33:37,500 –> 00:33:39,500
coloring.
The addict is the criminal.

595
00:33:40,600 –> 00:33:43,900
You know, he really solidified
that, you know, when you’re

596
00:33:43,900 –> 00:33:47,600
fighting a war on drugs, you’re
fighting the drug addict, you

597
00:33:47,600 –> 00:33:49,000
know, and and that was the other
thing.

598
00:33:49,000 –> 00:33:51,700
That’s so remarkable about this
program is that it’s so

599
00:33:51,700 –> 00:33:55,800
integrated and and recognizing
there’s a human being stuck in

600
00:33:55,800 –> 00:34:01,600
this rather than an accomplice
to a, to a Insidious movement in

601
00:34:01,600 –> 00:34:05,100
these communities, you know, and
he really does just come in

602
00:34:05,100 –> 00:34:07,100
there.
Like he’s talking to criminals

603
00:34:07,100 –> 00:34:10,100
it sun, it’s unreal.
I it really crazy.

604
00:34:10,699 –> 00:34:13,800
In that scene because he’s, you
know, he’s talking to this, this

605
00:34:13,800 –> 00:34:17,300
woman in the South Bronx and you
see in the midst of like this

606
00:34:17,300 –> 00:34:20,300
South Bronx as the epitome of
Urban Decay.

607
00:34:20,300 –> 00:34:22,699
So like the my God, it looks
like Berlin.

608
00:34:22,699 –> 00:34:26,000
I’m yeah, well, I was that was
New York in the 70s and 80s.

609
00:34:26,000 –> 00:34:27,600
It was especially honks.
Yeah.

610
00:34:27,699 –> 00:34:31,100
And he’s talking to her, it’s
like he’s criminalizing the poor

611
00:34:31,100 –> 00:34:33,900
as well, you know, like he’s
talking to her like heshes.

612
00:34:34,300 –> 00:34:36,300
Oh yeah, let’s welcome to
America.

613
00:34:36,300 –> 00:34:39,300
We can that that’s a whole other
documentary.

614
00:34:39,300 –> 00:34:40,900
Criminalizing the poor in
General.

615
00:34:40,900 –> 00:34:43,199
But you’re doing a great job
braiding.

616
00:34:43,199 –> 00:34:46,199
A lot of these issues together
with this, with this one time.

617
00:34:46,199 –> 00:34:48,699
It’s a lot.
Yeah, it’s a lot that’s why it’s

618
00:34:49,000 –> 00:34:54,100
I mean there is it was a fast?
Yeah, it’s a fascinating era.

619
00:34:55,900 –> 00:34:57,300
I don’t know if that’s the right
way to say it.

620
00:34:57,800 –> 00:35:00,300
No, it’s yeah.
It’s is fasting.

621
00:35:00,300 –> 00:35:05,500
I feel like the American
government in general from the

622
00:35:05,500 –> 00:35:09,400
end of World War Two through
like, at least the mid 80s is

623
00:35:09,700 –> 00:35:12,100
fascinating.
A really bad way.

624
00:35:12,400 –> 00:35:16,900
It’s almost like a true crime
thing where if you dig into it,

625
00:35:16,900 –> 00:35:20,800
you’re just kind of marveling at
the achievements of Master

626
00:35:20,800 –> 00:35:23,300
criminals.
Like, there’s nothing, wait,

627
00:35:23,300 –> 00:35:25,500
let’s not even a cold case.
We’re never going to bring them

628
00:35:25,500 –> 00:35:28,300
to justice.
It’s just like this is what this

629
00:35:28,300 –> 00:35:31,500
is what our government does.
I’ve always wondered if that is

630
00:35:31,500 –> 00:35:36,300
why we have our fascination with
organized crime and the mafia

631
00:35:36,300 –> 00:35:39,100
and just this subconscious
understanding that we’re

632
00:35:39,100 –> 00:35:42,400
watching something else play A
out, it’s a way to project the

633
00:35:42,400 –> 00:35:45,400
way we deal with the rest of
American politics, you know?

634
00:35:45,600 –> 00:35:47,900
There’s that group, there’s that
great line in The Godfather

635
00:35:47,900 –> 00:35:50,400
work.
A is like, you know, it’s so and

636
00:35:50,400 –> 00:35:52,800
so’s working with politicians,
not murderers.

637
00:35:52,800 –> 00:35:56,800
And Michael says, you know,
who’s being naive now, okay, you

638
00:35:56,800 –> 00:36:00,700
know, it’s just, it’s so, it’s
so fascinating and that’s,

639
00:36:00,700 –> 00:36:03,300
that’s all governments in my
opinion, to a certain degree,

640
00:36:03,300 –> 00:36:07,000
but we were on, we were we were
on one for a while there.

641
00:36:07,000 –> 00:36:10,400
I mean, we really oh yeah, I’m
glad that stopped.

642
00:36:10,900 –> 00:36:11,900
My dad.
It’s over.

643
00:36:11,900 –> 00:36:14,400
I’m glad we’re done.
Yeah, I’m glad our government is

644
00:36:14,400 –> 00:36:17,300
so much better now.
That’s holy, it’s all better.

645
00:36:17,400 –> 00:36:22,300
There’s, there’s an kind of an
inciting incident that happens

646
00:36:22,300 –> 00:36:26,000
in this documentary where I
mean, it happened in the world,

647
00:36:26,200 –> 00:36:29,200
but there’s an armored truck
robbery and three.

648
00:36:29,200 –> 00:36:34,000
People are killed and the
government or the authorities.

649
00:36:34,200 –> 00:36:37,800
However, you want to say it
blame this on leftist activists,

650
00:36:37,900 –> 00:36:40,400
and I have two questions about
that.

651
00:36:40,500 –> 00:36:42,800
At one point.
Do you think they were really

652
00:36:43,000 –> 00:36:45,000
that deeply involved in this
crime?

653
00:36:45,100 –> 00:36:48,200
The people who were accused of
it and two can you just talk a

654
00:36:48,207 –> 00:36:51,200
little bit about what happened
after that?

655
00:36:51,200 –> 00:36:55,300
Well, it’s a very complicated
case.

656
00:36:55,300 –> 00:37:00,000
So I’ll just speak to.
So basically in 1981 there was

657
00:37:00,000 –> 00:37:03,600
the it’s been like a famous
Brinks armored truck robbery.

658
00:37:03,900 –> 00:37:08,000
There were people who a few
people arrested on the scene who

659
00:37:08,000 –> 00:37:10,400
were members of The Weather
Underground.

660
00:37:10,600 –> 00:37:15,300
And the Black Liberation Army,
the Black Panthers and there was

661
00:37:15,600 –> 00:37:19,000
when the government laid
basically accused dr.

662
00:37:19,000 –> 00:37:22,700
Mutulu Shakur being the
ringleader of this organized

663
00:37:22,700 –> 00:37:27,000
crime, this group of people.
And what I could say is with dr.

664
00:37:27,000 –> 00:37:30,900
Shakur, there was no evidence.
Connecting him to the scenes of

665
00:37:30,908 –> 00:37:33,600
the crime.
But they did have, they do have

666
00:37:33,600 –> 00:37:36,400
pamphlets with his finger,
political pamphlets with his

667
00:37:36,400 –> 00:37:38,900
fingerprints on it, that were
found in safe houses.

668
00:37:39,300 –> 00:37:43,400
So, they ledge that because all
these people were connected

669
00:37:43,400 –> 00:37:48,200
politically they say they said
this is an organized crime and

670
00:37:48,200 –> 00:37:50,900
then they charge them under the
RICO Act.

671
00:37:51,100 –> 00:37:55,700
And when you get charge of the
RICO Act, you don’t like it’s a

672
00:37:55,700 –> 00:37:58,500
lot of it as on, you don’t need
hard evidence.

673
00:37:58,500 –> 00:38:00,900
Like it’s like a really hard,
they’re really hard cases to

674
00:38:00,900 –> 00:38:06,600
fight and so mature.
They were all sentenced to

675
00:38:06,600 –> 00:38:09,400
lengthy.
Prison sentences, mutulu was

676
00:38:09,400 –> 00:38:14,500
sentenced to Sixty years.
And then a bunch of other people

677
00:38:14,500 –> 00:38:18,300
were also sentenced.
So, what we try and do is really

678
00:38:18,300 –> 00:38:22,900
just focus on, you know, like
why is this case political and

679
00:38:22,900 –> 00:38:27,400
how did the sentences measure in
terms of like the crime that’s

680
00:38:27,400 –> 00:38:30,700
been committed?
And, you know, like how much it

681
00:38:30,800 –> 00:38:33,800
are they being prosecuted for
their criminal actions because

682
00:38:33,800 –> 00:38:36,700
the government denies that
there’s any political prisoners.

683
00:38:36,900 –> 00:38:40,400
Yeah, I think there’s a thing
that you mentioned at the very

684
00:38:40,500 –> 00:38:44,100
very end of the documentary that
I think speaks to how much of a

685
00:38:44,100 –> 00:38:48,700
political prisoner he is, which
is that he’s been diagnosed with

686
00:38:48,700 –> 00:38:53,500
bone marrow, cancer and has been
denied compassionate release

687
00:38:53,500 –> 00:38:57,500
twice, that’s crazy.
That is absolutely crazy.

688
00:38:57,500 –> 00:39:01,900
Well, it’s like you know, now
with mass incarceration in the

689
00:39:02,900 –> 00:39:06,500
the problem of Elder elderlies
elderly people being

690
00:39:06,500 –> 00:39:09,600
incarcerated and by the FBI’s
own numbers.

691
00:39:10,600 –> 00:39:14,300
But individuals over 70.
There’s like a zero percent

692
00:39:14,300 –> 00:39:16,400
chance.
I think it is literally zero of

693
00:39:16,400 –> 00:39:19,000
recidivism, or like recommitting
crime.

694
00:39:19,000 –> 00:39:22,600
So, the idea is to, so it
doesn’t make sense why they

695
00:39:22,600 –> 00:39:27,200
would continue to encourage if
it wasn’t because of a for

696
00:39:27,200 –> 00:39:31,600
political reasons.
And the judge I just these are

697
00:39:31,600 –> 00:39:34,900
some things that I found out
about the American legal system

698
00:39:34,900 –> 00:39:38,200
that really surprised me was,
for instance, the parole board

699
00:39:38,200 –> 00:39:43,300
that he goes before.
Been the same people for years

700
00:39:43,300 –> 00:39:47,200
like he’s gone before the parole
board at the same people like

701
00:39:47,200 –> 00:39:49,400
four times or something.
I’m not sure exactly four times

702
00:39:49,400 –> 00:39:53,900
but many times and the judge who
was supposed to sign for his

703
00:39:54,000 –> 00:39:56,900
compassionate release is the
same judge that sentenced him in

704
00:39:56,900 –> 00:39:59,500
1986.
So this 91 year old judge hate

705
00:39:59,500 –> 00:40:02,000
who.
Wow, so it’s just like these

706
00:40:02,000 –> 00:40:03,500
things.
Like you’re like, why would you

707
00:40:03,500 –> 00:40:07,100
not, how can that be?
You know, like what it just

708
00:40:07,100 –> 00:40:10,900
doesn’t feel fair that you would
ask that the Senate, Since in

709
00:40:10,900 –> 00:40:15,800
judge to I don’t need this part.
Make this decision.

710
00:40:15,800 –> 00:40:17,800
Wow, I don’t even know what to
say to that.

711
00:40:18,200 –> 00:40:21,100
It’s so discouraging to hear.
It’s very depressing.

712
00:40:21,300 –> 00:40:24,900
Yeah, it was for me.
It was almost the craziest thing

713
00:40:24,900 –> 00:40:27,500
in the documentary.
When I saw that it’s like how

714
00:40:27,500 –> 00:40:31,600
much more blatant can you be
that there’s more to this than

715
00:40:31,600 –> 00:40:37,800
just an armored truck robbery,
so go ahead site, but then

716
00:40:37,800 –> 00:40:40,400
another point to and then we
introduce Susan.

717
00:40:40,500 –> 00:40:43,900
Rosenberg in the documentary who
was also sentenced.

718
00:40:43,900 –> 00:40:46,800
I love her.
Yeah, she’s a she’s, I mean,

719
00:40:46,800 –> 00:40:50,500
she’s a cool lady.
Oh my god, when you see her in

720
00:40:50,500 –> 00:40:54,100
the documentary, she’s so
soft-spoken and petite and like,

721
00:40:54,400 –> 00:40:56,600
you know, she’s such a kind
loving person and she was

722
00:40:56,600 –> 00:41:00,800
considered one of the America’s
most dangerous fugitives at one

723
00:41:00,800 –> 00:41:06,800
time when she was around.
So it’s like she talks about so

724
00:41:06,800 –> 00:41:10,300
when she was actually she was
indicted under the same crew.

725
00:41:10,500 –> 00:41:14,300
Paces mature to Lou.
But then they caught her on a

726
00:41:14,300 –> 00:41:16,900
different, they charge you with
a different crime and then once

727
00:41:16,900 –> 00:41:19,200
they charged her with a
different crime, they dropped

728
00:41:19,200 –> 00:41:21,800
all the charges in relation to
mutulu, which sort of speaks to

729
00:41:21,800 –> 00:41:24,100
the lack of evidence, right?
Yeah.

730
00:41:24,900 –> 00:41:28,400
Grace case.
So it’s, it’s a very complicated

731
00:41:28,400 –> 00:41:31,200
thing to talk about and the
reason why I don’t go into

732
00:41:31,200 –> 00:41:34,300
detail because it’s, you know
it’s yeah.

733
00:41:34,300 –> 00:41:38,100
It’s just it’s very you know,
it’s not what your focus was it

734
00:41:38,100 –> 00:41:39,600
could it that’s its own
documentary.

735
00:41:39,600 –> 00:41:42,800
I mean that really See, that
could be its own to our

736
00:41:42,800 –> 00:41:45,200
conversation, it, right?
Yeah.

737
00:41:45,200 –> 00:41:48,800
There’s so much to impart unpack
in terms of the history.

738
00:41:48,900 –> 00:41:51,800
Sure it’s just it’s hard to just
sum it up.

739
00:41:52,200 –> 00:41:57,200
So the government got really
involved in shutting this

740
00:41:57,200 –> 00:42:01,500
program down, were you ever
worried that they would somehow

741
00:42:01,500 –> 00:42:04,100
intervene to try and shut this
documentary down?

742
00:42:04,200 –> 00:42:09,500
Or did you have any weird or
scary experiences along those

743
00:42:09,500 –> 00:42:12,200
lines?
I haven’t, but I have other, you

744
00:42:12,200 –> 00:42:15,700
know, it’s mostly when I would
speak to the contemporaries of

745
00:42:15,700 –> 00:42:19,200
mutulu like a lot of the people
who I interviewed did not want

746
00:42:19,200 –> 00:42:22,300
to speak on the phone, you know,
there was you could a lot of

747
00:42:22,300 –> 00:42:25,400
people it’s more in my
interactions with people from

748
00:42:25,400 –> 00:42:29,900
who have been victim victims of
cointelpro and who lived through

749
00:42:29,900 –> 00:42:34,500
that type of surveillance who
you know, told me stories.

750
00:42:34,500 –> 00:42:39,700
Luckily I may be on some some
list I don’t know but nothing I

751
00:42:39,700 –> 00:42:42,500
haven’t felt Not any.
I haven’t experienced any

752
00:42:42,700 –> 00:42:44,600
anything directly.
That’s good.

753
00:42:44,600 –> 00:42:47,000
That’s, that’s the answer, we
want family.

754
00:42:47,100 –> 00:42:52,900
So, yeah, sometime I really do
wonder sometimes, if the FBI,

755
00:42:52,900 –> 00:42:56,800
and the CIA are just so cocky
about having gotten away with

756
00:42:56,800 –> 00:42:59,900
stuff like this, like, what’s
anyone ever going to do?

757
00:42:59,900 –> 00:43:03,500
We’re not going to bring the FBI
to Justice over this.

758
00:43:03,500 –> 00:43:06,300
So, like, are there any threats
anymore?

759
00:43:06,300 –> 00:43:07,800
When it comes to stuff like
this?

760
00:43:07,800 –> 00:43:10,300
Like, what’s anyone going to do?
Well, I think what’s cool?

761
00:43:10,500 –> 00:43:14,200
Like with the release of Judas
and the black Messiah and you

762
00:43:14,200 –> 00:43:18,900
know, like there is a lot of
talk right now about cointelpro.

763
00:43:18,900 –> 00:43:21,600
I think there was a friend of
mine sent me an article last

764
00:43:21,600 –> 00:43:24,500
year that even before the
release is still in Teen Vogue

765
00:43:24,500 –> 00:43:27,800
where they were talking about,
they had talked it like talked

766
00:43:27,800 –> 00:43:31,800
about cointelpro, so it’s quite
know people really acknowledge

767
00:43:31,900 –> 00:43:33,900
it.
Now when I first start even when

768
00:43:33,900 –> 00:43:36,200
I first started doing this
documentary, some of my friends

769
00:43:36,200 –> 00:43:38,900
were like, right, you know, like
sounds like they thought it was

770
00:43:38,900 –> 00:43:42,300
kind of conspiracy.
Very, but it’s actually real

771
00:43:42,300 –> 00:43:43,400
lava.
It’s yeah.

772
00:43:43,400 –> 00:43:45,000
Yeah.
His work ground.

773
00:43:45,300 –> 00:43:48,400
And, you know, the activists the
anti-war activist found the

774
00:43:48,400 –> 00:43:52,700
papers and Media Pennsylvania
exposing cointelpro like this

775
00:43:52,700 –> 00:43:55,900
was real like there’s you know,
we don’t know the scope, we

776
00:43:55,900 –> 00:43:59,800
don’t know all the details.
But yeah that that actually

777
00:43:59,800 –> 00:44:03,400
brings up another question which
is kind of a more general

778
00:44:03,400 –> 00:44:06,200
question.
Which is what are your thoughts

779
00:44:06,300 –> 00:44:10,200
on the term conspiracy theory?
Because the the reason I asked

780
00:44:10,500 –> 00:44:15,200
Is things like MK Ultra
cointelpro like even after

781
00:44:15,200 –> 00:44:18,100
Jonestown there were people in
the government who were like did

782
00:44:18,100 –> 00:44:20,200
the CIA do that?
It’s very weird.

783
00:44:20,200 –> 00:44:25,600
But now we’ve seen to come out
this other end now we’re

784
00:44:25,800 –> 00:44:29,800
anything that’s labeled a
conspiracy theory is just kind

785
00:44:29,800 –> 00:44:33,900
of immediately discredited and I
feel like things like your

786
00:44:33,900 –> 00:44:37,600
documentary are proof.
That we shouldn’t be that quick.

787
00:44:37,600 –> 00:44:42,600
Like and understand I’m not like
Eating for Q&A on or Sandy Hook

788
00:44:42,600 –> 00:44:46,900
or anything like that, but we
know our government does bad

789
00:44:46,900 –> 00:44:51,800
things all the time.
And what are your thoughts on I

790
00:44:51,800 –> 00:44:54,000
guess?
Kind of the demonization of the

791
00:44:54,000 –> 00:44:56,800
term conspiracy theory.
I mean I’ve never really thought

792
00:44:56,800 –> 00:45:00,600
of it but it’s in that way.
But it’s my experience that when

793
00:45:00,600 –> 00:45:05,300
I was first pitching this film
which was like, I guess the

794
00:45:05,300 –> 00:45:08,700
first time I was starting
pitching this 2014 or 2015,

795
00:45:09,000 –> 00:45:12,600
there was some people who Were
like, I sort of tone down the

796
00:45:12,600 –> 00:45:15,700
cointelpro, like I had to be
careful with how I pitched it

797
00:45:15,700 –> 00:45:19,300
because of that like I think as
soon as it starts, somebody even

798
00:45:19,300 –> 00:45:22,300
suggest that it sounds like a
conspiracy theory Suddenly It’s

799
00:45:22,300 –> 00:45:27,500
like questionable, you know,
like people are suddenly open to

800
00:45:27,500 –> 00:45:33,300
doubt in a way but like things
like MKUltra, I went to a press

801
00:45:33,300 –> 00:45:36,700
release a few years ago here for
the hospital.

802
00:45:36,700 –> 00:45:39,100
The McGill hospital that where
they were treating where they

803
00:45:39,100 –> 00:45:43,500
were Do it.
There was some victims from lots

804
00:45:43,500 –> 00:45:48,500
of MKUltra stuff in Montreal the
hospital and speaking about it.

805
00:45:48,500 –> 00:45:51,600
And then just to see there’s a
class action suit that’s going

806
00:45:51,600 –> 00:45:56,500
on finally years later.
I mean, I think it’s it’s a

807
00:45:56,508 –> 00:46:00,800
label that can really, you know,
like it can serve the

808
00:46:00,800 –> 00:46:04,900
misinformation and to distract
people from the truth.

809
00:46:05,100 –> 00:46:08,900
Yeah, so it’s It’s Tricky.
It’s a tricky thing.

810
00:46:08,900 –> 00:46:10,800
Yeah, it really it really.
Is.

811
00:46:10,800 –> 00:46:14,800
Yeah, but I also feel like
there’s this giant swath of,

812
00:46:15,100 –> 00:46:17,900
particularly Americans that
because things are labeled a

813
00:46:17,908 –> 00:46:21,100
conspiracy, they also
immediately believe them, okay?

814
00:46:21,300 –> 00:46:26,000
Yeah, I mean both of us, I feel
like I’ve said before, on this

815
00:46:26,000 –> 00:46:29,200
podcast I feel like both of
those reactions are not

816
00:46:29,200 –> 00:46:32,800
necessarily healthy.
Like you can’t believe every

817
00:46:32,800 –> 00:46:36,200
conspiracy theory but also you
can’t trust the government

818
00:46:36,200 –> 00:46:39,600
enough to believe that
everything that someone calls a

819
00:46:39,600 –> 00:46:42,200
conspiracy A theory is a
conspiracy theory.

820
00:46:42,200 –> 00:46:45,700
Like the Iraq, war is a
conspiracy theory.

821
00:46:45,700 –> 00:46:49,100
We went there based on weapons
of mass destruction that didn’t

822
00:46:49,100 –> 00:46:51,300
exist but they knew weren’t
there.

823
00:46:51,600 –> 00:46:54,700
When the police cover-up a
police shooting, it’s a

824
00:46:54,707 –> 00:47:01,000
conspiracy theory like it’s not
that uncommon and it really like

825
00:47:01,000 –> 00:47:05,100
I hate that things like this
ever get labeled as a conspiracy

826
00:47:05,100 –> 00:47:08,400
theory because I’m assuming
there’s probably documents about

827
00:47:08,400 –> 00:47:10,200
this that have been
Declassified.

828
00:47:10,700 –> 00:47:13,300
Like the information is out
there.

829
00:47:13,500 –> 00:47:16,000
Like I think I think the other
thing that would be interesting

830
00:47:16,000 –> 00:47:19,600
to see from and maybe you got a
little bit more information on

831
00:47:19,600 –> 00:47:23,700
this in your process Mia.
But just how many other kinds of

832
00:47:23,900 –> 00:47:27,800
community-based efforts of
socialized medicine have been

833
00:47:27,900 –> 00:47:31,800
shut down one way or another,
you know, it was it just this

834
00:47:31,800 –> 00:47:34,600
one where there I mean was it
just convenient and it happened

835
00:47:34,600 –> 00:47:36,300
to be connected to the Black
Panthers.

836
00:47:36,300 –> 00:47:38,300
You know what I’m saying?
Like, I’m just curious if there

837
00:47:38,300 –> 00:47:41,800
were other clinics around the
country, Things like this that

838
00:47:41,900 –> 00:47:44,200
had that much effort to be shut
down.

839
00:47:44,700 –> 00:47:49,200
I mean, I don’t, I don’t have
like, like specific facts, but I

840
00:47:49,200 –> 00:47:53,400
mean, we do know that the Black
Panthers were neutralized or

841
00:47:53,400 –> 00:47:56,100
stopped.
Yeah, programs there.

842
00:47:56,100 –> 00:47:58,600
Yeah, you know, the pro, but
they, and then this.

843
00:47:58,700 –> 00:48:03,800
And then this the United States
started to serve free breakfast,

844
00:48:03,800 –> 00:48:06,900
programs in their schools, you
know, like in public schools

845
00:48:06,900 –> 00:48:10,600
after the Panthers did it, the
Black Panthers were also the The

846
00:48:10,600 –> 00:48:14,200
first to do to have daycare
centers in New England.

847
00:48:14,300 –> 00:48:17,300
It’s wild.
I was raised told the Black

848
00:48:17,300 –> 00:48:20,000
Panthers were only criminals.
That’s what I was told growing

849
00:48:20,000 –> 00:48:23,200
up.
I mean that’s just flat-out what

850
00:48:23,200 –> 00:48:27,900
I was told and then I saw
Forrest Gump.

851
00:48:28,000 –> 00:48:32,100
And and then later in college
somebody finally was like, hmm.

852
00:48:32,100 –> 00:48:35,100
You need to spend a little bit
more time on this topic, and I

853
00:48:35,100 –> 00:48:41,300
was shocked by, how wrong I, you
know, had been And had been,

854
00:48:41,900 –> 00:48:46,700
it’s just sad to think about
actually another part of the

855
00:48:46,700 –> 00:48:50,400
cointelpro program that was so
effective.

856
00:48:50,500 –> 00:48:53,400
Was the misinformation that they
like the stories, they would

857
00:48:53,400 –> 00:48:57,700
leak to the Press.
They actually made a the CIA, or

858
00:48:58,100 –> 00:49:03,500
the FBI or CIA made a fake
coloring book that they said was

859
00:49:03,500 –> 00:49:08,200
a black panther coloring book
that to promote to give the

860
00:49:08,200 –> 00:49:11,700
impression that the Black
Panthers were anti white.

861
00:49:11,700 –> 00:49:15,200
And so it’s you can look at it
online but it’s like this

862
00:49:15,200 –> 00:49:18,800
terrifying coloring book.
That’s really not surprised.

863
00:49:18,800 –> 00:49:20,500
And it was this, you know, they
didn’t.

864
00:49:20,500 –> 00:49:23,600
So they were, they went to Great
Lengths to make a lot of these

865
00:49:23,600 –> 00:49:27,400
groups at here, like dangerous
criminals, so that the community

866
00:49:27,400 –> 00:49:29,500
would turn against them because
they knew they couldn’t just go

867
00:49:29,500 –> 00:49:32,500
and arrest them for for, you
know, having giving it free

868
00:49:32,500 –> 00:49:35,300
breakfast, they had to, you
know, give them like this.

869
00:49:35,500 –> 00:49:40,100
They had to create tension and
divide them fear and fear.

870
00:49:40,100 –> 00:49:42,500
So, It’s like when you really
start looking into it, you’re

871
00:49:42,500 –> 00:49:46,000
like the resources that went
into this, you know they must

872
00:49:46,000 –> 00:49:48,800
have had like artists on split.
Just everyone they had like

873
00:49:48,800 –> 00:49:52,100
artists on stuff like doing this
and it’s really disturbing and

874
00:49:52,100 –> 00:49:57,000
why would it stop completely.
Yeah that I feel like it hasn’t

875
00:49:57,000 –> 00:49:59,900
stopped and people know it
hasn’t stopped, there’s things

876
00:49:59,900 –> 00:50:03,400
like in New York we know the
NYPD was running.

877
00:50:03,400 –> 00:50:07,000
Something called The Wrap Squad
that was just tasked with

878
00:50:07,000 –> 00:50:09,100
following wrappers around the
city.

879
00:50:09,100 –> 00:50:13,400
Like that’s not Any different
that is the exact same thing and

880
00:50:13,400 –> 00:50:17,000
we hear it now and we’re like,
oh, that’s funny.

881
00:50:17,000 –> 00:50:19,500
Like if the nypd’s following
rappers?

882
00:50:19,800 –> 00:50:23,200
No, that’s cointelpro still
carrying on like, it’s the exact

883
00:50:23,200 –> 00:50:26,900
same thing and I feel like we’ve
just gotten kind of desensitized

884
00:50:26,900 –> 00:50:30,800
to the idea that the government
is always watching and they’re

885
00:50:30,800 –> 00:50:34,300
always, especially watching
people of color and we pretend

886
00:50:34,300 –> 00:50:36,500
like, we hate it but what do we
do about it now?

887
00:50:36,600 –> 00:50:38,900
Yeah, it’s true.
I mean, what do we do?

888
00:50:38,900 –> 00:50:41,400
What you’re doing something you
made a Documentary about it.

889
00:50:41,400 –> 00:50:44,200
So let me want to ask you just
from a practical standpoint.

890
00:50:44,200 –> 00:50:47,100
How long did it take you to put
this together because it’s so

891
00:50:47,100 –> 00:50:49,900
comprehensive?
I mean, I mean it, well when I

892
00:50:49,900 –> 00:50:54,400
first, when I first wrote
mutulu, it was in 2013 and then

893
00:50:54,400 –> 00:50:56,900
I was still finishing
deprogrammed and I started

894
00:50:56,900 –> 00:51:00,100
visiting him.
He was in, he was in a prison

895
00:51:00,100 –> 00:51:05,300
outside of LA but it took a good
like, 45 years to really since

896
00:51:05,300 –> 00:51:08,900
the first shoot and you know,
there’s always the process of

897
00:51:08,900 –> 00:51:12,500
like you you started A demo, you
get a little bit of funding to

898
00:51:12,500 –> 00:51:17,600
shoot and also, there was
originally dr.

899
00:51:17,600 –> 00:51:19,600
Shakur was supposed to be
released in 2016.

900
00:51:19,600 –> 00:51:22,300
So the original pitch of the
film was like mutulu’s.

901
00:51:22,300 –> 00:51:26,300
Going to get out, we’re going to
film him, wow, going back into

902
00:51:26,300 –> 00:51:28,800
the community and continuing his
work.

903
00:51:28,800 –> 00:51:33,300
But they government, he did not
get released, they kept him

904
00:51:33,300 –> 00:51:36,100
because there was a law that
before 1988.

905
00:51:36,100 –> 00:51:39,400
If you were sentenced to 60
years, you there was a mandatory

906
00:51:39,400 –> 00:51:41,900
parole.
They Change the rules, let’s say

907
00:51:42,100 –> 00:51:44,600
and they’re, they’re still, you
know, he didn’t get really.

908
00:51:44,600 –> 00:51:48,200
So at that point, I was like,
okay, well now what do I do?

909
00:51:48,200 –> 00:51:52,300
And I was so emotionally
invested in telling the story

910
00:51:52,300 –> 00:51:55,400
and then it became like, okay,
let’s approach it this way is

911
00:51:55,400 –> 00:52:00,200
more of like a, you know, a bit
of a different angle on, like,

912
00:52:00,300 –> 00:52:03,100
focusing on the political class.
How we’re making trying to find

913
00:52:03,100 –> 00:52:05,700
a way to keep me to, as the
center of the film without

914
00:52:05,700 –> 00:52:08,000
having any access to him.
Because they would not Grant

915
00:52:08,000 –> 00:52:11,000
him, he wasn’t allowed to, we
try to get into Views with him.

916
00:52:11,100 –> 00:52:15,700
Wow, Ben give given, he hasn’t
been granted permission to do an

917
00:52:15,700 –> 00:52:19,000
interview since 2003 which again
is cloud.

918
00:52:19,400 –> 00:52:23,700
You know, it’s like a political
thing to yeah, that that very

919
00:52:23,700 –> 00:52:27,400
much speaks to him being more
than just a prisoner, he’s a

920
00:52:27,600 –> 00:52:30,600
political prisoner, like,
there’s no, like, we let

921
00:52:30,700 –> 00:52:33,900
criminals talk about their
crimes all the time on True

922
00:52:33,900 –> 00:52:36,600
Crime shows and I know how to
book them.

923
00:52:36,800 –> 00:52:38,800
Yeah, yeah.
There’s there’s an obvious

924
00:52:38,800 –> 00:52:41,800
reason why he was Allowed to be
interviewed for this.

925
00:52:42,400 –> 00:52:43,700
Yeah.
And that’s again.

926
00:52:43,700 –> 00:52:47,300
This is all yeah, like, speaking
to the, you know, this what it

927
00:52:47,300 –> 00:52:49,600
means to be a political prisoner
and how they treat political

928
00:52:49,600 –> 00:52:53,400
prisoners differently, like
Susan a lot of these prisoners

929
00:52:53,900 –> 00:52:57,300
people who are in the film where
in held an ice in solitary

930
00:52:57,300 –> 00:53:01,300
confinement for years.
Whoa you know, separate it from

931
00:53:01,300 –> 00:53:04,700
the population, that’s a thing.
I feel like in the United

932
00:53:04,700 –> 00:53:06,500
States, we pretend we don’t
have.

933
00:53:06,600 –> 00:53:10,000
We pretend we don’t have
political prisoners.

934
00:53:10,300 –> 00:53:15,000
And we very obviously do and I
appreciate that this documentary

935
00:53:15,600 –> 00:53:18,600
shed some light on things like
that.

936
00:53:18,600 –> 00:53:22,500
Like, it’s not like we know, I
feel like a lot of people know,

937
00:53:22,500 –> 00:53:25,400
the government really crack down
on the Black Panthers and what

938
00:53:25,400 –> 00:53:29,400
not, but I think people feel
like that’s ended and it clearly

939
00:53:29,400 –> 00:53:32,500
hasn’t.
And I thank you for doing this

940
00:53:32,500 –> 00:53:37,200
documentary, it’s really great
last question, where can people

941
00:53:37,200 –> 00:53:39,700
watch it?
And where can people find out

942
00:53:39,700 –> 00:53:42,100
more?
Your other work and do you have

943
00:53:42,100 –> 00:53:44,600
any final thoughts?
The film is available.

944
00:53:44,600 –> 00:53:48,200
The document is available for
free in the US on Vice.

945
00:53:48,500 –> 00:53:51,800
It’s short list.
Dot vice.com well, which well

946
00:53:51,800 –> 00:53:53,300
link to it also.
Okay.

947
00:53:53,300 –> 00:53:57,700
And I encourage everyone to
check out mutulu Shakur.com with

948
00:53:57,700 –> 00:54:02,200
it, which is a website run by
his family and friends as

949
00:54:02,200 –> 00:54:04,700
support team.
And there was updates constant.

950
00:54:04,700 –> 00:54:07,800
There’s there’s always updates
on his health and the case and

951
00:54:07,800 –> 00:54:09,900
you know calls to action for
help.

952
00:54:10,000 –> 00:54:11,400
Yeah.
I mean there’s we can check out

953
00:54:11,400 –> 00:54:15,900
other documentaries.
Bye-bye me at, I still film.com

954
00:54:15,900 –> 00:54:21,600
and I’m now a editing a
medium-length film about a cult.

955
00:54:21,600 –> 00:54:27,500
I met that live in the desert in
Hemet, California all man, been

956
00:54:27,500 –> 00:54:30,200
filming for a few years.
I met them while shooting

957
00:54:30,200 –> 00:54:32,400
deprogrammed.
Oh, wow.

958
00:54:32,800 –> 00:54:37,100
So what that makes that checks
out, did you visit the iconic

959
00:54:37,100 –> 00:54:39,000
Hemet maze Stone while you were
there?

960
00:54:39,200 –> 00:54:43,400
I didn’t.
I it’s a ridiculous Monument.

961
00:54:43,400 –> 00:54:46,800
Don’t it’s not don’t go.
Yeah, don’t don’t do that.

962
00:54:46,900 –> 00:54:49,500
It’s I missed it.
Nope, you didn’t miss it.

963
00:54:49,500 –> 00:54:52,100
You are just didn’t see it.
Going.

964
00:54:53,000 –> 00:54:53,900
I’m sorry.
Go on.

965
00:54:54,400 –> 00:54:57,800
So yeah that’s what I’m doing
now and I’m working on a couple

966
00:54:57,800 –> 00:55:00,100
fiction.
First fiction project.

967
00:55:00,300 –> 00:55:03,900
Oh wow.
Oh that’s so exciting.

968
00:55:04,000 –> 00:55:08,100
So that’s yeah.
Well thank you very much for

969
00:55:08,100 –> 00:55:11,000
doing the episode will link to
where people You can watch the

970
00:55:11,000 –> 00:55:12,600
documentary.
You should watch it.

971
00:55:13,100 –> 00:55:17,500
Really good Caitlin.
Do you have anything to any

972
00:55:17,500 –> 00:55:19,200
final thoughts before we get out
of here?

973
00:55:19,300 –> 00:55:23,800
Just didn’t me as really cool.
Adam egregious how cool she is.

974
00:55:23,800 –> 00:55:27,200
She’s also just very cool.
I would agree.

975
00:55:28,100 –> 00:55:32,500
I honestly I really cannot say
enough about how much I enjoyed

976
00:55:32,500 –> 00:55:35,400
this documentary.
A lot of times these are hard

977
00:55:35,400 –> 00:55:38,900
watches you know and they’re not
pleasant they’re just

978
00:55:39,000 –> 00:55:43,000
infuriating and I think I’m, I
think a lot of people are kind

979
00:55:43,000 –> 00:55:46,300
of tapped out right now, and
this doesn’t feel that way at

980
00:55:46,300 –> 00:55:47,200
all.
It’s cool.

981
00:55:47,200 –> 00:55:52,100
It’s interesting, everybody.
Super charismatic, and it is an

982
00:55:52,100 –> 00:55:53,800
unbelievable story.
Yeah.

983
00:55:53,800 –> 00:55:56,800
And that clip of Reagan alone is
worth seeing this thing.

984
00:55:56,800 –> 00:56:00,100
I hate.
It’s weirdly satisfying.

985
00:56:00,200 –> 00:56:02,200
It’s very validating.
It’s like yeah.

986
00:56:02,200 –> 00:56:05,500
See I knew it.
Yeah, you’re just like he is

987
00:56:05,500 –> 00:56:09,100
such an asshole.
Yeah, he really is in this.

988
00:56:09,100 –> 00:56:11,500
It’s like whatever.
Horrible man.

989
00:56:11,600 –> 00:56:14,400
Yes, like just going into
people’s neighborhoods and

990
00:56:14,400 –> 00:56:16,400
screaming at them for being in
that neighborhood.

991
00:56:16,400 –> 00:56:18,700
It’s wild.
Yeah that’s that’s what I want

992
00:56:18,700 –> 00:56:20,100
to plug before we get out of
here.

993
00:56:20,100 –> 00:56:22,800
Fuck Reagan.
Oh he was the worst.

994
00:56:23,500 –> 00:56:25,800
Yeah a great Caitlyn say Fuck
Reagan.

995
00:56:26,000 –> 00:56:29,200
Okay fuck Reagan, thank you.
All right we should get out of

996
00:56:29,207 –> 00:56:31,800
here.
Mia say goodbye!

997
00:56:31,900 –> 00:56:35,200
Thank you guys so much.
Thank you for doing it.

998
00:56:35,200 –> 00:56:37,300
We appreciate it.
Caitlyn say goodbye.

999
00:56:37,600 –> 00:56:39,900
Goodbye goodbye everybody.
We love you.