Conspiracy! The Show 306: The Real Jason Bourne

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I.
Hey everybody, welcome to

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Conspiracy the show.
I’m your host, Adam Todd Brown

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joining me as Co host this week.
Oh, my favorite Co host of all.

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No Co host, but I do have a
returning guest, author of the

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book Mind Games, The
Assassination of John Lennon.

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David Wieland’s here.
How’s it going, man?

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Hey.
Adam, how you doing?

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Nice to see you.
I am doing great and I am very

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excited to talk about what we
are talking about today, which

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in a nutshell is the
assassination of Democrat

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Congressman Alard Lowenstein.
Wasn’t a congressman at the

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time, but.
That’s right, yeah.

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Always fascinated when a
conspiracy crosses my desk that

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I have never heard of and I had
no prior knowledge of this at

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all.
How did this land on your radar?

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Good question.
After my Lenin assassination

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main investigation book was
done, I’ve been writing a lot of

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subsequent sub stack articles
about about the case.

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New information keep coming on
board and it’s it’s been an ever

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evolving thing never ending
thing for years now.

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Looking forward to doing
something else soon to be

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honest.
But I decided to look into

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whether there were any other MK
Ultra esque Manchurian Candidate

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esque assassinations around the
time of Lenin.

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We all know about the famous 60s
groupings.

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You know, it’s definitely a line
between JFKRFKMLK, no question

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about that.
Malcolm X as well.

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Put him in there.
Fred Hampton, all happening

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around that, that time.
Yeah, of sort of 5-6 years.

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But what about 1980s?
I thought we know about Reagan.

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That was a little bit later, you
know, similar, a lot of

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similarities at Hinckley.
Very similar, yeah.

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Yeah, disturbingly similar.
But I, I knew about Hinckley and

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I sort of added a bit about him
in my book, but I just thought

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maybe is this someone else that
I missed?

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And then I came across Aled
Lowenstein, who was, as you say,

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used to be a congressman,
Democrat guy, quite a

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heavyweight political guy.
I’ve done a lot of stuff at the

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UN, been around politics all his
life for a smart guy.

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But by the time he was
assassinated in March 1980, he

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was working for Ted Kennedy and
he was very much into gay rights

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and sort of gay affairs.
It was kind of a guy lived in

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the closet most of his life, got
married, didn’t Elton John then

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realized this is not for me.
And then, you know, near the end

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of his life, tragically started
to find himself and was quite

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openly dating men.
And, you know, he could have

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been a trailblazer actually for
the for the for the gay rights

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movement.
Sadly, that wasn’t meant to be,

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but what happened was someone he
knew called Dennis Sweeney, a

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guy that he was kind of
mentoring at Stanford, just

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walked into his office on March
14th, 1980 at the Rockefeller

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Plaza and shot him.
Police turned out arrested him.

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It seems a bit like the Mark
Chapman thing with Lennon, just

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an open and shut case kind of
thing.

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I thought, OK, I’ll start
looking into it because it’s a

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famous guy got shot near the
time.

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It’s strange that a guy just
walks into his office.

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Yeah, there are a lot of
similarities to the John Lennon

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assassination, especially the
part where he just sits and

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waits for the police to show up.
Yeah.

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That’s unusual.
Yeah, there’s, there’s lots of

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similarities.
There’s that he turns out very

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cold and sort of calculated and
and very calm, asks for this

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meeting, books it, walks into
Aled’s office, shuts the door

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and apparently 15 minutes later,
Aled’s secretary hears 2 pops.

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He says, oh, pops.
They weren’t, they weren’t

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gunshots, or at least she didn’t
think they were.

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And then she heard five
gunshots.

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Now, he did have a sudden
apparently had A7 bullet gun,

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but she thought the two pops
came from this infamous

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telephone installer who was
working in the office at the

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time.
Now, the fact that she thought

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the two pops came from the
telephone installer’s staple gun

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within Alex’s office means that
she probably thought that the

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telephone installer could be in
there at the same time because

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he’s obviously working around
the office at the time.

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So that’s kind of strange.
When she ran in to see what was

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going on, Dennis Sweeney walked
out, sat down, put his gun on

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the table and got out of
Winston’s cigarette and started

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smoking in a very calm, calm
fashion.

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Now, Aled Lowenstein’s secretary
knew that Aled Lowenstein knew

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Dennis Sweeney for a long time
because they were, they were

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constantly crossing paths
throughout their lives and and

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Aled Lowenstein’s secretary was
very close to Aled throughout

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his life.
So she knew all about Dennis

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Sweeney.
But when she went in to the

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office, Aled Lowenstein was
lying down on his stomach and he

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turned around and said to her,
did they get the guy who did it?

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Which is a very strange thing
for Allard to say.

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Because he had known Dennis
Sweeney for a long time.

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So if Dennis Sweeney was the one
who shot him, he probably

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wouldn’t say, did you get the
guy who did it?

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Yeah, very strange, that very
strange thing to say.

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And Dennis then, you know, was
sitting out there under Winston

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and apparently, according to the
telephone installer, who was

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never identified in the
newspapers, he was always just

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the telephone installer.
But he had a lot to say about

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the murder to the newspapers.
He said that the gun was taken

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away with a handkerchief before
the cops got there.

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So you’ve got an almost
identical Mark Chapman John

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Lennon thing where a guy walks
in, shoots someone very

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strangely, comes out, drops his
gun, waits for the cops calmly,

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and then the gun is taken away
before the cops get there.

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It’s it’s, it’s a dry run
almost.

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It’s absolutely bizarre.
Yeah, it is striking how similar

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these two shootings are.
And it is rife with coincidences

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like how the office building
where this happened, there was

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apparently a sort of CIA
connected law firm in that

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building.
Is that right?

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That’s right.
Donovan, Newton, Irving and

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Leisure were operating out of 30
Rockefeller Plaza at the time

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and they are the law firm that
that gave Mark Chapman’s

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attorney, second attorney,
private attorney, the guy who

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never should have got the got
get the gig.

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They gave him one of their
employees to help him when he

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was working on the Chapman case.
You know, I don’t know where

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your coincidence threshold is,
Adam, but that one starts to

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push mine a bit too high near
the red zone.

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But, you know, and then, of
course, these two guys then

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starts putting people like
Milton Klein, who just happens

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to be the head of the Manchurian
Candidate assassination program

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for the CIA.
Again, coincidence.

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Red zone pushing up there on the
on the barometer.

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But yeah, they were in the same
building.

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So it’s a very cozy menu.
This 30 Rockefeller Plaza,

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literally six months later,
Jonathan Marks was also working

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in there, this second lawyer
that was working to Chapman.

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And he obviously went across the
corridor or up or up and down

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the stairs and asked Donovan
Ledger if they could give him

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one of their guys to help him on
the on the Lennon Chapman case.

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So yeah, all very cozy, all very
Rockefeller Plaza.

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And another name popped up when
I was reading your article that

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I recognized just from I’m
looking into Jonestown and I’m

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wondering if you know if there’s
any connection between Robert

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Layton, who was a lawyer at this
law firm, who there’s a quote

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where he says he asked Sweeney
if he had a gun.

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And that Sweeney, that’s right.
I’m not armed anymore.

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The Layton, there’s, there’s AI.
Don’t know how much you’ve

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looked into Jonestown, but.
A bit mainly through your

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excellent work actually.
Yeah, everyone aside from Jim

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Jones, who kind of built and
founded Jonestown, came from one

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CIA connected family, the Layton
family.

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And what a weird coincidence
that a Layton would pop up in

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this.
I don’t know if they’re related,

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but.
I would not be surprised.

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But yeah, I didn’t look into
this.

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Robert later was, I mean, he
was, he was there.

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He was quoted in the newspaper,
as you know, describing the

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scene afterwards.
So again, it’s all very cozy and

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all very strange.
And, and to be honest with you,

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Adam, I thought that was the end
of it.

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I thought, OK, it’s it’s there’s
a lot of coincidences here.

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The police came and arrested
him.

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He was taken away, obviously to
be assessed. 4 old Allard was

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rushed to a local hospital.
They did the same thing with

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John Lennon and they tried to
pump his heart, but they

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couldn’t save him and he died.
So Allard was not going to say

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anything more apart from, you
know, did they get the guy who

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did?
It was pretty much his last

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words.
So I just kind of thought what,

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why?
Why go for Ellen Lowenstein?

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You know, he was, you know, he
was working for Ted Kennedy, but

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he was a bit of, I think a low
hanging fruit at the time.

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I would say he wasn’t really a
top guy for Ted Kennedy out at

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last at that point.
So I, I sort of, I couldn’t

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really find a motive.
So I thought, OK, what I need to

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do here is, is to look into who
Dennis Sweeney was.

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You know, I’m trying work my way
backwards with him.

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And when I started to look into
Dennis Sweeney, these other

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characters just started to come
out.

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And then one character who I’m
sure we’re going to discuss

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shortly, just it started to loom
very large.

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And it was almost like a kind of
Forrest Gump guy who just had

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this incredible crazy career at
the heart of, you know, the top

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government.
And he just sort of flip-flopped

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around and did these crazy
things and he was associated

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with all these crazy places.
And we’re talking about Peter

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Bourne.
I’m sure we’re going to get to

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shortly.
And, and I just thought this is

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going to, this is going way
deeper Adam than I ever thought

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it would because I thought this
is going to be a short article

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that’ll be finished in, I would
say 2, two weeks, maybe 3 weeks

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work.
It took me 6 months to do this

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because once I found out about
Peter Bourne and his associates,

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I just had to go deeper and
deeper and buy lots of books and

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do lots of research.
And the more I found out about

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this guy, the more I was just
shocked.

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Really, really shocked.
Yeah, we’ll get to it more at

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the end, but people might hear
Peter Bourne and think, oh, like

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Bourne Identity, exactly that.
Just that guy.

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Getting back to Dennis, he was
born in 43, father died in

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Korea.
Oh, you know, when he was a very

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young boy, he took on his
stepfather’s name, was pushed

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out to these boys ranches kind
of places when he was younger.

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So I think mum what couldn’t
really cope with him and

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stepfather probably didn’t want
him around, didn’t have a happy

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childhood, I don’t think.
Started to dabble in LSD and

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drugs when he was 15, very much
Chapmanesque.

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Started to get get into religion
deeply round about 1516.

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Very much Chapmanesque.
And he kind of, you know, he, he

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was looking always to sort of
find himself, which again, is

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classic Mark Chapman, a guy
who’s just not got a very strong

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identity.
And he came across out of

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Lowenstein.
Lowenstein is a completely

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different kind of fish.
He was born much earlier in 1928

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to an affluent Jewish family in
New York.

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And, you know, he’s, he was
always on a fast track to, you

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know, get a, have a career in
politics, lots of connections,

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no doubt through his family.
Fantastically charismatic.

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Apparently when he walked into a
room, the room just lit up and

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out of Lowenstein.
I think a lot of people were

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thinking he could be, you know,
possibly even a Democratic

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leader.
But unfortunately for Aled, he

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had this problem from back in
those days.

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00:11:00,600 –> 00:11:03,760
He was a gay man who was who was
hiding in hiding his sexuality.

216
00:11:03,880 –> 00:11:05,960
And I think that was probably
well known at the time.

217
00:11:06,080 –> 00:11:09,360
There was a lot of complaints
that he got too close to certain

218
00:11:09,640 –> 00:11:12,960
students at Stanford, which is
where he ended up teaching in

219
00:11:12,960 –> 00:11:15,280
the early 60s.
And that’s where he met Dennis

220
00:11:15,280 –> 00:11:17,000
Sweeney.
And the first thing Aled

221
00:11:17,000 –> 00:11:19,680
Lowenstein did to said to Dennis
Sweeney was, do you want to come

222
00:11:19,680 –> 00:11:22,160
out to Mississippi and work on
some civil rights movements and,

223
00:11:22,320 –> 00:11:24,200
you know, and some action groups
out there?

224
00:11:24,320 –> 00:11:26,760
And Dennis Sweeney said, yeah,
sure, I’d love to do that.

225
00:11:26,760 –> 00:11:30,520
And Dennis was very much
enamoured with this smooth

226
00:11:31,000 –> 00:11:34,720
urbane out of Lowenstein, who at
that point was already heavily

227
00:11:34,720 –> 00:11:37,240
into politics and was already
sort of on a fast track,

228
00:11:37,240 –> 00:11:40,360
apparently to a great political
career, which Sally didn’t

229
00:11:40,360 –> 00:11:43,360
happen for him.
So when just getting my dates

230
00:11:43,360 –> 00:11:46,240
right here.
So when Sweeney went down to

231
00:11:46,240 –> 00:11:49,080
Mississippi or was invited to
travel down there by Lowenstein

232
00:11:49,080 –> 00:11:51,560
to join the civil rights
movements, that’s where he met

233
00:11:51,560 –> 00:11:54,480
this woman called Mary King.
And Mary King, at the time, she

234
00:11:54,480 –> 00:11:58,800
wasn’t a leader of such, but she
was a very devoted civil rights

235
00:11:58,840 –> 00:12:01,800
activist at the time.
And apparently, according to

236
00:12:01,800 –> 00:12:04,000
everyone that sort of knew them
at the time, they quickly became

237
00:12:04,000 –> 00:12:06,000
an item.
And within a few months they got

238
00:12:06,000 –> 00:12:08,080
married, which was apparently to
everyone’s surprise.

239
00:12:08,080 –> 00:12:11,760
And this was right about 1965.
But he was having some problems

240
00:12:11,760 –> 00:12:13,680
down there.
Dennis there there was, believe

241
00:12:13,680 –> 00:12:17,080
it or not, a bomb that was
placed in his house, the civil

242
00:12:17,080 –> 00:12:21,280
rights activists house, by some
white nationalists that just

243
00:12:21,280 –> 00:12:23,520
literally blew the house apart.
It was all made of wood.

244
00:12:23,520 –> 00:12:26,480
And amazingly, he survived that.
But that must have really

245
00:12:26,480 –> 00:12:29,920
affected him quite badly.
And then he went to dinner with

246
00:12:29,920 –> 00:12:32,200
some local business people who
were kind of supporting the

247
00:12:32,200 –> 00:12:33,800
civil rights movement.
And they were at their house,

248
00:12:33,800 –> 00:12:36,400
was surrounded by white
nationalists who are all sort of

249
00:12:36,400 –> 00:12:38,360
threatening to kill him when he
came out.

250
00:12:38,680 –> 00:12:41,040
And then he started to get these
strange phone calls that came

251
00:12:41,040 –> 00:12:44,400
into the house, which seemed to
be from the FBI saying, you

252
00:12:44,400 –> 00:12:46,040
know, you’re in trouble, you
need to get out, but we’re not

253
00:12:46,040 –> 00:12:48,160
going to come and help you.
So I think there was probably a

254
00:12:48,160 –> 00:12:50,600
lot of paranoia going on down
there at the time.

255
00:12:50,680 –> 00:12:53,960
There was a lot of no doubt very
difficult work, very dangerous

256
00:12:53,960 –> 00:12:56,160
work.
I have to admire Mary and Dennis

257
00:12:56,160 –> 00:12:58,000
for doing it.
Incredibly brave to do it.

258
00:12:58,240 –> 00:12:59,920
Allard was not down there all
the time.

259
00:12:59,920 –> 00:13:03,640
He just popped in and out.
And one thing just to back up a

260
00:13:03,640 –> 00:13:07,800
little bit that we should
mention from the article, when

261
00:13:08,120 –> 00:13:12,880
Sweeney and Lowenstein meet at
Stanford, it’s at a time when

262
00:13:12,880 –> 00:13:16,760
there are 7 known MK Ultra
projects happening.

263
00:13:17,000 –> 00:13:18,920
There.
Yeah, yeah, just just eight

264
00:13:18,920 –> 00:13:21,280
years previously.
I think 55 was when it started

265
00:13:21,280 –> 00:13:25,120
and they met in 63.
So as you know, it wasn’t out

266
00:13:25,120 –> 00:13:28,240
until the mid 70s MK Ultra.
So there’s a pretty good chance

267
00:13:28,240 –> 00:13:30,760
that from 55 to 63 it was still
going on.

268
00:13:31,040 –> 00:13:33,960
So yeah, Stanford was an MK
Ultra hotbed and that’s that’s

269
00:13:34,040 –> 00:13:36,320
as you right, you rightly point
out, and it’s a very important

270
00:13:36,400 –> 00:13:40,480
point in this story to mention.
That and it’s those when we talk

271
00:13:40,480 –> 00:13:45,360
about the coincidences in this
story, that’s a big one, is

272
00:13:45,840 –> 00:13:48,600
people, as they’re moving
around, they’re kind of moving

273
00:13:48,600 –> 00:13:53,320
in the same way MK Ultra stuff
moves and where it’s at, these

274
00:13:53,320 –> 00:13:56,600
people are at, but just a
coincidence.

275
00:13:57,040 –> 00:13:58,760
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, you need to get your

276
00:13:58,760 –> 00:14:00,360
coincidence threshold down here,
Adam.

277
00:14:00,360 –> 00:14:03,400
I think it’s, you know, it’s too
high.

278
00:14:03,400 –> 00:14:06,960
Yeah, your bar’s too high.
But yeah, I think, yeah, that,

279
00:14:06,960 –> 00:14:08,640
that that’s a bit odd.
I mean, it’s going to get more

280
00:14:08,640 –> 00:14:11,920
odd when you talk about MK Ultra
facilities, especially when we

281
00:14:11,920 –> 00:14:14,760
talk about Peter Bourne.
I can’t wait to get into because

282
00:14:14,760 –> 00:14:16,200
he’s the real star of this
story.

283
00:14:16,200 –> 00:14:21,160
He just emerged as this
incredible Yeah, superstar of

284
00:14:21,360 –> 00:14:23,840
weirdness.
Let’s talk about him.

285
00:14:23,920 –> 00:14:27,440
His father served in a precursor
to MI 6.

286
00:14:27,840 –> 00:14:30,080
That’s right.
SOA, Special Operations

287
00:14:30,080 –> 00:14:32,120
Executive.
Yeah, that was the original MI

288
00:14:32,120 –> 00:14:33,760
6, just after the Second World
War.

289
00:14:33,760 –> 00:14:38,240
Which that’s always immediately
suspicious to me, because in my

290
00:14:38,240 –> 00:14:42,320
looking into the Ciai know they
love a family band.

291
00:14:42,480 –> 00:14:46,760
They I mean, that makes sense.
If you can get an entire family

292
00:14:46,760 –> 00:14:50,040
on that side, they’re going to
be easier to work with and use

293
00:14:50,040 –> 00:14:52,840
and manipulate.
So the fact that he has those

294
00:14:52,840 –> 00:14:56,120
intelligence ties makes me
automatically suspicious that

295
00:14:56,120 –> 00:14:59,160
Peter Bourne has those same
ties, yeah.

296
00:14:59,200 –> 00:15:02,440
I mean, Jeffrey Bourne, his
father, was a serious SOE dude.

297
00:15:02,440 –> 00:15:04,840
He was based in Malaysia, based
in the Far East.

298
00:15:04,840 –> 00:15:07,000
He was doing some very strange
things.

299
00:15:07,000 –> 00:15:09,600
Let me just get this right here.
What they were saying he was

300
00:15:09,600 –> 00:15:11,360
doing because it’s quite
sinister.

301
00:15:11,440 –> 00:15:14,720
He was in charge of biomedical
research with the special forces

302
00:15:14,720 –> 00:15:17,280
in Southeast Asia.
That just puts his chill out his

303
00:15:17,280 –> 00:15:19,760
spine.
There’s an interesting picture

304
00:15:19,760 –> 00:15:24,600
of him in your article because
it seems like he’s kind of, over

305
00:15:24,600 –> 00:15:28,040
the years, downplayed his
participation in Vietnam a

306
00:15:28,040 –> 00:15:30,240
little bit.
Oh, yeah, yeah, that’s Peter.

307
00:15:30,280 –> 00:15:31,800
That’s his son.
Oh, sure, sure.

308
00:15:32,200 –> 00:15:35,120
Jeffrey’s just as interesting as
Peter, but Jeffrey, because he’s

309
00:15:35,120 –> 00:15:37,880
because he’s old school, I think
he kept a lot of what he did

310
00:15:37,880 –> 00:15:40,360
under wraps.
Peter, God bless him, his son

311
00:15:40,360 –> 00:15:43,160
has got a bit of an ego, got a
bit of a massive ego, and he put

312
00:15:43,160 –> 00:15:45,640
a lot of stuff on his website.
He shouldn’t have put on his

313
00:15:45,640 –> 00:15:48,800
website, which is now a website
that’s been very quickly

314
00:15:48,800 –> 00:15:51,000
deleted, probably after I
emailed him.

315
00:15:51,000 –> 00:15:53,040
Actually, I shouldn’t have done
that, but I emailed him through

316
00:15:53,040 –> 00:15:55,720
the website and I and I had to
go through a process where it

317
00:15:55,720 –> 00:15:59,200
has to go to a sort of third
party to verify me, which is

318
00:15:59,200 –> 00:16:01,960
always very suspicious.
Yeah, that’s, that’s got

319
00:16:01,960 –> 00:16:04,040
intelligence all over it.
But I emailed saying that I’d

320
00:16:04,040 –> 00:16:05,160
like to talk to you about
certain things.

321
00:16:05,240 –> 00:16:07,160
I mentioned one of the
facilities that he worked in

322
00:16:07,160 –> 00:16:09,240
which we’ll get to in a minute,
which I think was probably a

323
00:16:09,240 –> 00:16:10,840
massive red flag in Peter
Bourne’s world.

324
00:16:11,440 –> 00:16:13,520
And within a few weeks of that
e-mail, his website was down.

325
00:16:13,520 –> 00:16:16,680
But good on way back machine.
You know, it’s it’s always there

326
00:16:16,680 –> 00:16:19,840
for you and it’s still there.
So thank goodness I could go

327
00:16:19,840 –> 00:16:22,360
back and find it.
But but yeah, just just to get

328
00:16:22,360 –> 00:16:25,320
back to to Peter.
Actually, before we do that, we

329
00:16:25,320 –> 00:16:27,920
should just finish off with Mary
King and Dennis Sweeney down in

330
00:16:27,920 –> 00:16:31,240
Mississippi with their marriage.
One really important thing

331
00:16:31,240 –> 00:16:32,760
happened there with Dennis and
Mary.

332
00:16:32,840 –> 00:16:35,680
Dennis went to the dentist.
Yes, very important point.

333
00:16:35,680 –> 00:16:37,360
We’ll get to how important that
is later.

334
00:16:37,360 –> 00:16:39,920
But he went to the dentist.
Mary was there was his wife, was

335
00:16:39,920 –> 00:16:41,360
his wife when they went to the
dentist.

336
00:16:41,600 –> 00:16:44,040
Whether she attending with him
or not we do not know, but that

337
00:16:44,040 –> 00:16:45,360
will become very important
later.

338
00:16:45,360 –> 00:16:48,320
So if your listeners can just
bear that in mind around about

339
00:16:48,320 –> 00:16:52,120
65 Dennis and Mary dentist
appointment, we’ll come back to

340
00:16:52,120 –> 00:16:54,280
it.
Very important, very important.

341
00:16:54,480 –> 00:16:57,440
So then what they do is they go
back to San Francisco.

342
00:16:58,280 –> 00:17:00,240
No, I don’t don’t know if Mary
went back to it’s not where she

343
00:17:00,240 –> 00:17:03,840
was from, but but that’s where
but Dennis went back and Mary

344
00:17:03,840 –> 00:17:05,920
went with him.
They got into some anti war

345
00:17:05,920 –> 00:17:08,319
stuff.
It was kind of 6667.

346
00:17:08,480 –> 00:17:10,680
No, no 66.
So you know, it was very much

347
00:17:10,680 –> 00:17:12,920
anti war at the time.
It was it was all kind of

348
00:17:12,920 –> 00:17:15,839
Vietnam and and you know, can
imagine the the sort of groups

349
00:17:15,839 –> 00:17:18,280
that they mingled in.
Dennis went back to Stanford

350
00:17:18,440 –> 00:17:21,800
again where where again,
obviously out of Lowesteem was

351
00:17:21,800 –> 00:17:24,720
around and this is where things
start to really go wrong for

352
00:17:24,720 –> 00:17:26,359
Dennis.
He started to hear voices.

353
00:17:26,359 –> 00:17:29,520
He started to take more drugs.
He started to see psychiatrists.

354
00:17:29,880 –> 00:17:33,000
He started to do the exact
things that Mark Chapman did

355
00:17:33,000 –> 00:17:36,440
when he was with Gloria Chapman,
exactly the same playbook.

356
00:17:36,440 –> 00:17:38,880
I’m starting to hear voices.
I’m starting to see various

357
00:17:38,880 –> 00:17:41,680
psychiatrists.
I believe I’m kind of falling

358
00:17:41,680 –> 00:17:44,000
apart.
Mary being Mary, being an

359
00:17:44,000 –> 00:17:48,120
incredibly ambitious young
woman, she wasn’t going to put

360
00:17:48,120 –> 00:17:51,120
up with this on since very long
and she divorced him in double

361
00:17:51,120 –> 00:17:53,840
QuickTime and kind of left him
at that point.

362
00:17:53,840 –> 00:17:57,640
So Dennis Sweeney was kind of
left adrift in San Francisco and

363
00:17:57,640 –> 00:17:59,960
we’ll come back to him later,
but that’s kind of the end of

364
00:17:59,960 –> 00:18:02,200
the Dennis Sweeney part of this
story.

365
00:18:02,280 –> 00:18:05,880
So Mary goes off and does some
strange things back in the

366
00:18:05,880 –> 00:18:08,360
South.
She marries another person, but

367
00:18:08,360 –> 00:18:11,040
she doesn’t say who.
So she’s got another mysterious

368
00:18:11,040 –> 00:18:13,720
second marriage that who knows
who that is, Could be another

369
00:18:13,720 –> 00:18:15,760
Dennis Sweeney, who knows?
Yeah.

370
00:18:15,880 –> 00:18:18,800
Then she starts Mary to get into
government, which surprised all

371
00:18:18,800 –> 00:18:20,120
of her friends.
She started to get into

372
00:18:20,120 –> 00:18:23,320
government and and sort of
health NGOs and there and she

373
00:18:23,320 –> 00:18:25,520
started to work for LBJ’s
administration.

374
00:18:25,520 –> 00:18:27,400
She started to work for Nixon’s
administration and all her

375
00:18:27,400 –> 00:18:28,480
friends.
Like how the hell did you get

376
00:18:28,480 –> 00:18:29,920
this gig, Mary?
You don’t know nothing about

377
00:18:29,920 –> 00:18:31,800
health.
You’re APR person pretty much

378
00:18:31,800 –> 00:18:33,680
back in Mississippi in the civil
rights days.

379
00:18:33,720 –> 00:18:36,360
But suddenly she seamlessly
moves into government.

380
00:18:36,360 –> 00:18:38,400
So we’ll leave Mary there for
now.

381
00:18:38,400 –> 00:18:41,920
So that’s Mary’s starting the
kind of government ladder climb.

382
00:18:41,920 –> 00:18:44,640
That’s kind of Mary’s position
where Dennis is over in San

383
00:18:44,640 –> 00:18:47,880
Francisco taking his LSD on his
cornflakes and seeing

384
00:18:47,880 –> 00:18:50,080
psychiatrists and starting to
hear voices in his head.

385
00:18:50,640 –> 00:18:53,600
So now, so let’s get to Peter,
good old Peter, the real

386
00:18:53,600 –> 00:18:56,080
fascinating character, if you
need another fascinating

387
00:18:56,080 –> 00:18:58,240
character in this story.
And Pete, I was just not

388
00:18:58,240 –> 00:19:00,920
expecting Peter born.
I, I, I only found Peter born

389
00:19:00,920 –> 00:19:02,720
through Mary King.
And we’ll get to how I found

390
00:19:02,720 –> 00:19:05,400
that out because they got
married, as you know, right?

391
00:19:05,680 –> 00:19:08,840
Peter was Mary’s third husband,
but Peter Borne, I thought, OK,

392
00:19:08,840 –> 00:19:10,280
let’s look into this Peter Borne
guy.

393
00:19:10,280 –> 00:19:13,720
And, and boy did I not see what
was coming when I found out

394
00:19:13,720 –> 00:19:15,200
about this guy.
So we know his father was

395
00:19:15,200 –> 00:19:19,080
Jeffrey SOE, worked in Malaysia,
worked in some, you know,

396
00:19:19,080 –> 00:19:22,960
biomedical research, whatever
that was after the Second World

397
00:19:22,960 –> 00:19:24,640
War.
We can only, you know, I don’t

398
00:19:24,640 –> 00:19:25,840
want to think about what that
would have been.

399
00:19:26,000 –> 00:19:26,680
Yeah.
Yeah.

400
00:19:26,800 –> 00:19:29,400
Peter.
Jeffrey was very much a kind of

401
00:19:29,520 –> 00:19:32,960
nepotistic kind of guy.
He wanted to help out his young

402
00:19:32,960 –> 00:19:35,320
lad, Peter.
So what Peter did, once he

403
00:19:35,320 –> 00:19:38,280
finished his schooling in the
UK, Jeffrey got him a position

404
00:19:38,280 –> 00:19:41,640
as a fellow at Emory University
in the psychiatric department.

405
00:19:41,720 –> 00:19:46,200
Now Emory University here we are
could cheering #2 MK Ultra

406
00:19:46,200 –> 00:19:49,680
facility #2 right?
Emory University in the story.

407
00:19:49,720 –> 00:19:54,960
And what he ends up doing there
could not sound more like an MK

408
00:19:55,040 –> 00:19:59,080
Ultra thing, at least in terms
of his work at the Atlanta

409
00:19:59,080 –> 00:20:01,440
Penitentiary.
Yeah, what what we know for

410
00:20:01,440 –> 00:20:05,000
definite is that from 1955
onwards, Emory University was

411
00:20:05,000 –> 00:20:09,560
experimenting on prisoners at
Atlanta Penitentiary with MK

412
00:20:09,560 –> 00:20:11,280
Ultra experiments.
So we we know that was

413
00:20:11,280 –> 00:20:14,040
definitely going on 55 almost.
When Peter Bourne turns up in

414
00:20:14,040 –> 00:20:17,760
63, eight years later, they’re
probably still doing the same

415
00:20:17,760 –> 00:20:20,160
stuff.
But he starts to work Peterborne

416
00:20:20,160 –> 00:20:23,080
on his official resume, helping
people with their alcoholic

417
00:20:23,080 –> 00:20:25,160
problems in Atlantis
penitentiary.

418
00:20:25,160 –> 00:20:29,440
So it’s kind of it’s, it’s a
nice potential cover for Peter

419
00:20:29,920 –> 00:20:32,360
if he’s potentially doing
something else other than

420
00:20:32,360 –> 00:20:35,680
helping out Alcoholics, right?
And you sort of wonder you’re

421
00:20:35,680 –> 00:20:37,920
banged up in prison.
You know, you’re not going to go

422
00:20:37,920 –> 00:20:40,400
out of bars very often.
You probably don’t get that much

423
00:20:40,400 –> 00:20:43,560
access to alcohol.
Is is alcoholism a big problem

424
00:20:43,560 –> 00:20:45,120
for prisoners when they’re
actually in prison?

425
00:20:45,160 –> 00:20:49,520
Yeah, and he described the group
he was working on or

426
00:20:49,520 –> 00:20:52,880
experimenting on as arrested
Alcoholics.

427
00:20:53,040 –> 00:20:57,200
And yeah, I don’t think you get
arrested just for alcoholism.

428
00:20:57,200 –> 00:21:01,800
There’s got to be more to know
and even there and his means of

429
00:21:01,920 –> 00:21:04,720
treating them or the way this
program worked, it seemed was,

430
00:21:04,800 –> 00:21:08,040
well, you can avoid jail time if
you just take this drug, which

431
00:21:09,160 –> 00:21:12,080
again, sounds very MK Ultra
esque.

432
00:21:12,120 –> 00:21:14,840
Yeah, and Emory University is
only 5 miles away from Mark

433
00:21:14,840 –> 00:21:17,760
Chapman’s house, so that’s well
worth considering.

434
00:21:17,760 –> 00:21:20,400
So, and you know, Chapman was at
this point, I’m not saying

435
00:21:20,400 –> 00:21:22,560
there’s any link between
Peterborne and Emory and Chapman

436
00:21:22,920 –> 00:21:25,640
5 miles down the road, but
Chapman was beginning to unravel

437
00:21:25,640 –> 00:21:28,680
at the exact same time That’s
Peter Bourne turned up at Emory.

438
00:21:28,680 –> 00:21:31,160
I don’t think there’s a
connection, but I would not be

439
00:21:31,160 –> 00:21:33,320
surprised if there was one.
But anyway, we’ll, we’ll park

440
00:21:33,320 –> 00:21:35,280
that for now.
So what what does, what does

441
00:21:35,280 –> 00:21:39,160
Peter Bourne do once he’s done
his great work in Atlanta jails

442
00:21:39,160 –> 00:21:42,920
for Emory University?
He decides to go to Vietnam as a

443
00:21:42,920 –> 00:21:45,240
captain.
You know, again, no doubt Dad

444
00:21:45,240 –> 00:21:47,720
pulling a few strings.
And, you know, his biography

445
00:21:47,720 –> 00:21:51,040
says that he worked for the
Walter Reed Army Institute in

446
00:21:51,040 –> 00:21:55,080
Vietnam and he’s apparently was
looking after and assessing the

447
00:21:55,080 –> 00:21:58,160
psychological effects of stress
on soldiers in Vietnam, which

448
00:21:58,160 –> 00:22:01,080
which on the face of it seems
fairly benign and, and

449
00:22:01,080 –> 00:22:02,200
legitimate.
Sure.

450
00:22:02,280 –> 00:22:06,440
But the problem, the problem is
the WRAIR also did a lot of

451
00:22:06,440 –> 00:22:08,600
experiments that have been
documented on microwave

452
00:22:08,600 –> 00:22:11,360
audiograms to spoken word sounds
that you can implant in people’s

453
00:22:11,360 –> 00:22:13,920
heads, which again, is it
couldn’t be more MK Ultra if it

454
00:22:13,920 –> 00:22:15,800
tried.
So he’s working for an

455
00:22:15,800 –> 00:22:19,200
organization, but it’s all about
electromagnetism and the

456
00:22:19,200 –> 00:22:21,880
foundation of putting thoughts
into side people’s heads.

457
00:22:22,320 –> 00:22:27,400
Again, no verified proof that
that’s what he was doing in

458
00:22:27,400 –> 00:22:29,160
Vietnam.
I know people like May Brussels

459
00:22:29,160 –> 00:22:31,480
say that that sort of stuff was
going on in Vietnam with with

460
00:22:31,480 –> 00:22:34,200
sort of, you know, battle
fatigue troops all the time they

461
00:22:34,200 –> 00:22:36,280
were using with these these
kinds of experiments in the

462
00:22:36,280 –> 00:22:39,000
psychiatric field where the
Bourne was doing that or not,

463
00:22:39,000 –> 00:22:40,680
who knows.
I mean, you know, as far as

464
00:22:40,680 –> 00:22:43,360
Bourne’s official biography
would say, he was a researcher.

465
00:22:43,560 –> 00:22:44,480
That’s all he was doing out
there.

466
00:22:44,760 –> 00:22:49,200
Yeah, who knows, But also
probably like, it seems like

467
00:22:49,200 –> 00:22:51,200
that’s probably what he was
there for.

468
00:22:51,440 –> 00:22:53,960
Yeah, I mean, he’s, he’s
admitted again on the website,

469
00:22:53,960 –> 00:22:55,680
you get too much away.
He’s admitted that he was in

470
00:22:55,680 –> 00:22:58,160
Special Forces.
So, you know, we know Special

471
00:22:58,160 –> 00:23:00,840
Forces weren’t really into their
research as such.

472
00:23:00,840 –> 00:23:03,200
You know, they were more into
doing sort of clandestine

473
00:23:03,200 –> 00:23:05,480
special stuff.
And we, there’s also a picture

474
00:23:05,480 –> 00:23:07,560
that he put up on his on his
website, which I put in the

475
00:23:07,560 –> 00:23:10,640
article where it’s just quite a
chilling picture actually.

476
00:23:11,000 –> 00:23:13,120
You know, you’d expect to see
Peter Bourne in a, in a white

477
00:23:13,120 –> 00:23:16,440
coat with a, with a, with a pad
and some poor soldier in front

478
00:23:16,440 –> 00:23:17,800
of him.
And he’s kind of, you know, cuts

479
00:23:17,800 –> 00:23:20,200
him through his dreadful, you
know, time.

480
00:23:20,520 –> 00:23:24,000
But what this picture shows, and
it’s a it’s an incredibly I

481
00:23:24,000 –> 00:23:26,600
can’t believe the guy put this
up on his website is Peter

482
00:23:26,600 –> 00:23:29,880
Bourne, dressed as a as a kind
of army guy and all his fatigues

483
00:23:29,880 –> 00:23:33,200
with a rifle in his hand,
walking away from a burning

484
00:23:33,360 –> 00:23:35,840
Oliver Stone platoon esque
village behind him.

485
00:23:35,920 –> 00:23:37,720
OK, which is a burnt to the
ground.

486
00:23:37,800 –> 00:23:40,080
And he’s got this massive grin
on his face.

487
00:23:40,320 –> 00:23:44,720
The biggest smile on his?
Face, it’s kind of like how how

488
00:23:44,720 –> 00:23:47,480
are you enjoying this?
Yeah, yeah.

489
00:23:47,880 –> 00:23:50,120
You know what’s what’s going on
here?

490
00:23:50,120 –> 00:23:52,320
You know, you’re not doing
research in that village, are

491
00:23:52,320 –> 00:23:53,360
you?
You know, you’re not going to

492
00:23:53,360 –> 00:23:56,000
get many medical research
offices that are going to be

493
00:23:56,360 –> 00:23:59,240
usable in a burnt down
Vietnamese village.

494
00:23:59,240 –> 00:24:03,120
It’s just bizarre.
And he comes out of all that and

495
00:24:03,320 –> 00:24:05,360
decides he’s an anti war
activist now.

496
00:24:05,720 –> 00:24:08,120
Yeah, but just before he does
come out, the researcher got a

497
00:24:08,120 –> 00:24:10,720
Bronze Star medal, He got an Air
medal when he got a combat’s

498
00:24:10,720 –> 00:24:14,680
medic badge, which is pretty
good going for a researcher.

499
00:24:14,680 –> 00:24:18,000
So he did.
We got some good medals there.

500
00:24:18,440 –> 00:24:20,480
And you’re right, bizarrely,
after that he decides to

501
00:24:20,480 –> 00:24:24,240
relocate to the West Coast as an
anti war protester and he starts

502
00:24:24,240 –> 00:24:28,280
to operate in the anti war
protester circles, which again,

503
00:24:28,360 –> 00:24:31,760
for Captain Bourne, who likes to
get in the thick of it in

504
00:24:31,760 –> 00:24:34,480
burning villages.
That’s quite a swerve, isn’t it?

505
00:24:34,640 –> 00:24:39,480
Yeah, and around this time he
ends up at a third MK Ultra.

506
00:24:39,480 –> 00:24:41,720
Well, he ends, he ends up at
Stanford.

507
00:24:41,800 –> 00:24:43,480
He goes to Stanford.
Sure.

508
00:24:43,720 –> 00:24:47,360
It’s 6769, he’s in Stanford, you
know, So he’s gone from Emory to

509
00:24:47,360 –> 00:24:49,160
Stanford now.
So this is this is Bourne’s

510
00:24:49,160 –> 00:24:52,920
second MK Ultra links at
university in America.

511
00:24:52,920 –> 00:24:56,240
So that’s kind of disturbing.
And just when you think it can’t

512
00:24:56,240 –> 00:25:00,000
get any more disturbing with
Peter Bourne, I discover that at

513
00:25:00,000 –> 00:25:05,080
the very same time he decides to
volunteer at the Heights Ashbury

514
00:25:05,080 –> 00:25:07,840
Free Clinic, right?
Which I don’t know if you know

515
00:25:07,840 –> 00:25:12,760
about that, Adam, but that is
AMK Ultra almost kind of temple.

516
00:25:12,880 –> 00:25:13,560
Sure.
Yeah.

517
00:25:13,800 –> 00:25:17,000
Doctor Jolly West.
That’s right, as exposed by Tom

518
00:25:17,000 –> 00:25:20,360
O’Neill in his great book Chaos,
where Tom O’Neill put together

519
00:25:20,360 –> 00:25:23,680
the fact that the the Manson
family, Charlie Manson and his

520
00:25:23,680 –> 00:25:25,680
and his group and his, you know,
his group of followers, his

521
00:25:25,680 –> 00:25:28,600
so-called family went there a
lot to this clinic at the very

522
00:25:28,600 –> 00:25:30,520
same time that Charlene W was
working out of there.

523
00:25:30,920 –> 00:25:35,920
And I think Tom O’Neill’s theory
is that Charlene West, he gave

524
00:25:35,920 –> 00:25:38,680
Charlie Manson the sort of
skills that, you know, he would

525
00:25:38,680 –> 00:25:40,840
need to brainwash and hypnotize
his followers.

526
00:25:41,120 –> 00:25:43,560
And a lot of his followers said
that he did have magnetic

527
00:25:43,640 –> 00:25:46,280
hypnotic skills, you know, to
get them to do things that they

528
00:25:46,280 –> 00:25:48,000
didn’t really want to do.
So you sort of think if that’s

529
00:25:48,000 –> 00:25:50,440
true, that’s, you know, you get
into current Tell Pro, you’re

530
00:25:50,440 –> 00:25:52,920
getting into Operation Chaos,
you’re getting into, you know,

531
00:25:52,920 –> 00:25:56,560
really dark, dark waters.
But as well as Jolie W being

532
00:25:56,560 –> 00:25:59,120
there and Charlie Manson, you’ve
got our old friend Peter Bourne.

533
00:25:59,160 –> 00:26:02,760
He’s also there, which is that’s
your third MK Ultra Link

534
00:26:02,760 –> 00:26:04,960
facility, Peter.
It’s getting, it’s getting a bit

535
00:26:04,960 –> 00:26:09,120
careless now and my coincidence
meter is getting very high here.

536
00:26:09,120 –> 00:26:11,520
My threshold is pretty much been
surpassed at this point.

537
00:26:11,520 –> 00:26:15,160
Yeah, I tell people all the time
think of this podcast more as a

538
00:26:15,160 –> 00:26:18,080
true crime podcast where the
government is always the

539
00:26:18,080 –> 00:26:20,280
criminal.
Because if you listen to enough

540
00:26:20,280 –> 00:26:23,240
true crime podcast, you’re
immediately going to hear, oh,

541
00:26:23,240 –> 00:26:25,600
well, I don’t believe in
coincidences, but with stuff

542
00:26:25,600 –> 00:26:28,080
like this, you do.
Because when you put this

543
00:26:28,080 –> 00:26:33,720
together with Mark Chapman, it
feels like some entity carrying

544
00:26:33,720 –> 00:26:37,120
out a playbook kind of thing
where they’ve got this down,

545
00:26:37,120 –> 00:26:39,240
they know how to do this, this
is their MO.

546
00:26:39,440 –> 00:26:42,680
How is that a coincidence?
I don’t know how people can take

547
00:26:42,680 –> 00:26:46,600
that as a coincidence when it’s
happening at the same time a

548
00:26:46,600 –> 00:26:50,720
massive government program meant
to ’cause this kind of thing is

549
00:26:50,720 –> 00:26:52,640
also happening.
There’s no way those are

550
00:26:52,640 –> 00:26:55,000
coincidences.
Yeah, and if you look at the

551
00:26:55,000 –> 00:26:57,280
West Coast at the time, Adam,
you’ve got someone like James O

552
00:26:57,280 –> 00:27:01,000
Ray, MLK’s alleged assassin.
He was seeing no fewer than

553
00:27:01,000 –> 00:27:04,200
eight different psychiatrists
and hypnotists in California at

554
00:27:04,200 –> 00:27:09,400
the same time, 67 until 68.
So he’s there being hypnotised.

555
00:27:09,560 –> 00:27:11,680
OK, so that you know, is that a
coincidence?

556
00:27:11,720 –> 00:27:13,760
Maybe Siran?
Siran, same thing.

557
00:27:13,960 –> 00:27:17,240
He’s in the area.
His so-called assassination of

558
00:27:17,240 –> 00:27:22,000
Robert Kennedy is in San
Francisco at the time, in 68.

559
00:27:22,320 –> 00:27:24,720
At the same time, West and
Bourne are working out of their

560
00:27:24,720 –> 00:27:26,000
clinic.
Is it?

561
00:27:26,000 –> 00:27:27,960
I don’t know.
I mean, it could be.

562
00:27:27,960 –> 00:27:30,520
It could would we just have to
kind of park it, really.

563
00:27:30,520 –> 00:27:33,280
But.
What a wild coincidence that

564
00:27:33,280 –> 00:27:34,680
would be.
Yeah.

565
00:27:34,800 –> 00:27:36,880
And I think that’s the question
that got Peter Bourne spokes.

566
00:27:36,880 –> 00:27:38,640
When I asked him that on an
e-mail, I said, look, the thing

567
00:27:38,640 –> 00:27:40,880
I want to talk to you about,
because if you go on his

568
00:27:40,880 –> 00:27:43,520
Wikipedia, he talks about Emory.
You know, he did some great work

569
00:27:43,520 –> 00:27:46,040
with some Alcoholics.
He talks about Stanford, you

570
00:27:46,040 –> 00:27:48,200
know, he went to Stanford
psychiatry department, you know,

571
00:27:48,360 –> 00:27:51,520
world renowned, but he doesn’t
mention, you know too much about

572
00:27:51,520 –> 00:27:52,760
Heights Ashby.
He just says he was there as a

573
00:27:52,760 –> 00:27:55,560
volunteer, quickly moves on.
So I thought that’s that’s a

574
00:27:55,560 –> 00:27:58,160
weird one because no one even I
mean communicates with Tom

575
00:27:58,160 –> 00:28:00,360
O’Neill, not even Tom O’Neill
got that, got that one.

576
00:28:00,360 –> 00:28:02,160
So Tom’s going to be looking
into that because Tom’s got some

577
00:28:02,160 –> 00:28:05,080
documentation Heights Ashby at
the time, and I’m hoping that he

578
00:28:05,080 –> 00:28:08,920
can find some links to to to
Peter Bourne from that time.

579
00:28:08,920 –> 00:28:12,640
Yeah, he also started working
for Nixon in 72.

580
00:28:12,800 –> 00:28:15,040
OK, Yeah.
What happens is after he’s

581
00:28:15,040 –> 00:28:18,400
finished his volunteering at
Heights Ashbury and working at

582
00:28:18,400 –> 00:28:21,240
Stanford in 69, he goes back to
Emory in Georgia.

583
00:28:21,600 –> 00:28:23,920
This is Peter Bourne.
And Peter Bourne at this time

584
00:28:23,920 –> 00:28:26,960
starts to hook up with Jimmy
Carter.

585
00:28:26,960 –> 00:28:29,960
OK, who’s an up and coming
politician, local politician who

586
00:28:29,960 –> 00:28:32,720
obviously becomes governor of
Georgia in the early 70s.

587
00:28:33,160 –> 00:28:35,440
And what Peter Bourne says he’s
doing there is setting up a

588
00:28:35,440 –> 00:28:37,760
health centre, a community
health centre.

589
00:28:37,760 –> 00:28:39,960
And coincident did this exactly
the same time that Mark Chapman

590
00:28:39,960 –> 00:28:42,920
started to take LSD and started
his journey into charismatic

591
00:28:42,920 –> 00:28:45,400
Christianity in Georgia 5 miles
down the road.

592
00:28:45,400 –> 00:28:47,800
Again, I’m sure this is a
complete coincidence.

593
00:28:47,800 –> 00:28:50,720
I’m sure Mark Chapman never went
to Peter Bourne’s health centre

594
00:28:51,480 –> 00:28:53,880
and if he did, I doubt we’ll
ever find out.

595
00:28:54,520 –> 00:28:58,520
But yeah, so then Bourne is kind
of hooking up with Bourne

596
00:28:58,680 –> 00:29:00,960
father.
Jeffrey and Peter are both Jimmy

597
00:29:00,960 –> 00:29:03,440
Carter friends and kind of
enablers.

598
00:29:03,560 –> 00:29:06,040
And they’re the guys that
apparently I don’t think Carter

599
00:29:06,040 –> 00:29:09,400
has, you know, disputed this.
They gave him the idea to run

600
00:29:09,400 –> 00:29:11,320
for president.
Okay, so they and they kind of

601
00:29:11,320 –> 00:29:14,640
pushed him.
So Carter at the time starts to

602
00:29:14,640 –> 00:29:17,480
work with Peter Borne as an anti
drugs kind of guy, as a drug

603
00:29:17,480 –> 00:29:21,080
czar in Georgia and Borne
started to sort of class himself

604
00:29:21,080 –> 00:29:23,640
as Carter’s special advisor for
health in Georgia.

605
00:29:23,720 –> 00:29:28,440
So what you’ve got there is
you’ve got a British guy who’s

606
00:29:28,440 –> 00:29:31,760
had a lot of MK Ultra
potentially experience in

607
00:29:31,760 –> 00:29:36,720
different universities who’s now
pushing for a Democratic nobody.

608
00:29:36,720 –> 00:29:39,720
Let’s face it, at the time,
Carter literally wasn’t nobody

609
00:29:39,880 –> 00:29:41,800
to run for the American
presidency.

610
00:29:42,120 –> 00:29:45,080
But before he did that, Bourne
had a bit more politics to get

611
00:29:45,080 –> 00:29:48,160
involved with and he starts to
work, would you believe, for

612
00:29:48,160 –> 00:29:50,120
Richard Nixon?
As you say, he starts to work

613
00:29:50,120 –> 00:29:53,760
for riction between as a drug,
as a drugs health guy.

614
00:29:53,760 –> 00:29:56,840
So you know, he’s kind of in
there and he says he kind of did

615
00:29:56,840 –> 00:29:58,760
it because it was a kind of
career thing and he had no

616
00:29:58,760 –> 00:30:00,240
affiliate affiliation with
Nixon.

617
00:30:00,280 –> 00:30:03,080
His heart was always with Jimmy.
But what he was doing was while

618
00:30:03,080 –> 00:30:05,480
he was working for Nixon.
This is obviously pre Watergate,

619
00:30:05,480 –> 00:30:08,640
sort of 72 ish.
He’s going back to Georgia and

620
00:30:08,640 –> 00:30:10,960
he’s teeing up Jimmy for his
76th run.

621
00:30:11,040 –> 00:30:14,040
So it’s kind of like you had a
classic insider there working

622
00:30:14,040 –> 00:30:17,200
for for Nixon and he worked for
Ford as well born.

623
00:30:17,200 –> 00:30:19,960
So he’s kind of the ultimate
Washington insider for Jimmy

624
00:30:19,960 –> 00:30:23,120
Carter, giving him no doubt all
the Intel on obviously Nixon’s

625
00:30:23,120 –> 00:30:26,760
inadequacies as as a president
and a guy running for 76.

626
00:30:27,000 –> 00:30:31,320
So it’s very interesting that
you’ve got this guy there and

627
00:30:31,320 –> 00:30:34,080
you’ve got his wife because what
happened is Peter Bourne.

628
00:30:34,080 –> 00:30:36,720
This is where it all ties up.
Peter Bourne, when he went back

629
00:30:36,720 –> 00:30:39,400
to Emory in Georgia and started
to hang out with Jimmy Carter in

630
00:30:39,400 –> 00:30:44,360
the early 70s, he met Mary King
and true love blossoms and Mary

631
00:30:44,360 –> 00:30:47,560
King and Peter Bourne married
and became this kind of, you

632
00:30:47,560 –> 00:30:50,520
know, Washington power couple.
Really, there’s now the way to

633
00:30:50,520 –> 00:30:52,120
describe it.
So what you’ve got there is

634
00:30:52,120 –> 00:30:55,800
you’ve got this very disturbing
link between Peter Borne and

635
00:30:55,800 –> 00:30:58,880
Dennis Sweeney and Mary King,
which again, is it could be a

636
00:30:58,880 –> 00:31:00,920
coincidence.
It could just be Peter Borne

637
00:31:01,640 –> 00:31:03,680
doesn’t want to ever talk about
Dennis Sweeney.

638
00:31:03,680 –> 00:31:05,600
Apparently when he was asked
about Dennis Sweeney and his

639
00:31:05,600 –> 00:31:08,240
wife, he just said, oh, she was
only married to him for a few

640
00:31:08,240 –> 00:31:10,120
months.
I think it was nearly a year.

641
00:31:10,200 –> 00:31:15,320
It seems like Mary King also
kind of later in life, tried to

642
00:31:15,480 –> 00:31:18,200
distance herself from Dennis
Sweeney.

643
00:31:18,440 –> 00:31:20,640
She did.
She wrote a book, quite a good

644
00:31:20,640 –> 00:31:23,280
book actually, about, you know,
her struggles in the civil

645
00:31:23,280 –> 00:31:25,200
rights movement in the 60s.
It’s a very interesting book,

646
00:31:25,200 –> 00:31:27,080
you know, because that’s a very
interesting time and there’s a

647
00:31:27,080 –> 00:31:28,720
lot of bright people down to do
some great work.

648
00:31:28,720 –> 00:31:31,440
But she gives a few things away
in the book she probably doesn’t

649
00:31:31,440 –> 00:31:33,160
want to.
And she kind of mentions, you

650
00:31:33,160 –> 00:31:36,040
know, that after she’d done all
the civil rights and divorced

651
00:31:36,040 –> 00:31:38,400
Dennis Sweeney and all the rest
of it, she was told by her

652
00:31:38,400 –> 00:31:40,800
friends, don’t ever mention
Dennis Sweeney again, obviously

653
00:31:40,800 –> 00:31:43,160
after the Adeline.
And she said she kind of thought

654
00:31:43,160 –> 00:31:44,240
that was where she was going to
go.

655
00:31:44,360 –> 00:31:46,600
But then her friends sort of
said to him, you might seem a

656
00:31:46,600 –> 00:31:49,120
bit evasive if you don’t
actually talk about it, if you

657
00:31:49,120 –> 00:31:50,720
try to completely scrub him out
of your life.

658
00:31:50,920 –> 00:31:53,520
So no doubt she considered that.
But then she thought, actually,

659
00:31:53,520 –> 00:31:55,520
he’s done such a big famous
crime.

660
00:31:55,840 –> 00:31:57,920
I was married to the guy.
I’m going to have to be honest

661
00:31:57,920 –> 00:31:59,280
about it.
And the stuff she revealed,

662
00:31:59,280 –> 00:32:02,080
which we’ll get to near the end
of this podcast, you know, she

663
00:32:02,080 –> 00:32:04,600
she go too much away really
about what she might have known

664
00:32:04,600 –> 00:32:06,800
about Dennis Sweeney and what
was going on in his mind.

665
00:32:06,800 –> 00:32:10,040
So, so, yeah, Mary, but, you
know, getting back to where we

666
00:32:10,040 –> 00:32:13,680
are in the sort of coming up to
Carter’s run for presidency,

667
00:32:14,000 –> 00:32:16,920
you’ve got two people there who
were just completely at the

668
00:32:16,920 –> 00:32:19,200
heart of government.
And obviously, when Carter did

669
00:32:19,200 –> 00:32:23,200
win, Peter Bourne was made his
drug czar, which was incredible.

670
00:32:23,280 –> 00:32:26,680
Yeah, that’s really strange.
Should we talk about the dental

671
00:32:26,680 –> 00:32:28,720
appointment now?
This is where I have it in the

672
00:32:28,720 –> 00:32:30,920
notes if nothing else.
Yeah, yeah, that’s good.

673
00:32:30,920 –> 00:32:32,000
The dental point.
Because what happened?

674
00:32:32,000 –> 00:32:33,360
You’ve got Dennis.
Let’s get back to poor old

675
00:32:33,360 –> 00:32:34,200
Dennis, right?
OK.

676
00:32:34,200 –> 00:32:37,040
He’s now a divorcee.
He’s hearing these voices in his

677
00:32:37,040 –> 00:32:39,600
head, and these voices are
becoming more and more strong,

678
00:32:39,720 –> 00:32:41,080
and he’s getting more and more
depressed.

679
00:32:41,160 –> 00:32:45,000
And he believes, and he’s now
come to believe that the voices

680
00:32:45,000 –> 00:32:47,880
are coming from a transmitter
that were placed inside his

681
00:32:47,880 –> 00:32:49,000
teeth.
Would you believe?

682
00:32:49,480 –> 00:32:51,920
And he believes this was done
when he went to the dentist with

683
00:32:51,920 –> 00:32:56,240
Mary back in 65 in Mississippi.
And he’s convinced that’s where

684
00:32:56,240 –> 00:32:58,360
this happened.
And it got to such a horrible

685
00:32:58,360 –> 00:33:01,760
point with poor old Dennis that
he actually tried to pull out

686
00:33:01,760 –> 00:33:04,560
his teeth with pliers because he
was convinced that was the only

687
00:33:04,560 –> 00:33:08,360
way he was going to get this
transmitter out of his head when

688
00:33:08,400 –> 00:33:11,840
he got most of his teeth out.
Would you believe he then still

689
00:33:11,840 –> 00:33:14,000
kept on hearing the voices?
This is not surprising.

690
00:33:14,480 –> 00:33:17,600
And he said he thought it might
be an implant into his brain

691
00:33:17,880 –> 00:33:21,080
because he just he just felt
that something was transmitting

692
00:33:21,320 –> 00:33:24,920
internally messages to his mind.
I mean, of course, this could be

693
00:33:24,920 –> 00:33:27,680
mental illness.
You know, we have to we have to

694
00:33:27,680 –> 00:33:31,160
state this, you know, But then
there’s something else that Mary

695
00:33:31,160 –> 00:33:34,080
King gives away later on.
We’ll get to that wants to maybe

696
00:33:34,080 –> 00:33:35,360
there might have been something
else going on.

697
00:33:35,360 –> 00:33:37,480
But but Dennis is on a bad path
now.

698
00:33:37,480 –> 00:33:39,880
Dennis, you know, it’s
interesting with with Peter and

699
00:33:39,880 –> 00:33:43,280
Mary, you know, becoming this
Washington power couple, rising

700
00:33:43,280 –> 00:33:44,920
up the ranks.
You got poor old Dennis who’s

701
00:33:44,920 –> 00:33:46,920
just literally becoming
destitute.

702
00:33:46,920 –> 00:33:48,920
He, he, you know, he goes from
home to home.

703
00:33:49,160 –> 00:33:51,560
He tries to be a Carpenter.
All his friends just see him

704
00:33:51,560 –> 00:33:52,760
going down.
Obviously he’s lost all his

705
00:33:52,760 –> 00:33:56,320
teeth, becomes homeless.
He tries a bit of music.

706
00:33:56,320 –> 00:33:59,560
He tries a bit of film making.
Everything doesn’t work for Paul

707
00:33:59,560 –> 00:34:01,800
Dennis.
And in a way, he’s kind of going

708
00:34:01,800 –> 00:34:06,240
on this fast track through the
70s to oblivion, really to the

709
00:34:06,240 –> 00:34:09,120
point where I think, you know,
when you get to March 1980, he

710
00:34:09,120 –> 00:34:11,880
turns up and out of Lowenstein’s
office, you know, he’s at

711
00:34:11,880 –> 00:34:13,600
breaking point.
There’s no question about that.

712
00:34:13,600 –> 00:34:16,480
But but yeah, let’s let’s get
back to good old Peter Borne,

713
00:34:16,480 –> 00:34:20,280
the drug czar.
Yeah, he, in his role as drug

714
00:34:20,280 –> 00:34:23,920
czar, wrote a very interesting
article about cocaine.

715
00:34:24,760 –> 00:34:29,159
It seemed like he was kind of
pro cocaine.

716
00:34:29,320 –> 00:34:33,080
Yeah, he called it the cocaine
myth and he just said it’s

717
00:34:33,080 –> 00:34:35,560
great, you should all take it.
There’s nothing wrong with it.

718
00:34:35,600 –> 00:34:37,560
It’s just like, you know what,
what’s what’s the big deal?

719
00:34:37,560 –> 00:34:40,280
And remember when he’s saying
this, it’s 74.

720
00:34:40,639 –> 00:34:43,960
So he hasn’t become in in the
Carter administration yet.

721
00:34:43,960 –> 00:34:47,360
But he is working with Jimmy as
his health advisor and his drug

722
00:34:47,360 –> 00:34:50,840
advisor in Georgia.
So he’s kind of laying down the

723
00:34:50,840 –> 00:34:53,239
marker there.
I would say to never give this

724
00:34:53,239 –> 00:34:55,600
guy a job.
Drug.

725
00:34:55,800 –> 00:34:59,800
Yeah, as a drug star, you know,
but but he’s something about

726
00:34:59,800 –> 00:35:02,800
Peter Bourne.
He’s just, he can say or do

727
00:35:02,800 –> 00:35:05,040
anything.
He’s literally untouchable.

728
00:35:05,160 –> 00:35:08,640
The guy, as we’re about to get
into the stuff he did when he

729
00:35:08,640 –> 00:35:11,760
was Jimmy Carters drug czar,
it’s just off the charts

730
00:35:11,880 –> 00:35:15,400
horrific, Dreadful.
You know, it’s the sort of thing

731
00:35:15,400 –> 00:35:18,000
you would not expect the guy in
his position to do, but he does

732
00:35:18,000 –> 00:35:19,200
it and he just gets away with
it.

733
00:35:19,200 –> 00:35:22,160
Yeah.
For example, he participated in

734
00:35:22,160 –> 00:35:26,160
a weird insecticide spraying
campaign against Mexican

735
00:35:26,160 –> 00:35:29,560
marijuana.
Yeah, I mean, he always said he

736
00:35:29,600 –> 00:35:31,480
didn’t have too much of a
problem with marijuana, and his

737
00:35:31,480 –> 00:35:33,640
big target was heroin.
Clearly he didn’t want to go

738
00:35:33,640 –> 00:35:35,240
near cocaine because he loves
cocaine.

739
00:35:35,240 –> 00:35:38,200
He’s like he said, Dad, what
about cocaine?

740
00:35:38,200 –> 00:35:40,000
That’s great stuff.
We should be having that back in

741
00:35:40,000 –> 00:35:42,880
our pharmacist.
No, it’s a heroin’s his target.

742
00:35:42,880 –> 00:35:45,080
And he thought his big my idea
was, was to give the Mexican

743
00:35:45,080 –> 00:35:46,880
government some of this thing
called parakeet.

744
00:35:47,240 –> 00:35:48,320
I forgot the name of that.
Right.

745
00:35:48,320 –> 00:35:49,640
Paraquet, I think it’s actually
called.

746
00:35:49,640 –> 00:35:53,040
Yeah, which is a herbicide, very
deadly for humans.

747
00:35:53,040 –> 00:35:56,040
And he decided to spray the
heroin crops, the poppy fields

748
00:35:56,280 –> 00:35:58,320
with this stuff.
And he thought that will kill

749
00:35:58,320 –> 00:36:00,920
off the heroin that’s coming in
from Mexico and it will solve my

750
00:36:00,920 –> 00:36:02,640
big problem probably was the
Mexicans.

751
00:36:02,640 –> 00:36:03,120
When?
Yeah, that.

752
00:36:03,120 –> 00:36:04,840
OK, that’s fine.
But we’ve got a big marijuana

753
00:36:04,840 –> 00:36:07,000
problem in our country and your,
you know, coming from our

754
00:36:07,000 –> 00:36:09,440
country, your country, we want
to spray that stuff on our

755
00:36:09,440 –> 00:36:11,960
marijuana crops.
He’s some of that could be

756
00:36:11,960 –> 00:36:13,440
coming.
I’m not sure about that.

757
00:36:13,760 –> 00:36:15,160
He agreed to it.
At the end of the day, it’s

758
00:36:15,160 –> 00:36:17,040
illegal.
So, hey, they should be taken

759
00:36:17,040 –> 00:36:18,400
anyway.
So he’s got some crap on it.

760
00:36:18,400 –> 00:36:20,440
We sprayed on it.
It’s your fault, you know, it’s

761
00:36:20,440 –> 00:36:22,600
not nothing to do with me.
You know, it’s all illegal.

762
00:36:22,600 –> 00:36:26,560
So shame on you.
So he decides to spray all the

763
00:36:26,560 –> 00:36:28,920
crops, all the marijuana crops
at the time of parakeet in

764
00:36:28,920 –> 00:36:30,440
Mexico.
He allows the Mexican government

765
00:36:30,440 –> 00:36:31,880
to do this.
And of course, this stuff comes

766
00:36:31,880 –> 00:36:34,160
over the American border and
people are starting to take it

767
00:36:34,160 –> 00:36:35,680
and they’re getting health and,
you know, they’re getting heart

768
00:36:35,680 –> 00:36:37,120
and lung problems.
You know, it’s a massive

769
00:36:37,120 –> 00:36:38,960
scandal.
The press picked up on it.

770
00:36:38,960 –> 00:36:41,920
But the guy, again, untouchable,
he just got away with it.

771
00:36:41,920 –> 00:36:43,600
He was just kind of like, you
know, at the end of the day,

772
00:36:43,760 –> 00:36:45,520
these people are moaning about
something that’s illegal.

773
00:36:45,520 –> 00:36:49,160
Yeah, that seems like that was
his actual defense was well,

774
00:36:49,160 –> 00:36:50,600
it’s illegal, you shouldn’t be
doing it.

775
00:36:50,760 –> 00:36:53,080
So what if it’s making you sick?
Unbelievable.

776
00:36:53,080 –> 00:36:55,120
There’s another, but there was a
guy, there was a kind of pro

777
00:36:55,120 –> 00:36:57,320
marijuana group and there’s a
guy who ran it called Keith

778
00:36:57,320 –> 00:36:58,920
Stroop.
He’s a very interesting guy.

779
00:36:59,000 –> 00:37:02,280
And because Peter Bourne is a
bit of a kind of bonavie kind of

780
00:37:02,280 –> 00:37:04,680
guy, I think Peter Bourne liked
to be popular.

781
00:37:04,920 –> 00:37:07,320
He kind of was Hollywood Keith
Stroop.

782
00:37:07,320 –> 00:37:10,200
And he got Keith Stroop in once
in the sort of, I would say,

783
00:37:10,240 –> 00:37:14,480
right about sort of 60, 76
cents, I’d say 77.

784
00:37:14,480 –> 00:37:16,640
This happened possibly 78.
And there was a big, would you

785
00:37:16,640 –> 00:37:18,960
believe pro marijuana party at
the White House?

786
00:37:19,280 –> 00:37:21,280
No.
And of course, Peter Bourne

787
00:37:21,360 –> 00:37:24,640
being Peter Bourne, decides to
take some marijuana and cocaine

788
00:37:24,720 –> 00:37:28,320
at the party and is spotted by
various people at the party,

789
00:37:28,480 –> 00:37:30,920
right?
So stupid man, stupid man again,

790
00:37:30,920 –> 00:37:34,200
arrogant, untouchable.
So what then happens is would

791
00:37:34,200 –> 00:37:37,600
you believe Keith Stroop keeps
this piece of knowledge in the

792
00:37:37,600 –> 00:37:40,080
back of his head, right?
Thinks, OK, I’ve got this guy

793
00:37:40,080 –> 00:37:42,520
now, if he starts to cause me
problems and goes back on his

794
00:37:42,800 –> 00:37:45,520
pro marijuana stance, I’m gonna
get him.

795
00:37:45,520 –> 00:37:47,840
So when Keith St. found out
about this parakeet being

796
00:37:47,840 –> 00:37:51,040
sprayed on marijuana crops in
Mexico, he’s like, what is this

797
00:37:51,040 –> 00:37:52,720
guy doing?
This is shocking.

798
00:37:52,720 –> 00:37:54,800
And Keith was, you know, going
to the to the press and saying

799
00:37:54,800 –> 00:37:58,480
that this this stuff provenly
will will give people lung

800
00:37:58,480 –> 00:37:59,840
conditions.
You know, this is deadly.

801
00:37:59,840 –> 00:38:01,480
This stuff is spraying.
OK.

802
00:38:01,640 –> 00:38:03,600
But even then, Peter was
untouchable.

803
00:38:03,680 –> 00:38:06,360
But Peter, I think the problem
with people, people like Peter

804
00:38:06,360 –> 00:38:08,400
Bourne who think they’re
untouchable and they’ve got egos

805
00:38:08,400 –> 00:38:10,920
the size of planets.
And no doubt Peter has that he

806
00:38:10,920 –> 00:38:14,280
pushed it too far.
And his undoing was he gave some

807
00:38:14,280 –> 00:38:19,360
Quelades prescriptions to a, a,
a White House staffer, a girl

808
00:38:19,360 –> 00:38:21,640
who just was feeling a bit, you
know, a bit down and she wanted

809
00:38:21,640 –> 00:38:23,480
to sort of like, and as you
know, it’s got some hypnotic

810
00:38:23,480 –> 00:38:24,440
qualities.
This drug.

811
00:38:25,280 –> 00:38:27,800
It’s it’s I don’t, I don’t think
they’d prescribe it today.

812
00:38:27,800 –> 00:38:29,520
Maybe they would, who knows what
they prescribe today.

813
00:38:29,760 –> 00:38:31,160
But anyway, he shouldn’t have
done it.

814
00:38:31,160 –> 00:38:32,960
He gave it as a legal
prescription.

815
00:38:32,960 –> 00:38:36,760
But his big problem was he gave
it to this girl who was sick and

816
00:38:36,760 –> 00:38:39,440
she gave it to a friend.
OK, A friend went to the

817
00:38:39,440 –> 00:38:41,680
pharmacy to get these, these
drugs for her friend.

818
00:38:41,800 –> 00:38:44,000
And the pharmacist got got kind
of suspicious.

819
00:38:44,000 –> 00:38:46,320
He was like, you don’t seem like
the person that’s on this name.

820
00:38:46,320 –> 00:38:48,200
What’s your name?
She got it all confused.

821
00:38:48,680 –> 00:38:51,480
It then LED back to Peter porn
at the White House.

822
00:38:51,720 –> 00:38:53,880
But you’ve been given this
prescription and eagerly by the

823
00:38:53,880 –> 00:38:55,680
drug czar of the Jimmy Carter
government.

824
00:38:55,920 –> 00:38:59,440
And would you believe, would you
believe that he still survived?

825
00:38:59,560 –> 00:39:01,160
OK?
He still clung on, right?

826
00:39:01,160 –> 00:39:03,280
He still said no, no, no, no,
no, it’s not a problem.

827
00:39:03,280 –> 00:39:05,760
You know, I was just trying to
help someone out and I was

828
00:39:05,760 –> 00:39:08,240
keeping it undercover because,
you know, it’s it’s doctor

829
00:39:08,240 –> 00:39:11,640
patient privacy thing.
I mean, amazing hubris of this

830
00:39:11,640 –> 00:39:15,520
guy to just steal, you know, do
and then he admitted that he’d

831
00:39:15,520 –> 00:39:18,040
given, you know, a dozen of
these prescriptions to a dozen

832
00:39:18,040 –> 00:39:19,240
different people in the White
House.

833
00:39:19,600 –> 00:39:21,560
It’s like, Christ, are they all
on this stuff?

834
00:39:22,000 –> 00:39:25,240
Jimmy Carter presidency.
I mean, he was going you got an

835
00:39:25,240 –> 00:39:29,280
MK Ultra linked guy giving these
hypnotic drugs to White House

836
00:39:29,280 –> 00:39:32,440
staffers illegally.
And he’s he’s still at his job.

837
00:39:32,720 –> 00:39:34,960
But the thing that pushed him
over the edge, just at this

838
00:39:34,960 –> 00:39:37,560
point, Keith cashed in his chips
with him and he went to the

839
00:39:37,560 –> 00:39:41,600
press and said, I saw Peter
Borne take cocaine and marijuana

840
00:39:41,600 –> 00:39:44,640
at a party that I attended.
And that was the thing where

841
00:39:44,640 –> 00:39:47,800
Carl had just probably got him
in and said, look, I know you.

842
00:39:48,120 –> 00:39:50,640
I know you created me.
I know you pushed me forward.

843
00:39:50,640 –> 00:39:52,360
And we’re good friends.
I love your dad.

844
00:39:52,600 –> 00:39:55,280
But you’ve done this, this, this
and this, You know, the

845
00:39:55,280 –> 00:40:00,360
parakeet, the Quaelace, the, you
know, taking cocaine in the

846
00:40:00,360 –> 00:40:02,000
White House.
You got a ghost.

847
00:40:02,080 –> 00:40:03,720
And he went, and that was the
end of it.

848
00:40:03,720 –> 00:40:06,960
He left.
And, you know, and, and he, like

849
00:40:06,960 –> 00:40:10,280
his wife, Mary King, he just
decided to go down the NGO

850
00:40:10,280 –> 00:40:11,920
route.
He decided that I’m just going

851
00:40:11,920 –> 00:40:13,720
to, you know, just go and start
to work for the World Health

852
00:40:13,720 –> 00:40:15,360
Organization.
Would you believe the World

853
00:40:15,480 –> 00:40:18,600
Health Organization hired a guy
who wrote an article called The

854
00:40:18,600 –> 00:40:20,960
Cocaine Myth a couple of years
earlier?

855
00:40:21,480 –> 00:40:23,480
Amazing.
And he worked at the UN for a

856
00:40:23,480 –> 00:40:26,400
while after that worked.
At the UN for a while in 78,

857
00:40:26,400 –> 00:40:29,160
where he met Adam Lowenstein.
He was working at the time where

858
00:40:29,160 –> 00:40:31,680
he might, or would you believe
have met Mark Chapman, who was

859
00:40:31,680 –> 00:40:36,280
at the UN in 78 in the summer at
the same time, just Mark Chapman

860
00:40:36,280 –> 00:40:38,120
just happened to be passing
through.

861
00:40:38,400 –> 00:40:40,440
There’s absolutely no evidence
that they met.

862
00:40:40,440 –> 00:40:43,600
I’ve got to put that out there,
but they were all roughly in the

863
00:40:43,600 –> 00:40:47,960
UN building in Geneva in the
summer of 78, Lowenstein born

864
00:40:48,080 –> 00:40:51,520
Chapman.
I mean, you just, that’s such an

865
00:40:51,520 –> 00:40:55,360
insane coincidence again,
especially when you consider

866
00:40:55,360 –> 00:40:58,680
they’re all kind of in the same
area in Georgia and then they

867
00:40:58,680 –> 00:41:02,800
just like all happened to be at
the UN at the same time too.

868
00:41:02,800 –> 00:41:06,880
It’s almost as if someone’s
keeping tabs on someone here.

869
00:41:07,120 –> 00:41:10,440
It’s it’s extraordinary.
So the ball hasn’t finished yet.

870
00:41:10,440 –> 00:41:13,480
I mean, he’s extraordinary.
And this guy needs a mini, not a

871
00:41:13,480 –> 00:41:16,840
mini, a massive drama series.
Netflix needs to do a Peter

872
00:41:16,840 –> 00:41:20,160
Bourne serious, you know, based
on a true story.

873
00:41:20,160 –> 00:41:23,320
Just just tell this guy’s life.
It’s, it’s just, you know, you

874
00:41:23,320 –> 00:41:26,000
could bring in so many crazy
people into this guy’s life.

875
00:41:26,680 –> 00:41:30,200
So what does he do after that?
He decides to go and use his

876
00:41:30,280 –> 00:41:34,720
international contacts to help
secure releases of prisoners

877
00:41:34,720 –> 00:41:37,800
being held in Iraq, Cuba,
Bangladesh and other countries.

878
00:41:38,040 –> 00:41:42,880
So he’s become a kind of like an
international hostage release

879
00:41:42,880 –> 00:41:45,000
guy.
Just just just why wouldn’t you,

880
00:41:45,360 –> 00:41:48,880
you know, if you no doubt, yeah,
yeah, the cope probably helped

881
00:41:48,880 –> 00:41:51,320
him push his money and getting
tired or the travel just have a

882
00:41:51,400 –> 00:41:54,520
quick two and off you go to the
next country, do some more maybe

883
00:41:54,520 –> 00:41:56,120
brought maybe brought a bag with
him to look.

884
00:41:56,640 –> 00:41:59,360
Slide that across the table.
Let’s all have a few lines.

885
00:41:59,360 –> 00:42:01,560
Just let those prisoners go.
Come on, get him off that

886
00:42:01,560 –> 00:42:03,720
radiator.
We need to all go out.

887
00:42:03,720 –> 00:42:05,400
I’ve got some parties to attend.
So.

888
00:42:05,400 –> 00:42:06,800
So he’s doing that.
OK.

889
00:42:06,800 –> 00:42:08,720
Which is bizarre.
Utterly bizarre.

890
00:42:08,800 –> 00:42:11,280
And then in the mid 80s, he
decides that he wants to write a

891
00:42:11,280 –> 00:42:13,240
biography on Fidel Castro.
Oh, sure.

892
00:42:13,520 –> 00:42:18,200
OK, actually do right.
And what’s even more incredible,

893
00:42:18,280 –> 00:42:20,760
Captain Peter Bourne, a guy who
worked for the Nixon

894
00:42:20,760 –> 00:42:23,640
administration and the CART
administration, is allowed with

895
00:42:23,640 –> 00:42:27,520
open arms into Cuba and given
access to Fidel Castro’s

896
00:42:27,520 –> 00:42:28,720
archives.
Sure, sure, sure.

897
00:42:28,760 –> 00:42:31,520
Sure.
Nothing unusual about that.

898
00:42:31,800 –> 00:42:33,440
How the hell did he pull that
one off?

899
00:42:33,920 –> 00:42:36,760
Actually, at that time, yeah,
it’s so weird.

900
00:42:36,920 –> 00:42:38,880
So weird.
It’s a good book.

901
00:42:38,880 –> 00:42:41,880
It’s pro Castro book to the
point where I’ve heard whispers

902
00:42:41,880 –> 00:42:44,680
online where some people think
this may prove that Peter born

903
00:42:44,680 –> 00:42:47,640
as a Soviet double agent, maybe
you know, otherwise why would

904
00:42:47,640 –> 00:42:49,440
Castro let him in?
Right?

905
00:42:49,520 –> 00:42:52,440
It’s it’s very odd.
And he was given lots of access

906
00:42:52,440 –> 00:42:56,120
and then he was then allowed
after this favourable book was

907
00:42:56,120 –> 00:43:00,080
published to to set up a health
program in Cuba where American

908
00:43:00,080 –> 00:43:04,600
doctors were allowed to come
under a sort of medical program

909
00:43:04,680 –> 00:43:07,480
to work in Cuba.
So again, you know, if you want

910
00:43:07,480 –> 00:43:09,880
to get people in there.
Yeah, that’s exactly the kind of

911
00:43:09,880 –> 00:43:14,080
thing an intelligence agency
could exploit, and CIA always

912
00:43:14,080 –> 00:43:17,680
gets involved in shit like that.
Like, there’s absolutely no way

913
00:43:17,800 –> 00:43:20,840
that wasn’t a means of
infiltrating Cuba.

914
00:43:20,920 –> 00:43:23,160
He’s even American government
Titan.

915
00:43:23,200 –> 00:43:25,120
Ex American government Titan,
Yeah.

916
00:43:25,120 –> 00:43:28,520
Why would they not use him to,
you know, get he’s got, he’s got

917
00:43:28,520 –> 00:43:32,240
access to the Cuban archives.
Yeah, it’s it’s almost, it’s

918
00:43:32,280 –> 00:43:35,560
like if you, if you didn’t know
this was true, you’d think I was

919
00:43:35,560 –> 00:43:37,280
bullshitting you.
There’s no way that’s going to

920
00:43:37,280 –> 00:43:39,000
happen.
That’s the kind of detail you’d

921
00:43:39,240 –> 00:43:41,640
see in a movie and be like, all
right, plot hole.

922
00:43:41,800 –> 00:43:44,480
They’d never let him access to
those archives.

923
00:43:44,840 –> 00:43:47,800
I mean, yeah, there’s, there’s
more to that Cuba thing I I just

924
00:43:47,800 –> 00:43:50,320
don’t buy to see.
He just admired Castro and just

925
00:43:50,320 –> 00:43:54,440
decided to, you know, help their
medical problems, like getting

926
00:43:54,440 –> 00:43:56,480
American doctors in and then
writing this biography on this

927
00:43:56,480 –> 00:43:58,440
fascinating guy.
He fascinated him.

928
00:43:59,000 –> 00:44:01,640
I don’t buy it.
I just said something not, you

929
00:44:01,640 –> 00:44:04,560
know, but Peter Bourne,
obviously his official Wikipedia

930
00:44:04,560 –> 00:44:06,840
page doesn’t give you a lot of
detail.

931
00:44:07,280 –> 00:44:10,000
You need to go a bit deeper.
You know, he’s he’s kind of on

932
00:44:10,000 –> 00:44:11,560
the surface.
It’s like, wow, what a

933
00:44:11,560 –> 00:44:13,200
government heavyweight and what
a great guy.

934
00:44:13,200 –> 00:44:14,320
You have that little drug
problem.

935
00:44:14,320 –> 00:44:17,240
But you know, he’s an
international man of great

936
00:44:17,240 –> 00:44:19,760
standing, you know.
So anyway, so let’s get back to

937
00:44:19,760 –> 00:44:21,920
Lawrence team.
We forgot about poor old Al.

938
00:44:22,120 –> 00:44:25,520
So they meet at the UN is that
they’re born in love with Person

939
00:44:25,680 –> 00:44:26,720
I.
Don’t know there’s any

940
00:44:26,720 –> 00:44:28,200
connection there.
They will just stay at the same

941
00:44:28,200 –> 00:44:29,920
time.
So there’s kind of no Peter

942
00:44:29,920 –> 00:44:31,400
Bone, Peter born Lowenstein
thing.

943
00:44:31,400 –> 00:44:33,880
But what Lowenstein did is he
got married, had a couple of

944
00:44:33,880 –> 00:44:35,920
kids.
So he went down the Elton John

945
00:44:35,920 –> 00:44:38,760
route and just tried to hide
his, you know, his true

946
00:44:38,760 –> 00:44:42,400
sexuality, I think, and which is
very sad, but you know, you can

947
00:44:42,400 –> 00:44:45,800
imagine it in those times
difficult and especially if you

948
00:44:45,800 –> 00:44:47,800
want to be a politician, you
know, you got to you got to play

949
00:44:47,800 –> 00:44:49,360
the game.
The marriage obviously didn’t

950
00:44:49,360 –> 00:44:51,280
last that long.
I think it lasted 11 years and

951
00:44:51,280 –> 00:44:52,880
77.
They got divorced, obviously,

952
00:44:52,880 –> 00:44:54,760
and he started to then live open
is a gay man.

953
00:44:54,760 –> 00:44:58,120
So probably in 77 things would
possibly get any easier for gay

954
00:44:58,120 –> 00:44:59,520
men in America.
I’m not sure.

955
00:44:59,840 –> 00:45:03,880
I saw your excellent podcast on
the horrific AIDS stuff with

956
00:45:03,880 –> 00:45:07,080
Reagan.
Yeah, in 8182.

957
00:45:07,240 –> 00:45:09,960
So when that started to come in,
Reagan was hardly looking out

958
00:45:09,960 –> 00:45:12,800
for that disease, was he?
And looking out for the gay

959
00:45:12,800 –> 00:45:14,240
community.
Couldn’t care less, Goody.

960
00:45:14,240 –> 00:45:17,080
Let’s be honest, I was getting
blighted and they just looked

961
00:45:17,080 –> 00:45:19,120
the other way.
So on your recommendation, Adam,

962
00:45:19,120 –> 00:45:22,120
I watched the Reagan film just
to see if it was horrific as you

963
00:45:22,120 –> 00:45:25,120
said it was.
And boy, that was quite the

964
00:45:25,120 –> 00:45:27,200
watch.
That was quite the watch.

965
00:45:28,800 –> 00:45:30,640
Yeah, yeah, I digress.
How do you get away with

966
00:45:30,680 –> 00:45:32,400
something like that?
That really is quite

967
00:45:32,400 –> 00:45:33,440
astonishing.
Quite.

968
00:45:33,440 –> 00:45:35,040
You think the guy just saved the
world.

969
00:45:35,120 –> 00:45:37,440
But anyway, so get back to
Lowenstein.

970
00:45:37,440 –> 00:45:39,760
So Lowenstein is he’s trying in
politics again.

971
00:45:39,760 –> 00:45:42,880
He’s trying in, in, in, you
know, to become a a governor and

972
00:45:42,880 –> 00:45:44,080
he’s trying to get into the
Senate.

973
00:45:44,080 –> 00:45:46,360
He’s trying he’s trying lots of
different things, but it’s not

974
00:45:46,360 –> 00:45:48,200
working.
His his his career is just I

975
00:45:48,200 –> 00:45:51,120
think because of he wasn’t he
wasn’t getting the kind of

976
00:45:51,120 –> 00:45:53,960
winnable elections because of
who he was in his background.

977
00:45:53,960 –> 00:45:56,640
I think he was kind of being
sidelined into into elections he

978
00:45:56,640 –> 00:45:58,640
could never win.
Well, interestingly, one of his

979
00:45:58,720 –> 00:46:01,400
friends at the time was Donald
Rumsfeld.

980
00:46:01,560 –> 00:46:03,680
Yeah, that’s so weird.
Yeah.

981
00:46:03,680 –> 00:46:05,040
And you know what they like to
do together?

982
00:46:05,360 –> 00:46:07,240
Tell people what they do.
Wrestle.

983
00:46:07,600 –> 00:46:12,360
They like to wrestle together.
Wrestle.

984
00:46:13,000 –> 00:46:15,320
Did she get any stranger than
that?

985
00:46:15,400 –> 00:46:19,640
I don’t have a single friend
that I’ve ever thought, you know

986
00:46:19,640 –> 00:46:21,720
what we should do this weekend?
Wrestle.

987
00:46:21,760 –> 00:46:23,360
Let’s just, let’s just wrestle,
dude.

988
00:46:24,040 –> 00:46:26,120
Come on.
That’s crazy.

989
00:46:26,160 –> 00:46:28,760
I mean, when I saw that detail,
I just thought, I mean, this is

990
00:46:28,760 –> 00:46:30,800
going to be a movie.
It’s just you can’t make this

991
00:46:30,800 –> 00:46:32,880
stuff up.
So, yeah, Donald was a big

992
00:46:32,880 –> 00:46:35,160
friend of the Democrat
Lowenstein.

993
00:46:35,360 –> 00:46:36,680
I I don’t know what’s going on
there.

994
00:46:36,760 –> 00:46:39,840
I I I I I don’t think we’ll ever
know, will we?

995
00:46:39,920 –> 00:46:41,160
Let’s face it, they’re both dead
now.

996
00:46:41,640 –> 00:46:43,400
So, yeah, we leave that one for
imagination.

997
00:46:43,680 –> 00:46:46,800
So what happened then was.
And again, this is where it

998
00:46:46,800 –> 00:46:50,440
starts to get weird again.
Al Lowenstein decides to become

999
00:46:50,440 –> 00:46:53,840
interested in the RFK
assassination and he decides

1000
00:46:53,840 –> 00:46:57,480
that he wants to start talking
to RFK assassination researchers

1001
00:46:57,480 –> 00:46:59,480
in the mid 70s.
Now, mate Brussel, who was in

1002
00:46:59,480 –> 00:47:02,840
that kind of milieu, thought he
was a fake and he didn’t really

1003
00:47:02,840 –> 00:47:06,680
care about the assassination and
she thought he was Acia asset

1004
00:47:06,680 –> 00:47:08,560
and she could be right.
I think there’s a lot of

1005
00:47:08,560 –> 00:47:10,760
evidence that you might have
been the CIA asset, but he’s

1006
00:47:10,760 –> 00:47:14,680
seen sincere and if you go on
YouTube, you can see a Al

1007
00:47:14,680 –> 00:47:17,040
Lowenstein interview that he did
with I think it’s William

1008
00:47:17,040 –> 00:47:19,960
Buckley, the famous talk show
host in the 70s.

1009
00:47:19,960 –> 00:47:22,320
I think it’s William Buckley.
It’s something Buckley who was

1010
00:47:22,320 –> 00:47:26,640
an who was an admitted CIA asset
himself, who worked with E out

1011
00:47:26,640 –> 00:47:28,040
Hunt.
So again, all these incredible

1012
00:47:28,040 –> 00:47:31,400
links together and on this show,
you know, I’ve seen the YouTube

1013
00:47:31,400 –> 00:47:32,480
clue.
It’s a fascinating clue.

1014
00:47:32,480 –> 00:47:34,040
Great 70s clothes going on
there.

1015
00:47:34,840 –> 00:47:36,240
He now he says, you know, he
lays it out.

1016
00:47:36,240 –> 00:47:38,960
I I think serum serum was Patsy
and I think it was, you know, it

1017
00:47:38,960 –> 00:47:41,040
wasn’t wasn’t right.
It was shot from the back, you

1018
00:47:41,040 –> 00:47:43,360
know, very similar to John
Lennon Chapman thing.

1019
00:47:43,640 –> 00:47:45,680
She was at the front.
Bullets come from the other

1020
00:47:45,680 –> 00:47:48,000
side.
So that’s interesting.

1021
00:47:48,080 –> 00:47:52,040
But then just before the
assassination, Al starts to, I

1022
00:47:52,040 –> 00:47:55,680
think, give away the position
that he’s really in and he

1023
00:47:55,680 –> 00:48:00,680
starts to kind of talk about
dark forces that kind of and and

1024
00:48:00,680 –> 00:48:03,920
that’s probably best if I read
it actually, Adam, if that’s OK,

1025
00:48:03,920 –> 00:48:05,920
I’ll read, I’ll read the quote
because I think it’s quite.

1026
00:48:05,920 –> 00:48:07,720
Telling I actually have it in
the notes.

1027
00:48:07,760 –> 00:48:08,800
Too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1028
00:48:08,800 –> 00:48:11,640
Where, where he is and where,
where There might be a problem

1029
00:48:11,640 –> 00:48:14,800
here, he says, if the White
House, the CIA, the FBI, the IRS

1030
00:48:14,800 –> 00:48:17,240
and other prime instruments of
an impartial government could be

1031
00:48:17,240 –> 00:48:19,560
used against civil rights
groups, members of Congress and

1032
00:48:19,560 –> 00:48:22,680
anyone else who incurred
official displeasure, clearly

1033
00:48:22,680 –> 00:48:25,360
someone somewhere might have
organized some of the events

1034
00:48:25,360 –> 00:48:28,040
that changed America.
They are very powerful.

1035
00:48:28,040 –> 00:48:30,440
They have allies in politics,
the professions, the media’s,

1036
00:48:30,440 –> 00:48:32,920
and the banks.
In the end, no one knows what is

1037
00:48:32,920 –> 00:48:35,360
in the ultimate computer.
What a great term, the ultimate

1038
00:48:35,520 –> 00:48:38,080
computer.
When When it becomes unclear

1039
00:48:38,080 –> 00:48:40,400
what are the forces of law
enforcement and which of

1040
00:48:40,400 –> 00:48:43,400
organized crime, then it’s not
difficult to understand why an

1041
00:48:43,400 –> 00:48:45,480
atmosphere of fear develops.
This is the clincher.

1042
00:48:45,840 –> 00:48:48,720
It takes no imagination at all
to understand that things can be

1043
00:48:48,720 –> 00:48:50,600
planted in rooms that can be
raided.

1044
00:48:50,680 –> 00:48:52,560
Who doesn’t have something they
don’t want known?

1045
00:48:52,560 –> 00:48:54,640
Who doesn’t have a relationship
that can be made to look

1046
00:48:54,640 –> 00:48:57,440
embarrassing now for a gay guy
in the closet who’s trying to

1047
00:48:57,440 –> 00:48:59,760
get into politics?
That to me, she tells me he’s

1048
00:48:59,800 –> 00:49:01,920
owned by someone and he’s
compromised.

1049
00:49:02,080 –> 00:49:05,320
There’s no question about it.
And you just, you know, you just

1050
00:49:05,320 –> 00:49:06,800
have to feel sorry for the guy,
really.

1051
00:49:06,880 –> 00:49:09,400
He couldn’t be his true self.
And I think he was being

1052
00:49:09,400 –> 00:49:11,560
manipulated by dark forces, no
question.

1053
00:49:11,560 –> 00:49:16,040
And one thing that we haven’t
mentioned yet, that’s in the

1054
00:49:16,040 –> 00:49:20,360
article, he, when he first
starts getting into politics,

1055
00:49:20,360 –> 00:49:25,240
one launches a dump Johnson
campaign that in part helps get

1056
00:49:25,280 –> 00:49:28,120
Nixon elected.
But then he becomes

1057
00:49:28,200 –> 00:49:31,560
disillusioned with his
experience running for office.

1058
00:49:31,640 –> 00:49:36,400
And so he runs a dump Nixon
campaign and ends up #7 on

1059
00:49:36,400 –> 00:49:41,120
Nixon’s famous enemies list.
Yeah, yeah, which is not a good

1060
00:49:41,120 –> 00:49:43,000
list to be on.
No, no.

1061
00:49:43,200 –> 00:49:45,960
No, he would not want to be in
the wrong side of that guy.

1062
00:49:46,560 –> 00:49:49,280
So yeah, I think apparently he
was quite proud of being on that

1063
00:49:49,280 –> 00:49:51,480
list, wasn’t he?
But I think steeped down, I

1064
00:49:51,480 –> 00:49:54,120
think he would have known how
dangerous things were getting

1065
00:49:54,120 –> 00:49:56,320
for him.
And there’s people talk about

1066
00:49:56,320 –> 00:49:59,520
when he was doing his RFK, the
investigation, you know, how

1067
00:49:59,520 –> 00:50:01,480
much did he learn?
Did he learn stuff that they

1068
00:50:01,480 –> 00:50:02,840
want to silence him for?
I don’t know.

1069
00:50:02,840 –> 00:50:06,560
Maybe we, we just don’t know.
You know, he seemed very sincere

1070
00:50:06,560 –> 00:50:08,640
to me on that William Buckley
talk show that he was very much

1071
00:50:08,640 –> 00:50:10,840
trying to get to the truth.
I think a guy in his position

1072
00:50:10,840 –> 00:50:12,960
probably could have got to more
truth than anyone else can

1073
00:50:12,960 –> 00:50:15,520
because obviously he’s inside
the machine somewhat.

1074
00:50:16,320 –> 00:50:19,520
But, you know, it’s it’s by the
time he was shot by Dennis

1075
00:50:19,520 –> 00:50:21,840
Sweeney, he was working for Ted
Kennedy, as we say.

1076
00:50:21,880 –> 00:50:24,040
You know, he was he was
mobilizing gay activists to work

1077
00:50:24,040 –> 00:50:26,360
for Ted Kennedy as well, which I
suspect would have upset quite a

1078
00:50:26,360 –> 00:50:28,440
lot of people on the far right
things.

1079
00:50:28,440 –> 00:50:31,800
So, yeah, he was possibly seen
as a problem for lots of

1080
00:50:31,800 –> 00:50:35,080
different reasons.
And and well, no, I don’t think

1081
00:50:35,080 –> 00:50:37,600
we’ll ever know for sure what
the reasons were there.

1082
00:50:37,600 –> 00:50:39,280
There’s always an outside chance
here, Adam.

1083
00:50:39,280 –> 00:50:41,160
Yeah, we need to put it out
there that Dennis Sweeney was

1084
00:50:41,160 –> 00:50:43,440
just a crazy guy who had some
voices in his head and just

1085
00:50:43,440 –> 00:50:45,400
absolutely.
And, you know, we that’s always

1086
00:50:45,400 –> 00:50:48,080
there as a possibility.
But I think when I tell you

1087
00:50:48,080 –> 00:50:50,840
these last little bits,
especially about what Mary King

1088
00:50:50,840 –> 00:50:53,880
said in her book, it starts to
look a little bit more sinister.

1089
00:50:53,960 –> 00:50:55,720
But.
But just just leading up to the

1090
00:50:55,720 –> 00:50:58,320
murder, just to finish off with
Dennis Sweeney, He, he, he kind

1091
00:50:58,320 –> 00:51:01,200
of, he started to sort of write,
write to his friends about his

1092
00:51:01,200 –> 00:51:03,120
unravelling and he sort of said,
you know, there’s, there’s

1093
00:51:03,120 –> 00:51:05,960
psychological, I quote,
psychological warfare is being

1094
00:51:05,960 –> 00:51:08,480
waged on me.
I’m fairly certain that I have

1095
00:51:08,480 –> 00:51:09,920
software that I wasn’t born
with.

1096
00:51:10,360 –> 00:51:12,520
I’ve done everything I can to
locate it and remove it.

1097
00:51:12,720 –> 00:51:14,520
My efforts have all been
failures and usually

1098
00:51:14,520 –> 00:51:16,960
self-destructive.
No doubt in the 60s I was party

1099
00:51:16,960 –> 00:51:19,360
to some behaviour that was
politically irresponsible.

1100
00:51:19,760 –> 00:51:22,040
If that incurred a social debt
that I’m willing to pay it in

1101
00:51:22,040 –> 00:51:26,240
reasonable terms.
So it’s, it’s kind of, he went

1102
00:51:26,240 –> 00:51:29,440
to lots of clinics, like Mark
Chapman, went to see lots of

1103
00:51:29,440 –> 00:51:32,080
psychiatrists will never really
know who all these people were.

1104
00:51:32,160 –> 00:51:34,720
So he’s constantly being
monitored and he’s just drifting

1105
00:51:34,720 –> 00:51:36,600
through the 70s having a
horrible time.

1106
00:51:36,880 –> 00:51:39,680
So by the time he by the time he
got to that, you know, his

1107
00:51:39,680 –> 00:51:42,760
father died, you know, he was
just having a dreadful, dreadful

1108
00:51:42,760 –> 00:51:44,160
time.
And by the time I think he got

1109
00:51:44,200 –> 00:51:46,800
to our largest office, I think
he was ready to snap.

1110
00:51:47,120 –> 00:51:50,320
But there’s a lot about that
murder that doesn’t quite add up

1111
00:51:50,320 –> 00:51:52,480
with what Al Lownstein said
about, you know, did they get

1112
00:51:52,480 –> 00:51:55,240
the guy who did it, the
different sounding bullets that

1113
00:51:55,240 –> 00:51:57,680
the secretary heard, the fact
that the telephone installer was

1114
00:51:57,680 –> 00:51:59,080
probably in the room at the same
time.

1115
00:51:59,400 –> 00:52:01,880
The telephone installer is the
guy who lays down the whole

1116
00:52:01,880 –> 00:52:03,560
narrative of the gun being taken
away.

1117
00:52:03,560 –> 00:52:05,880
He was very calm.
No one knows to stay with this

1118
00:52:05,880 –> 00:52:09,040
telephone installer was media
didn’t bother doing their job.

1119
00:52:09,040 –> 00:52:11,960
Again, as with the John Lennon
witnesses, they don’t bother

1120
00:52:11,960 –> 00:52:13,840
asking any names.
They don’t bother looking to

1121
00:52:13,840 –> 00:52:15,440
deeply who you are, where you
come from.

1122
00:52:15,760 –> 00:52:19,600
So it’s all all very troubling,
let’s put it that way.

1123
00:52:19,600 –> 00:52:24,080
And, and Peter Bourne is just
off after his Cuba book more

1124
00:52:24,080 –> 00:52:27,040
NGOs.
He’s he’s, he’s doing water

1125
00:52:27,040 –> 00:52:29,080
stuff.
He’s trying to clean up water

1126
00:52:29,080 –> 00:52:31,320
around the world.
And he’s just, you know, he’s,

1127
00:52:31,320 –> 00:52:33,720
he’s, he’s just kind of write
lots of different books about

1128
00:52:33,720 –> 00:52:36,920
obviously Jimmy Carter years,
his glory years and, and no

1129
00:52:36,920 –> 00:52:40,880
doubt helping to release
hostages up until up until he

1130
00:52:40,880 –> 00:52:43,160
can’t get on a plane anymore.
And you can still find that

1131
00:52:43,160 –> 00:52:44,880
they’re still alive.
Mary King and Peter Bourne is

1132
00:52:44,880 –> 00:52:48,240
still alive.
They still, they still go on

1133
00:52:48,240 –> 00:52:50,640
YouTube and talk about their
glory days of saving the planet.

1134
00:52:50,680 –> 00:52:52,960
You know, they’re very much kind
of like kind of like like to

1135
00:52:52,960 –> 00:52:56,920
sort of push out that Mary King
pretty much save the civil

1136
00:52:56,920 –> 00:52:59,800
rights movement in the South in
the 60s on her own, you know,

1137
00:52:59,800 –> 00:53:02,240
and Peter born and saved the
world, you know, from, from,

1138
00:53:02,400 –> 00:53:05,120
from dreadful drugs, even though
some of them he quite likes

1139
00:53:06,040 –> 00:53:08,480
evidently.
So to get to the sort of final

1140
00:53:08,520 –> 00:53:10,560
thoughts here.
And this is where it starts to,

1141
00:53:10,600 –> 00:53:14,560
I think, really get as a good
conclusion to the, to the piece,

1142
00:53:14,960 –> 00:53:17,760
Like we just said earlier, Adam,
I wasn’t sure either because he

1143
00:53:17,760 –> 00:53:20,640
did sound like a guy had a lot
of mental illness, a lot of

1144
00:53:20,640 –> 00:53:22,840
mental conditions that lots of
people get.

1145
00:53:22,880 –> 00:53:26,200
You know, he could easily just,
you know, be hearing voices.

1146
00:53:26,280 –> 00:53:28,800
And he said because he’s
schizophrenic, you know, we know

1147
00:53:28,800 –> 00:53:31,280
this is what happens with
schizophrenic patients.

1148
00:53:31,280 –> 00:53:35,320
But Mary King in her
autobiography gave something

1149
00:53:35,320 –> 00:53:38,200
away very nearly.
It’s a big, thick book class.

1150
00:53:38,200 –> 00:53:39,600
It took me a long time to wage
through it.

1151
00:53:39,600 –> 00:53:42,040
And there’s a lot of Mary King
is the greatest woman in the

1152
00:53:42,040 –> 00:53:43,280
world stuff.
You got a way through.

1153
00:53:43,800 –> 00:53:46,160
But when you get through it, she
said this line near the end.

1154
00:53:46,160 –> 00:53:48,160
And again, I’ll read it.
She said the death of Al

1155
00:53:48,160 –> 00:53:51,920
Lowenstein and the ruination of
Dennis Sweeney may have been

1156
00:53:51,920 –> 00:53:55,120
caused by the traumas of the
civil rights movement battering

1157
00:53:55,280 –> 00:53:57,440
what may have already been, you
know, fragile balance.

1158
00:53:57,440 –> 00:53:58,600
And then here comes the
clincher.

1159
00:53:58,720 –> 00:54:01,960
I was shocked and dismayed, but
later learned that this was a

1160
00:54:01,960 –> 00:54:06,200
mental aberration that had been
experienced in similar terms by

1161
00:54:06,200 –> 00:54:10,520
at least 4 individuals I knew at
the time.

1162
00:54:10,640 –> 00:54:12,040
That’s odd.
Let’s get back to our

1163
00:54:12,040 –> 00:54:13,440
coincidence.
Yeah.

1164
00:54:13,600 –> 00:54:15,920
Tolerance here.
My tolerance has now reached

1165
00:54:15,920 –> 00:54:19,720
this limit with that because
four people hearing voices in

1166
00:54:19,720 –> 00:54:22,520
Mary King’s group in the South
in Mississippi at the same time

1167
00:54:22,840 –> 00:54:24,800
when this dentist was doing his
stuff.

1168
00:54:24,880 –> 00:54:27,440
That’s standing.
That’s pretty damning for me.

1169
00:54:27,440 –> 00:54:30,040
That sounds like a program.
That sounds like, you know, it

1170
00:54:30,040 –> 00:54:33,760
sounds MK Ultrish.
And the part where born and king

1171
00:54:34,040 –> 00:54:37,640
meet and get married, you know,
it could just be, well, they

1172
00:54:37,640 –> 00:54:40,240
move in the same circles.
They kind of work in the same

1173
00:54:40,240 –> 00:54:42,840
fields.
But also, it seems like both of

1174
00:54:42,840 –> 00:54:45,320
them at various points just go
work in different fields that

1175
00:54:45,320 –> 00:54:47,880
they weren’t working in before,
which is weird.

1176
00:54:47,960 –> 00:54:50,760
But also it could just be that
they’re fucking government

1177
00:54:50,760 –> 00:54:52,680
agents and that they set this
up.

1178
00:54:52,720 –> 00:54:59,320
Yeah, it’s not, I think, a big
leap to think, oh, was maybe the

1179
00:54:59,320 –> 00:55:03,360
guy who was #7 on Nixon’s
enemies list, killed by right

1180
00:55:03,360 –> 00:55:06,120
wingers of some sort.
That’s not impossible to believe

1181
00:55:06,120 –> 00:55:08,560
at all.
Yeah, Was the Donald Rumsfeld

1182
00:55:08,560 –> 00:55:12,000
thing, Was that awkward?
Was that difficult for Donald?

1183
00:55:12,080 –> 00:55:13,720
Yeah, Yeah.
That’s a good point.

1184
00:55:13,720 –> 00:55:17,200
You know, a rising star in in
Reagan’s administration and

1185
00:55:17,200 –> 00:55:20,600
Bush’s you know, I don’t know,
I’m just, I’m just grasping at

1186
00:55:20,600 –> 00:55:21,680
straws here.
I don’t know, I.

1187
00:55:22,200 –> 00:55:25,640
Mean I’m always willing to
accept that Donald Rumsfeld had

1188
00:55:25,640 –> 00:55:27,960
a role in killing someone.
Yeah, that’s.

1189
00:55:28,000 –> 00:55:29,880
That’s easy to make.
That one’s very.

1190
00:55:29,880 –> 00:55:31,720
Easy, we’re just talking one
person.

1191
00:55:31,720 –> 00:55:35,120
In this case not.
Yeah, yeah, he prefers half a

1192
00:55:35,120 –> 00:55:37,480
country normally, but well.
Snap for him.

1193
00:55:38,520 –> 00:55:40,800
Yeah, just yeah, just yeah, a
little Odo.

1194
00:55:41,440 –> 00:55:45,000
But just to get to one thing we
missed about Peter Bourne in the

1195
00:55:45,000 –> 00:55:47,200
mid 80s, eighty three I think it
was.

1196
00:55:47,240 –> 00:55:51,000
He just happens to be in in
Grenada right with his with his

1197
00:55:51,000 –> 00:55:53,440
dad, who happens to be work at
the university.

1198
00:55:53,680 –> 00:55:55,880
This happens to be the
university that Ronald Reagan

1199
00:55:55,880 –> 00:55:59,240
used as the excuse for getting
American troops to go in and

1200
00:55:59,240 –> 00:56:01,560
save them because they’re under
peril for this new leftist

1201
00:56:01,560 –> 00:56:02,960
revolutionary government that
came in.

1202
00:56:03,240 –> 00:56:06,360
And who’s there?
Who is there just before the

1203
00:56:06,360 –> 00:56:09,000
Grenada invasion by American
forces?

1204
00:56:09,040 –> 00:56:12,040
Jeffrey Born and Peter Born at
the UNI.

1205
00:56:12,200 –> 00:56:16,320
And together we haven’t gotten
into, I think the most damning

1206
00:56:16,320 –> 00:56:21,720
detail in terms of whether Peter
Born was CIA connected or not.

1207
00:56:21,760 –> 00:56:23,880
He is the basis for the Jason
Bourne.

1208
00:56:23,880 –> 00:56:26,080
Character Let’s get to it.
Let’s get to it.

1209
00:56:26,080 –> 00:56:28,760
I mean that name kept horn to me
throughout the research.

1210
00:56:28,760 –> 00:56:32,400
Not get it Bourne Bourne God,
it’s so weird that Jason Bourne

1211
00:56:32,400 –> 00:56:37,480
is based on AMK ultra program
guy and this guy is allegedly

1212
00:56:37,480 –> 00:56:40,720
possibly involved in MK ultra
facilities.

1213
00:56:40,800 –> 00:56:43,560
That’s weird.
So I, I, I kind of just you

1214
00:56:43,560 –> 00:56:45,840
know, Peter Bolen, he’s been
this is what he’s been he’s been

1215
00:56:45,840 –> 00:56:47,360
a Vietnam special forces
soldier.

1216
00:56:47,360 –> 00:56:49,040
He’s been a drug saw he’s been a
health saw.

1217
00:56:49,280 –> 00:56:52,080
He’s been a psychiatric
researcher, hostage negotiator,

1218
00:56:52,440 –> 00:56:55,240
a clinician, a pharmacist, a
senior government official, an

1219
00:56:55,240 –> 00:56:58,240
international civil servant, a
diplomat, an author and the

1220
00:56:58,240 –> 00:57:01,200
creator of Jimmy Carter.
And that’s quite ACV, right?

1221
00:57:01,200 –> 00:57:03,920
So I thought, I don’t need to
put anything more on this guy.

1222
00:57:03,920 –> 00:57:07,400
He’s like, he’s clearly he
should have 10 seasons of TV

1223
00:57:07,400 –> 00:57:10,480
shows about him, you know, just
and just based on a true story.

1224
00:57:10,480 –> 00:57:11,800
Can you imagine how amazing it
will be?

1225
00:57:12,320 –> 00:57:14,080
But I just thought the born
thing kept coming to me.

1226
00:57:14,080 –> 00:57:16,200
So I thought I’ll just go to his
website again, which again, is

1227
00:57:16,200 –> 00:57:17,800
hard to get now because it’s
kind of buried.

1228
00:57:17,800 –> 00:57:20,600
But I recommend people go to
Wayback Machine and find it.

1229
00:57:20,720 –> 00:57:23,960
And believe it or not, good old
Peter, who has an ego at the

1230
00:57:23,960 –> 00:57:27,120
size of the planet, was thinking
the exact same things we were at

1231
00:57:27,120 –> 00:57:29,120
him.
He was thinking, Chase, the born

1232
00:57:29,120 –> 00:57:31,880
character, he’s got a name
similar to me.

1233
00:57:32,120 –> 00:57:35,440
I wonder if Robert Ludlum, you
know, knew about me or heard

1234
00:57:35,440 –> 00:57:38,680
about me.
So apparently Peter discussed

1235
00:57:38,680 –> 00:57:42,760
this with his father.
Jeffrey met Robert Ludlum, and

1236
00:57:42,760 –> 00:57:46,160
he said, he said to Robert
Ludlum, he said, you know,

1237
00:57:46,560 –> 00:57:48,080
what’s the thing with the born
name?

1238
00:57:48,160 –> 00:57:51,240
You know what, what’s it about?
And, and Robert Ludlum said to

1239
00:57:51,240 –> 00:57:54,200
Geoffrey Bourne that he partly
got inspiration for his born

1240
00:57:54,200 –> 00:57:56,600
stories from reading newspapers
and especially the Washington

1241
00:57:56,600 –> 00:58:00,400
Post about Peter Bourne.
And then his father said to him,

1242
00:58:00,600 –> 00:58:03,880
so are you confirming that the
Jason Bourne character was fired

1243
00:58:03,880 –> 00:58:06,280
by what you heard and read about
my son Peter?

1244
00:58:06,320 –> 00:58:10,280
And Robert Ludlam, who a lot of
people think also was a an

1245
00:58:10,280 –> 00:58:15,720
intelligence asset, said, yes, I
based Jason Bourne on your son

1246
00:58:15,800 –> 00:58:18,000
Peter Bourne.
And that is not known.

1247
00:58:18,200 –> 00:58:21,600
That’s just like, and Peter
Bourne put this, he put it in a

1248
00:58:21,600 –> 00:58:23,920
blog on his website.
He’s proud of this.

1249
00:58:24,000 –> 00:58:26,000
He’s like Jason Bourne.
It’s me.

1250
00:58:27,440 –> 00:58:30,200
Jason Bourne’s an MK Ultra.
Sassy, you fool.

1251
00:58:31,000 –> 00:58:33,640
You’ve been to MK Ultra
facilities and you’re not

1252
00:58:33,640 –> 00:58:35,720
putting two and two together
here that people might start to

1253
00:58:35,720 –> 00:58:37,800
think this is a bit sinister to
this guy, that is.

1254
00:58:38,080 –> 00:58:39,840
Fascinating.
And it’s incredible.

1255
00:58:40,080 –> 00:58:42,760
That’s the other part of this
that I cannot believe.

1256
00:58:42,760 –> 00:58:47,640
I’ve never heard that Jason
Bourne is based on an actual

1257
00:58:47,840 –> 00:58:49,840
guy.
I had never heard that before

1258
00:58:49,840 –> 00:58:52,720
reading.
Call Peter Bond, who was the

1259
00:58:52,720 –> 00:58:56,240
creator of Jimmy Carter.
I mean, you, you, you can’t make

1260
00:58:56,600 –> 00:58:58,520
why this is not.
I mean, I thought when the

1261
00:58:58,520 –> 00:59:00,480
article went out, I didn’t, I
didn’t push it.

1262
00:59:00,800 –> 00:59:04,080
I’ve given up approaching
mainstream media outlets now.

1263
00:59:04,160 –> 00:59:07,840
I just I’m tired of rejections.
I know people who work for big

1264
00:59:08,240 –> 00:59:11,400
Main Street newspapers, friends,
and I went to them with my lemon

1265
00:59:11,400 –> 00:59:13,760
stuff and they went a bit scared
to go.

1266
00:59:13,760 –> 00:59:15,040
I’m not going to go there.
It’s too scary.

1267
00:59:15,360 –> 00:59:17,560
So I thought I’m not going to
waste my time together anymore

1268
00:59:17,560 –> 00:59:19,560
at these guys.
But I’m amazed I was pick this

1269
00:59:19,560 –> 00:59:22,880
up because this is, you know,
Jason Bourne is a very famous

1270
00:59:22,880 –> 00:59:25,280
fictional character.
And Robert Ludlam, the story of

1271
00:59:25,280 –> 00:59:26,560
Robert Ludlam is very
interesting.

1272
00:59:26,560 –> 00:59:30,440
He died a very mysterious death.
You know, his second wife, who

1273
00:59:30,560 –> 00:59:33,040
was not suited to him when he
was with her.

1274
00:59:33,040 –> 00:59:35,640
He ended up burning himself
alive in his armchair.

1275
00:59:35,800 –> 00:59:37,280
Jesus.
Yeah.

1276
00:59:37,280 –> 00:59:38,720
Yeah.
Burning himself for live in his

1277
00:59:38,720 –> 00:59:42,120
armchair and when they fancy
fire every session laugh.

1278
00:59:42,120 –> 00:59:45,000
It’s not it’s not funny.
When the fire people turned up

1279
00:59:45,840 –> 00:59:49,280
they they they kind of saw the
ex-wife drunk in the kitchen,

1280
00:59:49,280 –> 00:59:52,040
not trying to save him.
He’d kind of like almost burned

1281
00:59:52,040 –> 00:59:53,120
to death.
They’d managed to get into

1282
00:59:53,120 –> 00:59:54,800
hospital.
He was kind of just a lie be

1283
00:59:54,800 –> 00:59:56,640
diagnosed.
But obviously she’s in the

1284
00:59:56,640 –> 01:00:00,720
kitchen not helping, smoking a
cigarette, having a drink, not

1285
01:00:00,720 –> 01:00:03,800
caring a jot.
Her husband’s burning alive in

1286
01:00:03,800 –> 01:00:06,200
the other room.
And she commits suicide, I

1287
01:00:06,240 –> 01:00:09,160
think, about a year later.
And the Robert Ludlam estate is

1288
01:00:09,160 –> 01:00:13,120
very mysterious and, and it’s
kind of quite tangled.

1289
01:00:13,120 –> 01:00:15,080
I tried to look into it, who
owned the rights and stuff.

1290
01:00:15,160 –> 01:00:17,720
Good luck anyone trying to
untangle the Robert Ludlam

1291
01:00:17,960 –> 01:00:20,560
estate rights and who owns what.
But it’s kind of.

1292
01:00:20,720 –> 01:00:22,440
Yeah, it is.
I think there’s a Robert Ludlam

1293
01:00:22,520 –> 01:00:25,360
story there.
I think his nephew wrote a book

1294
01:00:25,360 –> 01:00:27,440
on the murder, and we call it a
murder.

1295
01:00:27,680 –> 01:00:29,200
He thinks it’s a murder.
He doesn’t think it’s an

1296
01:00:29,200 –> 01:00:31,160
accident.
Yeah, there’s more there.

1297
01:00:31,160 –> 01:00:32,200
There’s more to come from
Ludlam.

1298
01:00:32,200 –> 01:00:35,080
And Ludlam, I think told a lot
of his friends and family at the

1299
01:00:35,080 –> 01:00:36,360
time that he was an intelligence
asset.

1300
01:00:36,360 –> 01:00:38,640
And we know, we know he worked
for the the military.

1301
01:00:39,120 –> 01:00:40,920
So before he started writing his
Bourne books.

1302
01:00:40,920 –> 01:00:43,800
So someone like Ludlam would
have known all about people, I’m

1303
01:00:43,800 –> 01:00:45,760
pretty sure.
You know, I think he would.

1304
01:00:45,760 –> 01:00:47,800
He would have had his measure
from a very early day.

1305
01:00:47,920 –> 01:00:51,920
And you know, I’ll never look at
the Jason Bourne films in the

1306
01:00:51,920 –> 01:00:55,160
same light again.
Yeah, that is such an insane

1307
01:00:55,320 –> 01:00:58,400
detail that, yeah, I had never
heard.

1308
01:00:58,720 –> 01:01:05,200
One last thing about Sweeney
that I found really interesting

1309
01:01:05,320 –> 01:01:08,200
is 1.
He never really went to prison

1310
01:01:08,200 –> 01:01:10,400
for what he did.
He was just hospitalized.

1311
01:01:10,640 –> 01:01:13,760
And it seems like his
schizophrenia just cured itself.

1312
01:01:14,040 –> 01:01:15,520
The the doctors said they were
amazed.

1313
01:01:15,520 –> 01:01:17,360
They said they were amazed, they
said almost.

1314
01:01:17,440 –> 01:01:19,800
You know in a matter of weeks he
was self cured.

1315
01:01:19,800 –> 01:01:21,880
Yeah.
I wonder if any doctor was like,

1316
01:01:22,120 –> 01:01:25,880
it’s almost like, I don’t know,
let’s say the CIA was firing

1317
01:01:25,880 –> 01:01:28,360
something at him to make him
hear voices, and then they just

1318
01:01:28,360 –> 01:01:30,600
stopped.
I know it wouldn’t do that, but

1319
01:01:30,760 –> 01:01:33,480
it seems like that.
It does sound like that, isn’t

1320
01:01:33,480 –> 01:01:34,160
it?
It does.

1321
01:01:34,160 –> 01:01:37,640
I mean, yeah, they were amazed.
And then he just in 2000, I

1322
01:01:37,640 –> 01:01:40,360
think he’s released and no one
ever heard them since.

1323
01:01:40,880 –> 01:01:43,640
He’s a bit like Peter Borne.
He’s been allowed to be just

1324
01:01:43,640 –> 01:01:45,800
kind of forgotten about and
pushed under the carpet.

1325
01:01:45,800 –> 01:01:47,560
And, you know, you’ve heard of
Dean notices.

1326
01:01:47,560 –> 01:01:48,800
Yeah.
I don’t even know where, where

1327
01:01:49,240 –> 01:01:51,280
the government in the UK tell
the press not to cover

1328
01:01:51,280 –> 01:01:52,320
something, right.
Yeah.

1329
01:01:52,480 –> 01:01:55,040
I, I think, I think with Peter
Borne, the whole world has Dean

1330
01:01:55,040 –> 01:01:56,760
noticed him.
I think all the world’s media

1331
01:01:56,760 –> 01:01:59,520
just look the other way with
Peter Borne, because the story

1332
01:01:59,520 –> 01:02:02,240
I’ve given you is, you know, I,
I spent six months on covering

1333
01:02:02,240 –> 01:02:03,600
all that, but I’m certain
there’s more.

1334
01:02:03,600 –> 01:02:07,960
You know, I I’m, I’m deep in 11
stuff, so I couldn’t go as far

1335
01:02:07,960 –> 01:02:10,960
as I wanted to go.
And this kind of this article

1336
01:02:11,000 –> 01:02:13,960
got way bigger than I wanted to
get, but I had to a bit like a

1337
01:02:13,960 –> 01:02:16,200
Lennon once once you started
covering this stuff, be like, I

1338
01:02:16,200 –> 01:02:17,960
need to keep going here.
This is incredible.

1339
01:02:18,680 –> 01:02:19,720
You know the world needs to
know.

1340
01:02:19,720 –> 01:02:23,040
Yeah, Peter Bourne seems like he
could at least be a book of his

1341
01:02:23,040 –> 01:02:25,000
own.
Definitely, yeah.

1342
01:02:25,240 –> 01:02:27,880
But you know, an objective book,
not not a Peter Bourne book.

1343
01:02:28,000 –> 01:02:30,320
I think that would be rather
dull read.

1344
01:02:30,520 –> 01:02:34,240
But he apparently he hangs out
at and this is on his Wikipedia

1345
01:02:34,240 –> 01:02:36,200
because he does, he does like to
leave crumbs.

1346
01:02:36,200 –> 01:02:38,000
Peter.
He hangs out at a place in

1347
01:02:38,000 –> 01:02:40,120
London, Knightsbridge called the
Special Forces Club.

1348
01:02:40,240 –> 01:02:42,920
And apparently the Special
Forces Club is the intelligence

1349
01:02:42,920 –> 01:02:46,240
is a club for the intelligence
security communities, both

1350
01:02:46,240 –> 01:02:48,840
military and civilian, and
special Forces, along with other

1351
01:02:48,840 –> 01:02:52,000
organizations, individuals whose
work reflects the ethos of the

1352
01:02:52,000 –> 01:02:56,200
club, such as high threat, bomb
disposal and members drawn from

1353
01:02:56,200 –> 01:02:59,600
the psyops community.
We need to get ourselves down at

1354
01:02:59,800 –> 01:03:02,280
that club.
I want to have some drinks there

1355
01:03:02,280 –> 01:03:05,560
for sure.
The psyops community, there’s a

1356
01:03:05,600 –> 01:03:08,200
club for these people.
I wonder if your drinks just

1357
01:03:08,200 –> 01:03:11,760
come with LSD in them.
If you’re a visitor and they

1358
01:03:11,760 –> 01:03:14,320
just everyone watches you and
sees if they pick up any new

1359
01:03:14,320 –> 01:03:17,800
Intel, who knows?
I mean, he, he’s laid it out

1360
01:03:17,800 –> 01:03:19,400
there.
I think Peter wants the world to

1361
01:03:19,400 –> 01:03:21,040
know.
I I think he’s bored.

1362
01:03:21,160 –> 01:03:22,440
I think he’s in his late 80s
now.

1363
01:03:22,440 –> 01:03:25,560
I think I just want people to
know that I I think he’s proud

1364
01:03:25,560 –> 01:03:27,320
of being Jason Bourne.
I think he’s proud of all the

1365
01:03:27,320 –> 01:03:28,680
adventures he’s had.
Yeah, with some.

1366
01:03:29,400 –> 01:03:33,680
I mean, if you have enough of an
ego to put all those bread

1367
01:03:33,680 –> 01:03:37,160
crumbs and clues on your
website, I don’t doubt that when

1368
01:03:37,160 –> 01:03:40,880
you hit 8590, you’re going to be
like, fuck it, I’m telling

1369
01:03:40,880 –> 01:03:42,480
everyone everything.
What are you going to do?

1370
01:03:42,680 –> 01:03:44,240
I mean.
Please, I agree.

1371
01:03:44,240 –> 01:03:46,000
Please do it.
I agree.

1372
01:03:46,320 –> 01:03:49,920
I couldn’t agree more.
Yeah, I I would not doubt for a

1373
01:03:49,920 –> 01:03:52,320
second that, I mean, of course
he was CIA.

1374
01:03:52,360 –> 01:03:55,080
He’s got to be that’s.
MI6, CIA.

1375
01:03:55,240 –> 01:03:56,320
Yeah.
Something like that.

1376
01:03:56,720 –> 01:03:58,160
He’s probably working for all of
them.

1377
01:03:58,280 –> 01:04:01,480
I, I, you know, maybe even this,
you know, the KGB, who knows,

1378
01:04:01,480 –> 01:04:02,640
You know, that, that Castro
thing.

1379
01:04:02,640 –> 01:04:04,680
I, I just, I, I don’t know how
you pull that one off.

1380
01:04:04,680 –> 01:04:07,040
If if I had a drink with him in
his club, not I’d ever want to

1381
01:04:07,040 –> 01:04:09,200
go into a club that has science
people in it.

1382
01:04:09,480 –> 01:04:12,480
But if I ever did go in there,
I, I the first thing I’d ask is

1383
01:04:12,480 –> 01:04:14,280
how the fuck did you pull off
that Cuba thing?

1384
01:04:14,760 –> 01:04:16,600
Actually, it’s Castro’s
archives.

1385
01:04:16,640 –> 01:04:19,080
I mean, that’s just like, that’s
James Bond would be proud of

1386
01:04:19,080 –> 01:04:21,120
that one.
That’s just like incredible.

1387
01:04:21,440 –> 01:04:24,960
And I’m just to finish off poor
Al Lowenstein and my, my Brussel

1388
01:04:24,960 –> 01:04:26,880
thought this was a very telling
point was was buried in

1389
01:04:26,880 –> 01:04:31,960
Arlington, apparently between
JFK and RFK’s plots, you know,

1390
01:04:31,960 –> 01:04:35,520
which is very interesting.
And, you know, he was in the

1391
01:04:35,520 –> 01:04:38,920
military for a very short time
back in the early 60s, Hated it.

1392
01:04:39,400 –> 01:04:42,760
And apparently when he was in
Germany, he decided to have gone

1393
01:04:42,760 –> 01:04:46,760
for a few few days to go down to
the wedding of Prince Rainier

1394
01:04:46,760 –> 01:04:48,200
and Grace Kelly.
As one does.

1395
01:04:48,480 –> 01:04:50,840
As you do.
And and Prince Rainier, would,

1396
01:04:50,840 –> 01:04:54,200
you believe, wrote a book on
primates with Geoffrey Bourne.

1397
01:04:54,600 –> 01:04:57,360
How about that?
You want some links, Adam?

1398
01:04:57,440 –> 01:04:59,480
I’m going to give.
I’m going to give you all the

1399
01:04:59,480 –> 01:05:00,760
links.
It’s it’s a mini.

1400
01:05:00,840 –> 01:05:02,480
It’s a series.
We need to go to Netflix

1401
01:05:02,480 –> 01:05:03,440
tomorrow and pitch this.
Adam.

1402
01:05:03,440 –> 01:05:06,080
This is just, you know, awful.
This needs to be written.

1403
01:05:06,200 –> 01:05:06,640
Yeah.
Yeah.

1404
01:05:06,640 –> 01:05:08,800
Be hell of a series.
Yeah, I agree.

1405
01:05:08,840 –> 01:05:12,080
But in the meantime, thank you
for doing this podcast about it.

1406
01:05:12,120 –> 01:05:14,600
I appreciate.
I appreciate you reaching out

1407
01:05:14,840 –> 01:05:18,240
and suggesting this.
It’s a fascinating story.

1408
01:05:18,240 –> 01:05:22,080
I will link to the article in
the show notes so people can

1409
01:05:22,080 –> 01:05:24,400
read it.
Still a lot of meat on the bones

1410
01:05:24,560 –> 01:05:26,720
in terms of information in
there.

1411
01:05:26,800 –> 01:05:31,320
And yeah, thanks again for being
a guest on the pod.

1412
01:05:31,360 –> 01:05:34,720
What do you want people to know
or check out?

1413
01:05:34,840 –> 01:05:37,360
Where they can get my sub stack?
Really, you know, there’s

1414
01:05:37,360 –> 01:05:39,120
there’s this article there,
there’s lots of Lennon

1415
01:05:39,120 –> 01:05:42,200
assassination articles on
davidwhelan.substack.com.

1416
01:05:42,360 –> 01:05:44,600
Obviously, I think you talked
about my book at the start, Mind

1417
01:05:44,600 –> 01:05:47,120
games assassination John Lennon
still available on Amazon.

1418
01:05:47,120 –> 01:05:50,040
And and thank you Adam, so much.
I’ll be on a love chat with you.

1419
01:05:50,240 –> 01:05:52,440
It’s, you know, you don’t this
stuff’s dark.

1420
01:05:52,440 –> 01:05:54,360
And I love the way you don’t
take it too seriously because

1421
01:05:54,360 –> 01:05:56,960
that’s the only way you can get
through it, you know, otherwise

1422
01:05:56,960 –> 01:05:58,680
it’s.
Yeah, takes you down this stuff.

1423
01:05:58,680 –> 01:06:01,760
But.
But yeah, I hope more comes out

1424
01:06:01,760 –> 01:06:04,160
about Peter Baldwin and Mary
King and, you know, there’s,

1425
01:06:04,160 –> 01:06:05,160
there’s.
Yeah.

1426
01:06:05,160 –> 01:06:07,800
I I think, I think there’s gonna
be a lot more to come.

1427
01:06:07,800 –> 01:06:09,000
Yeah.
I just hope it comes out while

1428
01:06:09,000 –> 01:06:11,080
they’re still around, you know?
You know, it’s just like because

1429
01:06:11,080 –> 01:06:12,440
once you.
Want them to enjoy it?

1430
01:06:12,560 –> 01:06:13,920
You want them to enjoy their
fame.

1431
01:06:14,040 –> 01:06:16,080
And I think he would, yeah, I
think sounds.

1432
01:06:16,120 –> 01:06:20,280
Like it it sounds like.
As for me, my sub stack will be

1433
01:06:20,720 –> 01:06:24,320
back in action soon.
Adam toddbrown.substack.com I

1434
01:06:24,640 –> 01:06:28,040
had to have a tooth drilled with
no novocaine a couple weeks ago.

1435
01:06:28,800 –> 01:06:31,760
Like like they threatened to do
when you’re being tortured.

1436
01:06:31,880 –> 01:06:37,040
And man has it been a recovery.
But that’s awful.

1437
01:06:37,320 –> 01:06:39,360
Get back to it.
Just make sure you don’t start

1438
01:06:39,360 –> 01:06:41,400
hearing voices in your head.
Yeah, exactly.

1439
01:06:41,680 –> 01:06:43,160
Well, I think they were taking
it out.

1440
01:06:43,280 –> 01:06:45,240
I think I’ve.
All right, OK.

1441
01:06:45,480 –> 01:06:48,480
Carried out all my mentions so I
should stop voices now I.

1442
01:06:48,640 –> 01:06:50,920
I I thought you were doing a
Dennis Sweeney, Dennis dentist

1443
01:06:50,920 –> 01:06:52,720
gag, but that’s actually real.
You actually went through that.

1444
01:06:52,720 –> 01:06:54,080
That sounds awful.
Yeah, yeah.

1445
01:06:54,080 –> 01:06:57,840
I had to have a tooth pulled and
there was a thing happening

1446
01:06:57,840 –> 01:07:01,120
where my nerves were so inflamed
that they couldn’t numb the

1447
01:07:01,120 –> 01:07:02,640
tooth.
Dude, dude.

1448
01:07:02,640 –> 01:07:05,200
So.
They had to open it by drilling

1449
01:07:05,200 –> 01:07:09,920
into it so they could put
anesthesia right on the nerve.

1450
01:07:10,000 –> 01:07:12,840
And it was.
It was bad, bad times.

1451
01:07:12,880 –> 01:07:14,680
That’s, that’s brutal, man.
That’s brutal.

1452
01:07:14,680 –> 01:07:16,960
It was really bad.
I’m impressed.

1453
01:07:16,960 –> 01:07:18,440
You rack up a row in a week
later.

1454
01:07:18,440 –> 01:07:19,760
Jesus.
That’s it.

1455
01:07:20,320 –> 01:07:22,760
It has put me on a schedule for
sure.

1456
01:07:22,800 –> 01:07:23,920
Yeah.
Take a rest.

1457
01:07:24,120 –> 01:07:25,520
Take it easy.
Yeah.

1458
01:07:26,320 –> 01:07:28,280
And all right, let’s get out of
here.

1459
01:07:28,360 –> 01:07:30,080
David, say goodbye.
Goodbye.

1460
01:07:30,080 –> 01:07:32,000
Thanks, Adam.
Goodbye everybody, we love you.